EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

orange sky posted:

I'm not saying the EU should somehow magically make all our wages bigger. I just don't think it is at all fair to call the EU a great union when such differences are allowed to exist and on top of that we get all the bad rep, we're the "lazy ones". gently caress that labeling, our lives are extremely poo poo compared to people the other countries'.

Making wages higher in the Southern countries is exactly what the EU did

Compare that to before EU

EU did nothing but raise wages.
However, it did not raise productivity. That's the real issue. As long as labour productivity in the Southern countries is low, it doesn't matter. Note that this has nothing to do with being lazy, it is everything to do with industrial composition and capital usage in production.

Nevertheless, if we want higher wages, we have to raise productivity first.

NihilismNow posted:

And the Greek/Portugese camp in this thread sure seems to disagree that they are better off than before they joined.

Well you know by every economic indicator including wages, GDP, GDP per capita, product choice, innovation, public spending, access to capital markets etc. they would most certainly be wrong. Indeed in many categories these things have easily doubled.

The issue is instead that there's more than a hunch that things could have been significantly better if the recovery would have been handled differently.

Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:01

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# ? May 14, 2024 10:29

9-Volt Assault: Jan 27, 2007; Beter twee tetten in de hand dan tien op de vlucht.

That are some extremely lovely graphs.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:03

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

thanks, I am doing my very best

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:08

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Define your axes!

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:39

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Hey could you clarify something about those graphs? Are they inflation adjusted? What are the sources?

I am asking because it is very clear that what happened in Spain was that German and French banks were placing money with Spanish banks that were gambling on the real state bubble. That made it so that Spanish banks would lend you money over the phone (first hand account). The wider supply of money and the real state bubble made for a lot of GDP growth and a lot of inflation, but I have seen graphs saying that, adjusted for inflation, salaries didn't raise. I saw them once, I won't know until I have time to do some reaserch and graph hunting myself.

So could you clarify that for me I'd be grateful.

Thanks

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:43

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

caps on caps on caps posted:

EU did nothing but raise wages.
However, it did not raise productivity. That's the real issue. As long as labour productivity in the Southern countries is low, it doesn't matter. Note that this has nothing to do with being lazy, it is everything to do with industrial composition and capital usage in production.

Nevertheless, if we want higher wages, we have to raise productivity first.

The funny thing about that is that there have been gigantic gains in productivity in the last 40 years but wages for working class had barely kept up with inflation even before the crisis, now they're back to 1995 levels so in effect all wage gains by the lower class in the last couple of decades were wiped out in 5 years and yet our "chamber of industry" is still clamoring for lower wages.

Also of note is that while the worker's wages haven't moved an inch our managerial class is now earning above the EU average because "it's the only way to keep highly educated professionals from leaving the country". And such a great job they do! Very productive! Now, I admit I don't have an MBA but it looks to me like the problem with our productivity lies not in the workers but in the managers but what do I know.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 15:48

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

caps on caps on caps posted:

Well you know by every economic indicator including wages, GDP, GDP per capita, product choice, innovation, public spending, access to capital markets etc. they would most certainly be wrong. Indeed in many categories these things have easily doubled.

You forgot unemployment.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 16:05

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

Well unemployment easily Doubled too so at least the increases are consistent.

Also anedocte time i worked for a German multinacional Both in Portugal and germany in the same position,and while the wage gap is Real in my case it was around 20-25% which isnt that hard to justify because the cost of living is greater in germany than in Portugal.the really cool stuff was that the company sold my services at the same cost per hour as my German colleagues while having lower costs.so the extra profit was used to subsidize the German worker,which is all cool and good and solidarity and stuff and one of the main reasons i laugh really hard everytime someone says they are tired of paying for the lazy southerners way of life.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 17:27

Zudgemud: Mar 1, 2009; Grimey Drawer

ChainsawCharlie posted:

Well unemployment easily Doubled too so at least the increases are consistent.

Also anedocte time i worked for a German multinacional Both in Portugal and germany in the same position,and while the wage gap is Real in my case it was around 20-25% which isnt that hard to justify because the cost of living is greater in germany than in Portugal.the really cool stuff was that the company sold my services at the same cost per hour as my German colleagues while having lower costs.so the extra profit was used to subsidize the German worker,which is all cool and good and solidarity and stuff and one of the main reasons i laugh really hard everytime someone says they are tired of paying for the lazy southerners way of life.

More anecdotes, I was on a short course in Portugal, people in my position there made 1/3 of my Scandinavian salary. In hindsight the optimal choice would have been to hire a Portuguese underling to increase my productivity.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 18:00

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

Dawncloack posted:

Hey could you clarify something about those graphs? Are they inflation adjusted? What are the sources?

I am asking because it is very clear that what happened in Spain was that German and French banks were placing money with Spanish banks that were gambling on the real state bubble. That made it so that Spanish banks would lend you money over the phone (first hand account). The wider supply of money and the real state bubble made for a lot of GDP growth and a lot of inflation, but I have seen graphs saying that, adjusted for inflation, salaries didn't raise. I saw them once, I won't know until I have time to do some reaserch and graph hunting myself.

So could you clarify that for me I'd be grateful.

Thanks

I google imagesearched them but afaik it's changes in real wages. As you can see those took a dip post 2010 for Greece which actually continues down further until today.

Here is another graph with axis

Just to go back to my point. It's not that real wages are cool now, it's that this substantial increase of real wages (especially for Greece historically) was not fundamentally stable. I quoted the notion that real wages should increase. If that is not to lead to a new crisis, it has to go in accordance with labour productivity.

MeLKoR posted:

The funny thing about that is that there have been gigantic gains in productivity in the last 40 years but wages for working class had barely kept up with inflation even before the crisis, now they're back to 1995 levels so in effect all wage gains by the lower class in the last couple of decades were wiped out in 5 years and yet our "chamber of industry" is still clamoring for lower wages.

Also of note is that while the worker's wages haven't moved an inch our managerial class is now earning above the EU average because "it's the only way to keep highly educated professionals from leaving the country". And such a great job they do! Very productive! Now, I admit I don't have an MBA but it looks to me like the problem with our productivity lies not in the workers but in the managers but what do I know.

Why are they back to 1995 levels? At least unit labour costs in Greece (which has the highest wage loss) seems to be still 15% higher than in 1999?

ChainsawCharlie posted:

Well unemployment easily Doubled too so at least the increases are consistent.

Also anedocte time i worked for a German multinacional Both in Portugal and germany in the same position,and while the wage gap is Real in my case it was around 20-25% which isnt that hard to justify because the cost of living is greater in germany than in Portugal.the really cool stuff was that the company sold my services at the same cost per hour as my German colleagues while having lower costs.so the extra profit was used to subsidize the German worker,which is all cool and good and solidarity and stuff and one of the main reasons i laugh really hard everytime someone says they are tired of paying for the lazy southerners way of life.

Well there are two things here.
First, there is a huge supply of labor in the south as opposed to in Germany. You can see this in Germany by looking at start-up wages, which are drat low, because mostly foreigners work in these lovely contracts. And because eeeeverybody from Spain now works in Berlin, but does not have access to the regular German labor market (it's language and yes it's true), there are about 500 candidates for every startup position, taking mostly paid internship positions because I guess wages are still better than at home. Additionally though this has lead to skill deflation as qualified people move to regular companies because of the poo poo conditions.

Second, as I said before, on an aggregate level the labor per cost productivity in the North is higher than in the South.
So in your example, YOUR "labor productivity" is actually way above the German one. Congrats - you should get higher wages and the Germans should lose their jobs. But on aggregate this has not been true.
Hence, it is essentially correct that wages are higher. Labor productivity is however not useful to describe actual people and "effort" or something, because, well, it's just a ratio influenced by lots of things.

So basically on an individual basis there is probably no good reason for lower wages, certainly not from a moral perspective.
But on an economy scope, it would be strange if it were otherwise, because then Portugese wages per unit would be many times higher than Germans, which was exactly what happened before the crisis. Basically, a Portugese would get twice as much for every car produced than a German. And this doesn't really work forever when companies can move somewhere else (for example Germany or France).
This example also shows that the argument about unit labor cost is really not at all about effort or skill, but industrial composition, infrastructure and finally regulatory efficiency.

So that's what needs to change.

Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 18:40

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Zudgemud posted:

More anecdotes, I was on a short course in Portugal, people in my position there made 1/3 of my Scandinavian salary. In hindsight the optimal choice would have been to hire a Portuguese underling to increase my productivity.

Reminds me of that American programmer who outsourced his jobs to some Chinese dudes for 1/5 of his pay.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 18:43

orange sky: May 7, 2007

caps on caps on caps posted:

So basically on an individual basis there is probably no good reason for lower wages, certainly not from a moral perspective.
But on an economy scope, it would be strange if it were otherwise, because then Portugese wages per unit would be many times higher than Germans, which was exactly what happened before the crisis. Basically, a Portugese would get twice as much for every car produced than a German. And this doesn't really work forever when companies can move somewhere else (for example Germany or France).

I agree with a lot of what you said but this paragraph.... Ahahahahahahahahahah. Right.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

Filter for Germany and Portugal and tell me how that difference is justified.

Also, great to see that once austerity tanked any kind of convergence tanked.

orange sky fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 18:44

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

well I am not entirely verbose on unit labor costs, productivity and wages but the basic argument goes through either way tho

orange sky posted:

I agree with a lot of what you said but this paragraph.... Ahahahahahahahahahah. Right.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

Filter for Germany and Portugal and tell me how that difference is justified.

Also, great to see that once austerity tanked any kind of convergence tanked.

This is not a helpful measure imo because it depends on the country production which is not the relevant indicator for competitiveness (it also depends on how much one works etc). You wanna look at unit labour costs (or labor compensation per hour worked which shows the same picture in this case). Companies are comparing productivity between Greece and Germany, that's what I was saying.

here (real unit labour costs)

Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 18:47

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

caps on caps on caps posted:

well I am not entirely verbose on unit labor costs, productivity and wages but the basic argument goes through either way tho

This is not a helpful measure imo because it depends on the country production which is not the relevant indicator for competitiveness (it also depends on how much one works etc). You wanna look at unit labour costs (or labor compensation per hour worked which shows the same picture in this case). Companies are comparing productivity between Greece and Germany, that's what I was saying.

here (real unit labour costs)

It'd really help if you had some charts that directly compared the wages in different countries instead of just how they grew from where they were.

If someone was making 100 in constant Euros before the EU and is making 105 in costant Euros now, he is still ahead of the guy who was making 10 euros and now makes 15.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 19:21

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

caps on caps on caps posted:

well I am not entirely verbose on unit labor costs, productivity and wages but the basic argument goes through either way tho

This is not a helpful measure imo because it depends on the country production which is not the relevant indicator for competitiveness (it also depends on how much one works etc). You wanna look at unit labour costs (or labor compensation per hour worked which shows the same picture in this case). Companies are comparing productivity between Greece and Germany, that's what I was saying.

here (real unit labour costs)

Is it inflation? It looks to me like the rest of eurozone countries mostly follow inflation to keep income stable while germany remained stagnant (thereby sacrificing real wage for price competitiveness)

# ? Mar 23, 2017 19:21

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

caps on caps on caps posted:

well I am not entirely verbose on unit labor costs, productivity and wages but the basic argument goes through either way tho

This is not a helpful measure imo because it depends on the country production which is not the relevant indicator for competitiveness (it also depends on how much one works etc). You wanna look at unit labour costs (or labor compensation per hour worked which shows the same picture in this case). Companies are comparing productivity between Greece and Germany, that's what I was saying.

here (real unit labour costs)

The Germans should be screaming bloody murder lol

# ? Mar 23, 2017 19:23

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

double nine posted:

Is it inflation? It looks to me like the rest of eurozone countries mostly follow inflation to keep income stable while germany remained stagnant (thereby sacrificing real wage for price competitiveness)

No these are real aka without inflation

fishmech posted:

It'd really help if you had some charts that directly compared the wages in different countries instead of just how they grew from where they were.

If someone was making 100 in constant Euros before the EU and is making 105 in costant Euros now, he is still ahead of the guy who was making 10 euros and now makes 15.

You can do that on the OECD site, looks about the same aka Germany is below everyone but Japan before the crisis

edit: not before the Euro tho
The Euro made Southern countries less competitive and give comparably higher wages. Which was not a good deal for the Southern countries as it turns out.

Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 23, 2017

# ? Mar 23, 2017 19:30

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

caps on caps on caps posted:

This example also shows that the argument about unit labor cost is really not at all about effort or skill, but industrial composition, infrastructure and finally regulatory efficiency.

Why change any of that when you can just slash wages and people will either take it or starve?

# ? Mar 23, 2017 21:54

ded redd: Aug 1, 2010

https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/844916664382767106

I mean, sure, no poo poo, but still...

# ? Mar 23, 2017 22:34

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

Office Pig posted:

https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/844916664382767106

I mean, sure, no poo poo, but still...

The FN has never really been subtle about their russian ties, they're basically bankrolled through the Russian ambassador.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 23:00

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Has GaussianCopula explained to us that electing Le Pen as president would simply be market forces at work and therefore the optimal outcome of the election, yet?

# ? Mar 24, 2017 00:15

orange sky: May 7, 2007

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Has GaussianCopula explained to us that electing Le Pen as president would simply be market forces at work and therefore the optimal outcome of the election, yet?

no but he thinks whoever pays more taxes should have more votes so there's that

kind of a co2 tax but the retarded fascist version

# ? Mar 24, 2017 00:20

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

orange sky posted:

no but he thinks whoever pays more taxes should have more votes so there's that

kind of a co2 tax but the retarded fascist version

Well it's only obvious that the great wealthy leaders who emerge from the incredible and inspiring level playing field that is modern meritocratic liberal society have the most influence in democracy to make up for the lack of power they have to change the world for the better whilst only wielding crappy economic power through the businesses, media organisations and thinktanks.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 00:26

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Has GaussianCopula explained to us that electing Le Pen as president would simply be market forces at work and therefore the optimal outcome of the election, yet?

GaussianCopula is a German bourgeois nationalist, he backs whichever candidate is more likely to align with German business interests, not other countries' nationalists.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 00:46

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

yeah GC is a huge fanboy of that independent banker dude

# ? Mar 24, 2017 10:01

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

I'm nearly convinced that GC is Dijsselbloem's personal account.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 12:09

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

orange sky posted:

no but he thinks whoever pays more taxes should have more votes so there's that

kind of a co2 tax but the retarded fascist version

He's just nostalgic for the old Prussian system. It's heritage! :v:

# ? Mar 24, 2017 15:32

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

orange sky posted:

no but he thinks whoever pays more taxes should have more votes so there's that

kind of a co2 tax but the retarded fascist version

You are aware that this was not a 100% serious proposal in the context of other people demanding that the votes of young people should be weighted stronger?

Goa Tse-tung posted:

yeah GC is a huge fanboy of that independent banker dude

Nah, first of all he is French and second he was a minister under Hollande and thereby guilty of aiding and abetting the Greek government in the summer of 2015. But, to be honest, the Putin lovers Fillon and LePen are even worse and that one guy who wants to tax robots, no thanks, so I guess Macron it is.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 16:48

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Hungary wants to ban Heineken due to their red star in the logo:

quote:

Viktor Orban�s government proposes tit-for-tat measure after Dutch beer maker won trademark case against similarly named brand favoured by Hungarians

The famous red star logo of Dutch beer Heineken could be banned in Hungary under a government proposal seeking to prohibit the commercial use of �totalitarian� symbols.

The draft law was introduced this week by the ruling Fidesz party of hardline rightwing prime minister Viktor Orban, ostensibly to outlaw merchandise featuring symbols like the Nazi swastika or the communist five-pointed red star.

But it is seen as a tit-for-tat reaction to Heineken winning a trademark dispute over a beer that is sold in Romania to ethnic Hungarians.

�If the bill goes through it will be forbidden to use symbols of totalitarian regimes such as national socialism or communism,� said Janos Lazar, Orban�s chief of staff.

The government said it had a �moral obligation� to Hungarians who had suffered �under Nazi and Bolshevik reigns of terror�.

Anyone in breach of the proposed law could face a fine of 2bn forint (�6.5m) and two years� jail.

Heineken insisted its logo had �no political meaning whatsoever� and that it dated back to medieval European brewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/24/hungary-threatens-to-ban-heineken-star-logo-as-communist
:laffo:

They should ban it on the grounds of being lovely beer :smug:

# ? Mar 24, 2017 16:54

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

Truly, people become what they hate most.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 17:33

I Love Annie May: Oct 10, 2012

GaussianCopula posted:

You are aware that this was not a 100% serious proposal in the context of other people demanding that the votes of young people should be weighted stronger?

Yeah sure man, you were just :airquote:

pretending :airquote:

to be a huge piece of poo poo and support ideas so outdated that even a monarchist would reject. But don't worry, we'll just look the other side and pretend you're a giant retard instead of a genuine fuckhead. Your secret will be safe with us.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 17:35

orange sky: May 7, 2007

Soooo how are the french voters gonna react to this https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/845260656773386240

# ? Mar 24, 2017 17:37

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

orange sky posted:

Soooo how are the french voters gonna react to this https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/845260656773386240

'who cares"

# ? Mar 24, 2017 17:42

lost in postation: Aug 14, 2009

orange sky posted:

Soooo how are the french voters gonna react to this https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/845260656773386240

I think it's likely to please her core electorate (the French alt-right, for lack of a better term) and probably won't reach the ears of the wider "I just don't care very much for Maghrebis" pond life that comprises the rest of her voters.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 17:49

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

lost in postation posted:

(the French alt-right, for lack of a better term

"La fachosphere" (term coined in the early 2000s).

# ? Mar 24, 2017 19:00

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

It's dubious that anything she can say can make her drop particularly hard since 20-25% has been a fairly stable first round FN vote for decades now.

Also everyone knows already, it's not like her opinions on Russia are a secret.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 19:49

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

I think shes saying that the world is ruled by a insecure sociopath and a racist narcisist so why not vote for lê pen and get a little bit of both.

# ? Mar 24, 2017 20:04

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

orange sky posted:

Soooo how are the french voters gonna react to this https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/845260656773386240

"Pfffffffffffffft foreign mode is so gauche, real frenchmen and frenchwomen follow french trend, not dumb american and russian trend What are you a pro atlantic lapdog or some kind of old school communist?"

# ? Mar 24, 2017 20:13

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

ChainsawCharlie posted:

I think shes saying that the world is ruled by a insecure sociopath and a racist narcisist so why not vote for lê pen and get a little bit of both.

i can't tell which is which

# ? Mar 24, 2017 21:23

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# ? May 14, 2024 10:29

Sneaks McDevious: Jul 29, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Fillon has actually jumped the shark

# ? Mar 24, 2017 21:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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