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Bongo Bill posted:They're guerrillas rather than terrorists, I would say. The terms describe tactics. Whom are the rebels trying to terrorize? They are only ever seen attacking military targets. Agreed. The Rebels are always shown attacking the military and not civilians. We also see them fighting more conventionally, with uniformed soldiers in a military structure. They remind me more like the Continental Army in the American Revolution or the Confederacy in the Civil War rather than traditional terrorist groups.
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Mar 21, 2017 10:37
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thrawn527 posted:The Empire's goal is to rule through fear. Show me where the Republic ruled through the same of level fear as the Death Star. I find this a strange thing to ask for as they are the same thing, except one is (ironically) unmasked; the Phantom Menace exposed. You only have to look at the first few minutes of Episode One to see the Trade Federation executives react with fear when they discover that the "representatives" the Republic have sent to negotiate are in fact Jedi Knights. The negotiations will be short, because these Federation-types are cowards. The Empire's goal is to rule. Fear is merely an effective method through both Republic and Imperial periods (and beyond).
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Mar 21, 2017 12:47
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Illegal Clown posted:Agreed. The Rebels are always shown attacking the military and not civilians. We also see them fighting more conventionally, with uniformed soldiers in a military structure. They remind me more like the Continental Army in the American Revolution or the Confederacy in the Civil War rather than traditional terrorist groups. How would you characterize ISIL or FARC or the Kurdistan Worker's Party?
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Mar 21, 2017 15:32
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I would characterise the Kurdistan Worker's party, as very good
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Mar 21, 2017 15:43
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Alderaan was asking for it.  They pulled a Greedo Never pull a Greedo
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Mar 21, 2017 22:42
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Vinylshadow posted:
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Mar 21, 2017 23:16
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sassassin posted:I find this a strange thing to ask for as they are the same thing, except one is (ironically) unmasked; the Phantom Menace exposed. Is sending two guys who can fight the same as blowing up an entire planet? Because that's the question you were asked.
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Mar 21, 2017 23:21
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Mar 22, 2017 01:26
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Snowman_McK posted:Is sending two guys who can fight the same as blowing up an entire planet? Because that's the question you were asked. In the sense that they use fear to keep the systems in line? Not much. It's the same thought process, just writ large. Like, no, obviously sending two guys isn't "just as bad as" blowing up an entire planet, but it's still the same idea. Terrorize with violence or the threat of violence to maintain a backwards "order." The Death Star is a straight up evolution of this thinking. gently caress, Rogue One basically establishes that the Death Star is just a giant lightsaber.
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Mar 22, 2017 01:58
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The trick, of course, being that the Bad Guys have the giant grey spherical ship, so it has to be blown up by the Good Guys, with their small, colourful ships. Pointy Spaceships vs Round Spaceships, if you will.  Then over the course of the series the small, colourful ships become more war-like, until the heroes are piloting these:  The central component is almost identical to a TIE fighter, and the wing struts even make them look like Vader's 'advanced' version! The droid starfighters don't resemble X-Wings as closely, but they have an inkling of the split-wing design:  I think Cnut broke it down using the terms 'Apollonian' and 'Dionysian' but I don't know enough about those concepts to explain further.
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Mar 22, 2017 03:09
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The post about the yin-yang morphology between the Naboo/Republic and Trade Federation/Separations ships and war machines was really awesome. Someone should repost it.
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Mar 22, 2017 03:18
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Please stop posting pictures of Ted Cruz itt
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Mar 22, 2017 03:22
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DeimosRising posted:How would you characterize ISIL or FARC or the Kurdistan Worker's Party? ISIL somewhat reminds me of the First Order. It was the remnant of a fallen regime with experienced military and political leaders. It was allowed to expand in a power vacuum, and no one took it too seriously until it was almost too late. It also terrorizes civilian populations, including using weapons of mass destruction. The others are more like traditional insurgents. In Star Wars terms, maybe they would be like the unaffiliated Rebel groups, like Saw's, which were more extreme.
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Mar 22, 2017 03:51
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Detective No. 27 posted:The post about the yin-yang morphology between the Naboo/Republic and Trade Federation/Separations ships and war machines was really awesome. Someone should repost it. Was that Cnut? I'd also love to read it.
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Mar 22, 2017 03:51
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Threatening lovely space corporatists doesn't really seem like a bad thing to do though, really. Like remember that time Obama dressed down the bankers for golden parachutes (ignoring his later about-face on the issue)? That owned.
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Mar 22, 2017 05:47
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Mecha Gojira posted:In the sense that they use fear to keep the systems in line? Not much. There is nothing in the film that states or implies that the Jedi were there to intimidate them, or that the threat of their violence was the reason they were sent. The Jedi seemed to have a lot of different functions and skills. You are basing them being there to intimidate the Trade Federation with a threat of force on absolutely nothing in the film. Remember that Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan don't start the fight, they go in and sit down. We can't really draw any conclusions about how they would have actually negotiated since the Trade Federation tries to kill them in two different ways immediately upon their arrival. The fact that the Trade Federation literally trying to kill the negotiators and invading the planet is answered by a lengthy debate in the senate suggests that direct action is not really on the table. The other is pre-emptively blowing up an entire planet. It's really not the extension of the same idea at all.
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Mar 22, 2017 06:54
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Qui-Gon: These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. This is a causative statement, not a correlative one. Because the Federation are cowardly, the negotiations will be short. (Because we'll bully them into agreeing with us, we will get what we want.) (Fear will keep the local systems in line.) More telling is the extended visual reference to Forbidden Planet, where a monster attempts to burn through a thick blast door to kill the crew, except the monsters are the Jedi. "Where are those Droidekas?", Nute Gunray yells panickedly. (He's great, and I'm glad everything he says has become a meme.)
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Mar 22, 2017 07:47
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It's certainly preferable to intimidate dissenters with Jedi negotiators rather than blowing up planets with a Death Star. But then again, the Death Star is insignificant compared to the power wielded by the Jedi, and in the era of the Republic no one needed to be reminded of this fact. What they need is reassurance that they wont be slaugthered by the Jedi, and the only reason anyone does dare to rebel is the support of the Sith.
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Mar 22, 2017 08:16
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ungulateman posted:Qui-Gon: These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. That's assuming a causative leap that is barely even implied at the time and contradicted later. The Republic demonstrably does not have the capacity to bully, since they spend the rest of the movie dithering and emphatically not bullying. The two Neimodians on the ship are also demonstrably cowardly, and in fact resort to violence rather than negotiation. The more obvious implication is that they're not very good at negotiating. They are, in fact, the ones that attempt to bully rather than negotiate. 'They are cowards' and 'fear (of their planet being annihilated) will keep the local systems in line' are not the same positions, and they don't even rely on the same assumptions. One is a statement about another's flaws, the second is a statement about your own strength That also conflates, on a moral level, any assertiveness in negotiation with violent intimidation ungulateman posted:More telling is the extended visual reference to Forbidden Planet, where a monster attempts to burn through a thick blast door to kill the crew, except the monsters are the Jedi. The monsters who are reacting to a preemptive, violent attack, and are chased off by an escalated violent attack. The prequels do paint the republic as a pretty flawed place to say the least, but you're really, really stretching here. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 08:45
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The funny thing is, that scene actually does show that the people in the Empire/Republic were manipulating fearful people to get what they wanted. Except, like in all cases, it's Palpatine doing the manipulating to get what he wants.
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Mar 22, 2017 09:29
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Snowman_McK posted:There is nothing in the film that states or implies that the Jedi were there to intimidate them, or that the threat of their violence was the reason they were sent. Have you ever dealt with Jedi Knights before? ...Seal the blast doors!
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Mar 22, 2017 13:05
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sassassin posted:Have you ever dealt with Jedi Knights before? A reminder that this is said to avoid retaliation for attempting to kill them twice. And even after this (and a planetary invasion) the Neimodians aren't killed. poo poo, they don't even seem to do any prison time. The message of The Phantom Menace is not that it rules through fear or intimidation, but that it doesn't rule at all. That it's sluggish and ineffectual, not overbearing and ruthless.
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Mar 22, 2017 13:36
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Snowman_McK posted:A reminder that this is said to avoid retaliation for attempting to kill them twice. Just thinking about Nute.
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Mar 22, 2017 13:57
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Snowman_McK posted:And even after this (and a planetary invasion) the Neimodians aren't killed. poo poo, they don't even seem to do any prison time. Nute Gunray did 5 years of a 10 year sentence at a minimum security resort.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:03
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If you're not following Rebels there was a pretty amazing showdown this weekend and a nice closure on things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no4SxdIIDBE
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Mar 22, 2017 14:22
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Real lightsaber beats gimmick lightsaber, aw yeah.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:38
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"We've come to discuss trade." *Attempts to gas negoatiators* Goons: Gassing people who are trying to talk to you is a completely reasonable response.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:56
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Halloween Jack posted:Real lightsaber beats gimmick lightsaber, aw yeah. It's more than just that, Kenobi switches to Qui-gon's form/stance which baits Maul into trying the same "force them to block low then hilt bash to the face" move he killed Qui-gon with, because Maul is a battered old attack dog trying to relive his glory days.
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Mar 22, 2017 15:18
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Expanded Universe is on the whole terrible but I have to admit I like all the lightsaber martial arts geekery. Djem So Fo Sho.
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Mar 22, 2017 15:20
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When your negotiators are known to be armed bullies themselves. Remember, it's Sidious who tells them to just kill the Jedi. Otherwise they're just pissing themselves in panic. Again, Jedi are preferable to Death Star, but they both operate on the level of "fear will keep the systems in line." The Empire is a natural evolution of the Republic's ideology, not a "corruption" of it.
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Mar 22, 2017 15:26
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I don't really think the issue is whether or not gassing Jedi is a reasonable response, as much as it is an understandable response. They are rightfully terrified of Jedi and Sidious uses that fear against them, its kind of his go-to move. The Jedi should realize that they can't possibly be proper negotiators, but part of their blind spot is that they don't have a realistic understanding of what their role in society is. They want to be helpful in every single situation, but sometimes their presence only makes things worse.
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Mar 22, 2017 15:35
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Basebf555 posted:The Jedi should realize that they can't possibly be proper negotiators, but part of their blind spot is that they don't have a realistic understanding of what their role in society is. They want to be helpful in every single situation, but sometimes their presence only makes things worse. It's no mistake that they are a combination of samurai, knights and missionaries. They might have a high opinion of themselves, but other people rightfully feel threatened by them.
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Mar 22, 2017 16:31
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Curb Your Enthusiasm starring Nute Gunray make it happen Disney
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Mar 22, 2017 16:37
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I think it's important to remember by that point Jedi were acting officers of the law. And the Trade Federation was doing some shady poo poo. I don't think their fear is a fear of the Jedi being able to kill them then. It's more that they're breaking the law and the police just showed up.
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Mar 22, 2017 16:54
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Savidudeosoo posted:I think it's important to remember by that point Jedi were acting officers of the law. And the Trade Federation was doing some shady poo poo. Right, but what if all of the sudden all of the cops in your city were veteran Navy Seals who responded to calls in full tactical gear and military-style weapons? Sure, they're acting as officers of the law but is that really going to be of any importance when people feel like the Boogeyman is coming for them?
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Mar 22, 2017 16:58
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Savidudeosoo posted:I think it's important to remember by that point Jedi were acting officers of the law. And the Trade Federation was doing some shady poo poo. Cops is not really the right analogy for them, there are already cops, palace guards, personal entourages, etc. in the films. It would be like calling Imperial Stormtroopers cops. Kind of but not really.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:13
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Yorkshire Tea posted:"We've come to discuss trade." Wow, you're as bad at reading posts as movies.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:13
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Basebf555 posted:Right, but what if all of the sudden all of the cops in your city were veteran Navy Seals who responded to calls in full tactical gear and military-style weapons? Sure, they're acting as officers of the law but is that really going to be of any importance when people feel like the Boogeyman is coming for them? Maybe they wouldn't have to send the Navy Seals if you didn't blockade a peaceful planet with your warships.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:17
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Savidudeosoo posted:I think it's important to remember by that point Jedi were acting officers of the law. What is the law in Star Wars? Who decides? We come into the prequel trilogy from a set of films where The Law is The Empire, and one of our heroes is a drug smuggler. The Republic is corrupt and corruptible, both by malice and naivete. To say The Jedi are The Law and therefore The Jedi are Good, is not Star Wars.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:17
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Savidudeosoo posted:Maybe they wouldn't have to send the Navy Seals if you didn't blockade a peaceful planet with your warships. Send the Navy Seals in...to negotiate?
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Mar 22, 2017 17:18
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