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is spunky arguing against a strawman or the real left. i cant tell anymore. i hope everyone dies
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Mar 24, 2017 20:15
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I don't get what is even being said though. Is there some manual every cop and judge reads that says "Destroy the blacks". Are these all white people doing it to black people? Are all judges white? Are all cops white? It's not white people out there being evil and going "haha gently caress blacks!" it's just the internalized racist stuff all over the place encouraging bias in our justice system. Like when JonTron says "black people just commit more crimes that's why they are jailed more no matter what social status or wealth level" and someone grows up believing it bc hey other people agree with that too and they seem reasonable and that someone becomes a cop. That person might not really be a racist KKK member or anything, he might even have the best of intentions... nonetheless he was taught there are "good ones" and "bad ones" and acts accordingly without even realizing it maybe. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 20:16
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I don't get what is even being said though. Is there some manual every cop and judge reads that says "Destroy the blacks". Are these all white people doing it to black people? Are all judges white? Are all cops white? As for police - officers for example often rely on a sort of incident heat maps that guide them in forming their patrol routes, recommend precautions etc. These maps - and the algorithms used to evaluate them - take into account past confrontations and encourage the police to be more vigilant and more indiscriminate in using force. This is on the surface logical, but it creates a spiral of positive feedback. Since black neighborhoods have a history of incidents involving cops, they show up as potentially dangerous. This prompts police to be more present in those areas, and more likely to confront locals. Thus the area generates even more incidents, and becomes evaluated as even more risky, and therefore subject to more severe treatment, and so on. In this way the black community becomes, originally due to its historical disadvantages which made it poor, underdeveloped and suffering from crime, victim of police abuse even though the system is explicitly constructed not to make decisions based on race, and rather operate on objective data. There are also various police doctrines, like the broken window theory, which have led police to purposefully victimize specific communities, also creating this vicious cycle. Here the problem is, again, that black communities are historically more likely to be poor and underfunded than white communities for reasons that are explicitly racist, so when law enforcement equates material destitution with moral failings, it creates an implicit racial bias by not accounting for this historical injustice. Now, you may retreat to the "it's only about class" argument, but the fact is that minorities are much over represented in lower classes compared to than whites, and more likely to form broad impoverished communities, because of reasons that indisputably have to do with race. The legacy of an era when black people were openly discriminated against because of their race is today institutionalized in the supposedly non-racial policing of today, which has grandfathered in all the negative effects of racist attitudes without examining them. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 20:18
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Moridin920 posted:It's not white people out there being evil and going "haha gently caress blacks!" it's just the internalized racist stuff all over the place encouraging bias in our justice system. Internalized racism in what sense, these cops and judges are all individual actors making their own decisions, what needs to happen for these cops and judges to not be racist? Like what needs to change to fix it
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Mar 24, 2017 20:21
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steinrokkan posted:As for police - officers for example often rely on a sort of incident heat maps that guide them in forming their patrol routes, recommend precautions etc. These maps - and the algorithms used to evaluate them - take into account past confrontations and encourage the police to be more vigilant and more indiscriminate in using force. This is on the surface logical, but it creates a spiral of positive feedback. Since black neighborhoods have a history of incidents involving cops, they show up as potentially dangerous. This prompts police to be more present in those areas, and more likely to confront locals. Thus the area generates even more incidents, and becomes evaluated as even more risky, and therefore subject to more severe treatment, and so on. In this way the black community becomes, originally due to its historical disadvantages which made it poor, underdeveloped and suffering from crime, victim of police abuse even though the system is explicitly constructed not to make decisions based on race, and rather operate on objective data. I agree, and I think the blacks were hosed by globalism taking their jobs away I wanted to say this too (what you said) but it would sound racist from my perspective
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Mar 24, 2017 20:23
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:Internalized racism in what sense, these cops and judges are all individual actors making their own decisions, what needs to happen for these cops and judges to not be racist? Like what needs to change to fix it Well for example in the example in the post above yours cops might reasonably assume "well poo poo man black people are just way more likely to commit crimes I guess" based on the heat maps and data they are looking at and act accordingly and give black people less of a break than they would for a white person doing the same thing. They're not bad people, they don't hate black people, they just are acting based on an erroneous set of data thinking it is accurate. What needs to change? I'm not sure really. More community policing would help for sure. Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I wanted to say this too (what you said) but it would sound racist from my perspective Why would that all sound racist from your perspective? No reasonable person is going to say that post is a racist post. e: well yeah maybe don't say "the blacks" haha Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 20:23
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we need to make it clear to white people that they are the problem and we need to tell minorities its not their fault
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Mar 24, 2017 20:25
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I agree, and I think the blacks were hosed by globalism taking their jobs away Spunky Psycho Ho posted:the blacks
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Mar 24, 2017 20:25
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Moridin920 posted:Well for example in the example in the post above yours cops might reasonably assume "well poo poo man black people are just way more likely to commit crimes I guess" based on the heat maps and data they are looking at and act accordingly and give black people less of a break than they would for a white person doing the same thing. They're not bad people, they don't hate black people, they just are acting based on an erroneous set of data thinking it is accurate. To say that maybe judges and cops see a endless string of blacks come their way and it creates a vicious cycle
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Mar 24, 2017 20:25
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this too. we do this enough chelsea clinton will be president 2020
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Mar 24, 2017 20:26
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:To say that maybe judges and cops see a endless string of blacks come their way and it creates a vicious cycle It's only racist if you then go on and say "and they see an endless string of black ppl because black ppl commit more crimes bc they are black" while ignoring the feedback loop mentioned and the economic situation and etc. Which you aren't so it's not racist. The difference is that JonTron said "see black people just commit more crimes regardless of social status or wealth" bc he is actually racist. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 20:27
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moridin do you really think your arguments are getting through to either side
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Mar 24, 2017 20:28
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:To say that maybe judges and cops see a endless string of blacks come their way and it creates a vicious cycle Yo dawg, I know you might not agree, but black people are, you know, people and should be referred to as such.
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Mar 24, 2017 20:30
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I like to give Spunky poo poo but he seems more or less reasonable. Either way all I know for sure is that I've only got 2 more hours before I can get outta this bitch start that weekend. e: to be fair to Spunky I don't think he means blacks in that way  He's just typing.
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Mar 24, 2017 20:29
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Who What Now posted:Yo dawg, I know you might not agree, but black people are, you know, people and should be referred to as such. actually "people" is dehumanizing and racist since it denies individuality. they are persons
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Mar 24, 2017 20:32
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Moridin920 posted:I like to give Spunky poo poo but he seems more or less reasonable. I honestly think that living in the north and also a city like Chicago which is 1/3 black 1/3 white 1/3 hispanic has tainted my perspective, because when I recently went to the south, it felt more racist there
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Mar 24, 2017 20:32
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Mercrom posted:moridin do you really think your arguments are getting through to either side
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Mar 24, 2017 20:33
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Yeah I don't think he means it in that way either but I love picturing him as a Southern gentleman now, sipping a julep in the sunshine. that's just funny
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Mar 24, 2017 20:33
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The South is a mystery all unto its own
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Mar 24, 2017 20:34
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Ultimately to solve these problems, and to see racial ones diminish, we need to balloon the middle class and expand it immensely.
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Mar 24, 2017 20:39
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I agree but also eat the rich imo
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Mar 24, 2017 20:41
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Hell yeah I think we can all agree. Eat the rich, eat the rich!
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Mar 24, 2017 20:43
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Its globalism i tells ya
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Mar 24, 2017 20:45
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Stick Figure Mafia posted:videogame man said a swear page 1 of 400
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Mar 24, 2017 20:55
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racism is a deeply interconnected web of social and economic issues and ideas of "race" and "certain races are better than others" have dominated various influential cultures for literal centuries so, saying, "how do you solve it?" is tough. there are dozens of probably necessary solutions targeting different vectors of how racism propagates both in institutions and in the culture, and a lot of them are pretty hard to see because we're raised with stuff like, "there are black people and white people, and they are two distinct categories that differ in these ways" as part of the assumptive cultural worldview. a lot of it is economic, but it isn't just economic. there are plenty of studies and reaction tests that show that the faces of commonly discriminated against ethnic minorities evoke fewer feelings of empathy and more feelings of anger or fear in white study participants, for instance. there is an ingrained social prejudice, and while economic disenfranchisement is HUGELY important to racism and is maybe even the origin of racism (people other-ing another group because they want justification to colonise them and take their stuff), the subconscious prejudice it breeds in the psyche of the average citizen is real and will stick around even if you better the financial situation of ethnic minorities. one thing reinforces the other, so i think you sort of have to tackle both.
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Mar 24, 2017 20:56
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Android Blues posted:there are plenty of studies and reaction tests that show that the faces of commonly discriminated against ethnic minorities evoke fewer feelings of empathy and more feelings of anger or fear in white study participants Just before this becomes a thing: the Harvard studies also show that minorities have biases too, it's not just that white people are assholes. e: also fwiw those studies are embroiled in quite a bit of criticism so while I agree there is bias present in almost everyone to some degree I'd be wary of taking any conclusions at face value without further research being done. quote:For example, it has been interpreted as assessing familiarity,[23] perceptual salience asymmetries,[24] or mere cultural knowledge irrespective of personal endorsement of that knowledge.[25] A more recent critique argued that there is a lack of empirical research justifying the diagnostic statements that are given to the lay public.[26] For instance, feedback may report that someone has a [slight/moderate/strong] automatic preference for [European Americans/African Americans]. Proponents of the IAT have responded to these charges,[27] but the debate continues. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 20:59
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Moridin920 posted:Just before this becomes a thing: the Harvard studies also show that minorities have biases too, it's not just that white people are assholes. yes, that's totally true as well
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Mar 24, 2017 21:00
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also i'm not even saying "white people are assholes" and that's not what those studies say they suggest that living in a racist culture trains people to be racist on a subconscious level in a way they may not be aware of at all, which is way more scary
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Mar 24, 2017 21:02
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Android Blues posted:also i'm not even saying "white people are assholes" and that's not what those studies say I know what you're saying but I know there are going to be people going "aahhh so all white people are racist huh and non-whites aren't???!!!" and I wanted to get ahead of that before it got started. Android Blues posted:they suggest that living in a racist culture trains people to be racist on a subconscious level in a way they may not be aware of at all, which is way more scary But yeah def, that was touched on with the police thing a few posts ago.
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Mar 24, 2017 21:03
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Jeffe of ycs plz move this to the race space and train lovely and spunky there
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Mar 24, 2017 21:07
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Android Blues posted:a lot of it is economic, but it isn't just economic. there are plenty of studies and reaction tests that show that the faces of commonly discriminated against ethnic minorities evoke fewer feelings of empathy and more feelings of anger or fear in white study participants My girlfriend bikes to work and twice! some black lady has just pulled over into the bike lane to tell her white girls are stupid, and once in she almost got into a fender bender in a parking lot and the black lady tried to kick her rear end by stalking her into the store I was biking home from work and a black lady pulled out and I rammed into the side of her car, she just rolled up her window and looked at me while duck lipping, didnt say a word just sat there staring at me I wonder why anger or fear could be associated with these events
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Mar 24, 2017 21:08
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lol cyclists
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Mar 24, 2017 21:09
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:My girlfriend bikes to work and twice! some black lady has just pulled over into the bike lane to tell her white girls are stupid, and once in she almost got into a fender bender in a parking lot and the black lady tried to kick her rear end by stalking her into the store Now this is good
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Mar 24, 2017 21:09
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:My girlfriend bikes to work and twice! some black lady has just pulled over into the bike lane to tell her white girls are stupid, and once in she almost got into a fender bender in a parking lot and the black lady tried to kick her rear end by stalking her into the store if a white person did those things to you, would you suggest that you should feel angry and afraid when seeing white people? or like, why not "angry and afraid when seeing women"? seems like both those incidents have that in common too! in other words why is it acceptable for you to judge an ethnic group based on the behaviour of two (2) individuals, but only if that ethnic group is different from your own
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Mar 24, 2017 21:10
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hint: it's because you already have weird feelings about black people and so when you see a black person doing something horrible you're like "that confirms it, they ARE terrible!" but if you see a white person doing something horrible you don't associate it with their race at all
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Mar 24, 2017 21:12
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I was biking home from work and a black lady pulled out and I rammed into the side of her car, she just rolled up her window and looked at me while duck lipping, didnt say a word just sat there staring at me brain damage from a biking accident would explain a lot actually
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Mar 24, 2017 21:12
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Android Blues posted:if a white person did those things to you, would you suggest that you should feel angry and afraid when seeing white people? or like, why not "angry and afraid when seeing women"? seems like both those incidents have that in common too! Why would white women pull over just to to say that white women are stupid, that doesn't make sense
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Mar 24, 2017 21:12
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hell, i'd do it right now
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Mar 24, 2017 21:13
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I mean, maybe it's just Chicago where we also had that beating video of the white guy I posed earlier, or that disabled kid tortured for days in a hate crime?
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Mar 24, 2017 21:14
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we could say anecdotes are irrelevant but that doesnt really fit our narrative now does it
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Mar 24, 2017 21:16
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