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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:yeah, it's DSA's position too. Yes workers should receive what they actually make.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:25
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Condiv posted:because when asked how the party was gonna move left, she said "we are capitalists". that moving left to someone like bernie sanders anymore wouldn't be possible because he's not capitalist, he's socialist her answer was an explicit endorsement of this
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Mar 22, 2017 22:29
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes workers should receive what they actually make. I agree; Sanders is pretty clearly not talking about expropriating shareholder wealth in his endorsement of coops but like a SBA loan program
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Mar 22, 2017 22:30
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:her answer was an explicit endorsement of this i watched the video. she said capitalism had flaws and offered no solution to those flaws. this is when she was asked to move left, to admittedly capitalist senator bernie sanders' pov. and she said that we can't, because "we're capitalist"
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Mar 22, 2017 22:34
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I mean, gently caress, Sanders keeps pointing to the Nordic model, which sure as poo poo is capitalism.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:33
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I mean, gently caress, Sanders keeps pointing to the Nordic model, which sure as poo poo is capitalism. then why does nancy pelosi reject him for not being capitalist? that's why people are pissed about that answer.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:35
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Condiv posted:i watched the video. she said capitalism had flaws and offered no solution to those flaws. this is when she was asked to move left, to admittedly capitalist senator bernie sanders pov. and she said that we can't, because "we're capitalist" rewatch the video. she offered a solution: stakeholder capitalism
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Mar 22, 2017 22:36
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I mean, gently caress, Sanders keeps pointing to the Nordic model, which sure as poo poo is capitalism. Yes its a nice start.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:35
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Condiv posted:then why does nancy pelosi reject him for not being capitalist? that's why people are pissed about that answer. because you're projecting poo poo into her mouth?
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Mar 22, 2017 22:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes its a nice start. no, it really isn't. the crisis of capitalism is more than just "people can't afford healthcare and education", and having welfare liberalism as some kinda goal really is just dooming yourself to permanent second-class status under the stratospheric wealth of the .1%
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Mar 22, 2017 22:39
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Condiv posted:then why does nancy pelosi reject him for not being capitalist? that's why people are pissed about that answer. Did she? I'm not sure that she meant that as an explicit rejection of Sanders. I think it's important to keep in mind that, for an older generation of Americans, the world falls into a dichotomy: "capitalist" and "communist." Thanks to the Cold War, if you're not a communist, you're a capitalist, and vice-versa. (again, from the older generation's standpoint)
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Mar 22, 2017 22:40
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:rewatch the video. she offered a solution: stakeholder capitalism Which is a drat pipe dream as long as both major parties remain beholden to Wall Street. And guess who you're not allowed to upset according to the democratic establishment?
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Mar 22, 2017 22:40
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:no, it really isn't. Thats not my goal. Thats just an early step.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:42
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Crowsbeak posted:Thats not my goal. Thats just an early step. It's a dead end. It's why everyone talks about single payer being so great for businesses because they're gonna be spending less in taxes than they do on their employees' premiums. Or, to take up the frequent refrain of Democratic critics: why lead with a half-measure in a negotiation?
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Mar 22, 2017 22:47
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:It's a dead end. It's why everyone talks about single payer being so great for businesses because they're gonna be spending less in taxes than they do on their employees' premiums. Because calling for Full Communism Now is unlikely to attract more than a single-digit percentage of voters. But also because European-style social democracy is a demonstrable real-world example of an alternative to American capitalism actually functioning well.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:50
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Majorian posted:Because calling for Full Communism Now is unlikely to attract more than a single-digit percentage of voters. 
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Mar 22, 2017 22:52
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Majorian posted:Because calling for Full Communism Now is unlikely to attract more than a single-digit percentage of voters. The main issue with this is that European-style social democracy is also a demonstrable real world example of something the capitalist class will get hard at work dismantling the moment they feel they don't have to bribe the poor into compliance. It only works with the specter of communism hanging over your shoulder.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:59
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The Nordic model is an alternative to the US tax and redistribution scheme, not capitalism. Which is, as far as I can tell, why some socialists consider it bullshit compromise designed to paper over a doomed economic model and to prevent the formation of a revolutionary leftist class consciousness. ^^^ Like he said.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:59
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Please don't look to Europe for overaching examples, pick and choose what's cool but forget about social democracy, we're fast track on the way to dismantle that.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:03
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Agnosticnixie posted:The main issue with this is that European-style social democracy is also a demonstrable real world example of something the capitalist class will get hard at work dismantling the moment they feel they don't have to bribe the poor into compliance. It only works with the specter of communism hanging over your shoulder. Well, sure, but that's why far left parties need to start pressuring more mainstream parties. JeffersonClay posted:The Nordic model is an alternative to the US tax and redistribution scheme, not capitalism. But again, this brings up the issue of definitions. Is the European model an alternative to "capitalism," when capitalism is defined as "any market-based/non-command economic system"? No, of course not. Is it an alternative to American's version of capitalism, particularly when that version of capitalism is characterized by widespread deregulation? You bet it is, and one that most Americans would probably find attractive, at that. Fados posted:Please don't look to Europe for overaching examples, pick and choose what's cool but forget about social democracy, we're fast track on the way to dismantle that. I think that's honestly what most of us are thinking: emulating the policies, but not outright saying, "Hey, Americans, we want to do exactly what Europe is doing."
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Mar 22, 2017 23:05
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Majorian posted:Well, sure, but that's why far left parties need to start pressuring more mainstream parties. Sure, but then Pelosi's answer was ok
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Mar 22, 2017 23:17
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The defining features of capitalism are private ownership of the means of production and profits. I agree with you that the Nordic model is an alternative to laissez faire capitalism, but it's just more taxes, regulations, redistribution and services. All of which would benefit us--but whether or not they'd be popular is likely very dependent on the specific implementation. There's a lot of reason to conclude the withering of support for redistributive policies in the Nordic countries in the last decade is due to increased non-white immigration.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:21
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Sure, but then Pelosi's answer was ok I think it was a little tone-deaf, when the answer should have been, "Yes, the Democratic Party needs to focus on economic justice more than it has been in order to win back votes it has lost." But I didn't interpret it as an outright rejection of Sanders, or an endorsement of full-on free market capitalism. JeffersonClay posted:The defining features of capitalism are private ownership of the means of production and profits. I agree with you that the Nordic model is an alternative to laissez faire capitalism, but it's just more taxes, regulations, redistribution and services. All of which would benefit us--but whether or not they'd be popular is likely very dependent on the specific implementation. Of course, but that's the case with any policy alternative: its popularity is always going to be, in no small part, dependent on implementation. What we do know, however, are that broad-based social welfare programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and above all, Social Security, are very popular in the U.S. I don't think a lack of public support for strengthening and expanding these programs is the issue here.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:25
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:no, it really isn't. Oh gently caress off. You're acting like there is no form or system that can allow income inequality that doesn't automatically go straight to one old white guy owning all the money, and that all regulation and taxation will be meaningless before their unstoppable power.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:26
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Agnosticnixie posted:The main issue with this is that European-style social democracy is also a demonstrable real world example of something the capitalist class will get hard at work dismantling the moment they feel they don't have to bribe the poor into compliance. It only works with the specter of communism hanging over your shoulder. Yes but is there any set of reforms that this criticism wouldn't apply to?
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Mar 22, 2017 23:41
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Remember when Hillary said "No we can't" for a year and a half and then lost miserably? How about we don't do that and actually push for good stuff that people can get behind?
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Mar 23, 2017 00:37
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Fulchrum posted:Oh gently caress off. You're acting like there is no form or system that can allow income inequality that doesn't automatically go straight to one old white guy owning all the money, and that all regulation and taxation will be meaningless before their unstoppable power. I'm not; there's plenty of ways that American capitalism can be made "kinder and gentler" without abandoning capitalism. Sanders ran on one; Pelosi mentioned another.
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Mar 23, 2017 00:49
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Frijolero posted:Remember when Hillary said "No we can't" for a year and a half and then lost miserably? Even if we know it can't happen? Hillary treated voters like adults, Trump treated them like children, mainly cause he has the mind of a toddler. If we're just going to ignore political reality and pretend that there is a handy easy foolproof way to do these things, then all its gonna do is cause people to call the dems sellouts and backstabbers whenever the stars fail to align.
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Mar 23, 2017 01:18
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I'm not; there's plenty of ways that American capitalism can be made "kinder and gentler" without abandoning capitalism. Sanders ran on one; Pelosi mentioned another. Ah, okay, I misinterpreted. Mea culpa.
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Mar 23, 2017 01:19
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The political reality is that Democrats have lost what, 1000+ seats at Federal and State levels since Obama was elected and Annointed Successor lost an election to Donald J. Trump by having the 'Blue Wall' shattered. Seems pretty clear to me that the Democrats current policy of GOP-lite isn't working and if the answer isn't 'go left' then there isn't a reason for the Democrats to run.
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Mar 23, 2017 02:49
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Proud Christian Mom posted:The political reality is that Democrats have lost what, 1000+ seats at Federal and State levels since Obama was elected and Annointed Successor lost an election to Donald J. Trump by having the 'Blue Wall' shattered. Seems pretty clear to me that the Democrats current policy of GOP-lite isn't working and if the answer isn't 'go left' then there isn't a reason for the Democrats to run. If you want to invoke political reality bandying around crap like GOP-lite does not help.
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Mar 23, 2017 03:02
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Fulchrum posted:If you want to invoke political reality bandying around crap like GOP-lite does not help. right-o back to plugging our ears and humming loudly whenever someone points out how hosed the party is
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Mar 23, 2017 03:23
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Fulchrum posted:Even if we know it can't happen? And we're back to "Hillary was a cool adult, Trump is a baby dummy." Hillary was a neoliberal snore, while Trump promised jobs. Nobody faults LBJ for promising too much. He's admired for doing as much as he could in the amount of time he had. We didn't get a Great Society or complete equal rights, but we got social programs and civil protections. Hillary promised gently caress-all and lost. How do Hillary fanboys and centrist Democrats not understand that people have to like you and what you stand for in order to win elections???
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Mar 23, 2017 04:17
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Frijolero posted:And we're back to "Hillary was a cool adult, Trump is a baby dummy." because they've warped their thinking till the cart is in front of the horse. voters have to vote regularly as a politician to see benefit. dems are owed your vote by default and will cater to you once you vote enough
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Mar 23, 2017 04:23
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Frijolero posted:And we're back to "Hillary was a cool adult, Trump is a baby dummy." Obama and Clinton both made big promises, why not go to them? Oh yeah, because you keep consistently callung them neoliberal shills and backstabbers for (drumroll please) making promises they were unable to keep. In fact, Obama failing to live up to his promises is the number one justification given by leftists for extreme lack of turnout in 2010. Also, Hillary promised jobs that could actually exist and took more than 5 words to explain. Trump said he'd bring obsolete jobs back. Stop treating anyone who voted Trump as if they're not a chimp. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 04:25
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Fulchrum posted:You know, that you can never once point to someone who was elected within the last half a century (and thus you in any way experienced the leadership of) as a sign you dont attack anyone who has to work with reality does speak volumes. Cool fantasy you've made for yourself. Obama promised jack poo poo and delivered on jack poo poo. Leftists don't fault him for big promises. We fault him for being a centrist hack. Remember the Grand Bargain? Leftists and progressives do...
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Mar 23, 2017 04:30
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Frijolero posted:Cool fantasy you've made for yourself. I like how you're just straight up reinventing the past to match what you want to believe now. Very Ingsoc. You'd make a good Republican. I also like how you're switching tracks so fast you've completely derailed your own argument. So Obama promised absolutely nothing. Well, guess this means your claim that voters need to love what you promise just got destroyed. Oh and, you remember the grand bargain. Way to go, you just noticed political reality. And having to deal, or even try to deal, with that political reality, makes him a centrist hack. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 04:33
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Fulchrum posted:Stop treating anyone who voted Trump as if they're not a chimp. You're a loving doofus.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:38
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Mar 23, 2017 04:39
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POLITICAL REALISM 
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Mar 23, 2017 04:40
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