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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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Majorian posted:So again, where's the disagreement? In what way are you opposed to appeals to economic justice? Why do you oppose the Sanders/Warren/Ellison wing of the party taking over and, you know, actually winning? I don't think Bernie would have necessarily won. I think we need to be smart and strategic about how we structure our appeals for economic justice. I don't think the democrats' problems last election were primarily due to insufficient leftist policy. I find many of the arguments for that position unpersuasive.
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Mar 24, 2017 21:57
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Majorian posted:It looks to me like he's saying "expand Medicaid." What am I missing? I'm not sure how you got from "expand Medicaid" to "Medicare for all"
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Mar 24, 2017 21:58
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WampaLord posted:I'm not sure how you got from "expand Medicaid" to "Medicare for all" The point is, the Democratic response to Trump saying, "Well, I'll work with the Dems to reform health care then!  " should be to demand everything they possibly can.JeffersonClay posted:I don't think Bernie would have necessarily won. I think we need to be smart and strategic about how we structure our appeals for economic justice. I don't think the democrats' problems last election were primarily due to insufficient leftist policy. I find many of the arguments for that position unpersuasive. Whether or not Bernie would have won is purely academic at this point; it's a counterfactual, and he's not likely to run for president ever again. "Insufficient leftist policy" is an oversimplification of the problem that a lot of us are pointing out: Clinton didn't even try to pretend to want to help Rust Belt working class voters. Nobody's demanding ideological purity here. What we're saying is that, if the Democrats want to win back power in any significant way, they're going to kind of need to not look like they're giving the finger to those workers. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 22:00
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JeffersonClay posted:Rust belt voters seem to have both a high and low level of policy knowledge depending on the needs of your argument at the time. If they had a high knowledge of policy, they would realize that the ACA was the biggest expansion of the safety net in a generation and that the democratic platform was as progressive as ever. But instead they got conned, like you said. The narrative is incoherent. The ACA sucked, though. It wasn't the change people needed, had several major flaws, and Dems made it worse by at first refusing to campaign on it and then refusing to admit that it could possibly be improved. Although on the other hand, the idea that solid anti-poverty social programs grant electoral success doesn't necessarily hold up, at least in the short term. Although both FDR and LBJ took advantage of massive majorities in Congress to pass sweeping social reforms and programs aimed at helping the poor, they both faced conservative backlashes that ultimately stymied their plans and rolled back many of their gains.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:02
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JeffersonClay, have you ever actually talked to anyone from the rust belt about the problems they face?
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Mar 24, 2017 22:04
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"Medicare for all" that's actually single payer will look functionally more like Medicaid for all anyway so what's the problem
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Mar 24, 2017 22:07
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Majorian posted:The point is, the Democratic response to Trump saying, "Well, I'll work with the Dems to reform health care then! Ah, okay, I get you.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:07
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KwegiboHB posted:JeffersonClay, have you ever actually talked to anyone from the rust belt about the problems they face? or really any other human beings? granted my sample size of "california university students" is a heavily biased sample but nearly everyone i've heard talk about the election has been "the two parties are the same/neither party gives a poo poo about us"
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Mar 24, 2017 22:07
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I'm not totally caught up with the thread, so I apologize if it came up on one of the pages I skipped, but is this taking into consideration the actual structure of the Democratic party? Is everyone here basically familiar with what the DNC actually is, how their members are elected, and how one can influence those elections? Because my perspective is that we're asking the wrong question. We should be asking "How do we force the Democratic leadership to represent their membership?" I think it's possible to usurp the party within 2-4 years if people are pushing in the right places.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:09
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Main Paineframe posted:The ACA sucked, though. It wasn't the change people needed, had several major flaws, and Dems made it worse by at first refusing to campaign on it and then refusing to admit that it could possibly be improved. Running as a "new type of politician" who promises to actually make good on providing relief for the economically disadvantaged does tend to reap rewards, though. See: Trump, Donald J.; Obama, Barack H.; Clinton, William J.; etc. Disclaimer: winning because of those promises does not automatically translate into those politicians actually living up those promises once in office.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:11
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm pretty sure the person telling us to stop engaging dumb leftists (you) was himself a leftist. KwegiboHB posted:JeffersonClay, have you ever actually talked to anyone from the rust belt about the problems they face?
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Mar 24, 2017 22:12
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JeffersonClay posted:It really doesn't. Would they support expanding the welfare state if they didn't believe trump was going to kick out all the illegals, build a wall, and heavily restrict immigration? As far as I've seen, a lot of trump supporters thought his bluster was just bluster. That's the sentiments I keep seeing in the news, not "We finally get to have healthcare again cause the Mexicans are gone" quote:Those impacts are in the past. Net Mexican immigration is actually negative. The Latino immigrant populations that are growing are from further South. Price increases don't need to be very large to have significant negative impacts on people who are barely making ends meet. Wage losses from a permanent underclass like illegal immigrants are greater than the price increases from a NAFTA phaseout. Also, the industries lost because of NAFTA can't come back till NAFTA is gone so I'm not sure why those losses should be considered "in the past".
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Mar 24, 2017 22:14
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Main Paineframe posted:The ACA sucked, though. It wasn't the change people needed, had several major flaws, and Dems made it worse by at first refusing to campaign on it and then refusing to admit that it could possibly be improved. Why, then, is Bernie busting his rear end to defend it? Why is voting against repeal a litmus test for bad Dems? quote:Although on the other hand, the idea that solid anti-poverty social programs grant electoral success doesn't necessarily hold up, at least in the short term. Although both FDR and LBJ took advantage of massive majorities in Congress to pass sweeping social reforms and programs aimed at helping the poor, they both faced conservative backlashes that ultimately stymied their plans and rolled back many of their gains. Yeah, specifically the Southern strategy in response to LBJ. I think exactly the same thing just happened with the ACA.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:14
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JeffersonClay posted:Why, then, is Bernie busting his rear end to defend it? Because an imperfect system is better than a truly horrendous one. quote:Yeah, specifically the Southern strategy in response to LBJ. I think exactly the same thing just happened with the ACA. The legislators who lost big in 2010 tended to be the centrists who ran away from Obama and the ACA, not in support of it.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:16
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JeffersonClay posted:Why, then, is Bernie busting his rear end to defend it? Why is voting against repeal a litmus test for bad Dems? hurrr why is the person who wants to put the fire out also against from pouring gasoline on it
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Mar 24, 2017 22:18
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Majorian posted:It looks to me like he's saying "expand Medicaid." What am I missing? He's saying "force the ACA Medicaid expansion on the GOP states that rejected it".
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Mar 24, 2017 22:18
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Main Paineframe posted:He's saying "force the ACA Medicaid expansion on the GOP states that rejected it". Like I said, I think his point is to make demands that Trump can't possibly agree with, which is what the Dems should be doing. e: Kamala Harris is also doing what the Dems should be doing: https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/845370310601953282 I like my new senator. 
Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 22:20
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Majorian posted:Because an imperfect system is better than a truly horrendous one. I agree, the ACA is worth defending because it's a lot better than nothing. People informed about policy recognize this. quote:The legislators who lost big in 2010 tended to be the centrists who ran away from Obama and the ACA, not in support of it. Running away from Obamacare doesn't protect you from Republicans using it to whip up racist resentment. They were dumb to think it would. In any case I'm talking about Trump, but the Tea Party example works too.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:41
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Majorian posted:Like I said, I think his point is to make demands that Trump can't possibly agree with, which is what the Dems should be doing. It doesn't really sound like an unreasonable request at all. It's literally just "make GOP states accept the ACA Medicaid expansion". Trump wouldn't do it, but it's hardly an unreasonable request.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:43
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JeffersonClay posted:Running away from Obamacare doesn't protect you from Republicans using it to whip up racist resentment. That's not why Blanche Lincoln and Mary Landrieu lost though. They lost because they didn't stand for anything, because they were afraid to stand with their party, their President, and their signature piece of domestic legislation. They were spineless, and their voters didn't reward them for that.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:52
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Good to see some actual baby steps.
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Mar 24, 2017 22:58
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JeffersonClay posted:It really doesn't. Would they support expanding the welfare state if they didn't believe trump was going to kick out all the illegals, build a wall, and heavily restrict immigration? Didn't Hillary say she supported a wall in the southern border to restrict people from crossing to the US?
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Mar 24, 2017 23:01
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Main Paineframe posted:It doesn't really sound like an unreasonable request at all. It's literally just "make GOP states accept the ACA Medicaid expansion". Trump wouldn't do it, but it's hardly an unreasonable request. Right, so it's good to make. Trump will reject it, and the Democrats have even more ammunition to say, "Look at this loving CHUD who promised to make your healthcare better but now won't pony up."
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Mar 24, 2017 23:02
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Didn't Hillary say she supported a wall in the southern border to restrict people from crossing to the US? Primary Hillary was basically Trump in a skirt and with less racism aimed at black people, but this isn't the candidate who ran for the presidency.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:03
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JeffersonClay posted:I agree, the ACA is worth defending because it's a lot better than nothing. People informed about policy recognize this. 
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Mar 24, 2017 23:03
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Didn't Hillary say she supported a wall in the southern border to restrict people from crossing to the US? She voted for 700 miles of fence on the southern border, as part of an attempt at a deal for comprehensive immigration reform. So nah, that was just a Trump exaggeration/flat-out lie.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:04
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^^^ Another point in favor of Majorian not being a dumb leftist is his ability to identify and reject right wing propaganda. Majorian posted:That's not why Blanche Lincoln and Mary Landrieu lost though. They lost because they didn't stand for anything, because they were afraid to stand with their party, their President, and their signature piece of domestic legislation. They were spineless, and their voters didn't reward them for that. I agree that the ACA was a substantive expansion of the welfare state, and a few democrats did themselves no favors by opposing it. I also think Republican opposition to the ACA had the same racist motives and features as the southern strategy. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 23:07
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JeffersonClay posted:I agree that the ACA was a substantive expansion of the welfare state, and a few democrats did themselves no favors by opposing it. I also think Republican opposition to the ACA had the same racist motives and features as the southern strategy. I'm sure racist motives played a part, but did it play a greater part than the simple fact that Republican legislators have no other gods before them than corporate donors? Health insurance companies, Big Pharma, etc? I'm dubious. e: And as for the people that voted for those Republican legislators, I'm also skeptical that racist motives played a bigger role than the simple fact that the Obamacare rollout was not a perfect enterprise by any means. Premiums went up for a lot of people, not every serious condition was fully covered, etc. That was partially to be expected, and the ACA certainly got better over time, but again, I don't think one can just chalk it up entirely or primarily to working class voters who left the Democratic Party being racist. Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 23:10
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Majorian posted:She voted for 700 miles of fence on the southern border, as part of an attempt at a deal for comprehensive immigration reform. So nah, that was just a Trump exaggeration/flat-out lie. So...yes? She was pro-building a fence in the southern border? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlFi0QUboxs&app=desktop
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Mar 24, 2017 23:15
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:So...yes? She was pro-building a fence in the southern border? 700 miles' worth of fence isn't a wall across the entire southern border, though, and like I said, it was part of a deal for a progressive attempt at immigration reform. Yeah, well, that was stupid. That was part of her reflexive tendency to try to look as tough on crime and national security as possible, no matter how bad it made her look.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:17
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:So...yes? She was pro-building a fence in the southern border? Look, when Abuela says she wants a wall, that's different. Sensible. ~Reasonable~. Now, when Trump says he wants a wall, it's racist and despicable.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:18
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i'd like to request that all dumb leftists evacuate this thread ASAP so we adults can have a reasonable and rational debate
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Mar 24, 2017 23:18
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Majorian posted:I'm sure racist motives played a part, but did it play a greater part than the simple fact that Republican legislators have no other gods before them than corporate donors? Health insurance companies, Big Pharma, etc? I'm dubious. They have no gods but the wealthy who don't want to pay more taxes. Coded appeals to racism are how they get poor people to vote against their own interests. They link welfare expansion to undeserving lazy non-white moochers. It wasn't an accident they called it Obamacare, they did so to link it to his blackness and imply non-whites would benefit at the expense of whites.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:24
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JeffersonClay posted:They have no gods but the wealthy who don't want to pay more taxes. Coded appeals to racism are how they get poor people to vote against their own interests. They link welfare expansion to undeserving lazy non-white moochers. It wasn't an accident they called it Obamacare, they did so to link it to his blackness and imply non-whites would benefit at the expense of whites. cough cough superpredators cough
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Mar 24, 2017 23:30
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Ze Pollack posted:cough cough superpredators cough No one cared about that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F38k3EM2ufg Literally no one
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Mar 24, 2017 23:36
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JeffersonClay posted:They have no gods but the wealthy who don't want to pay more taxes. Coded appeals to racism are how they get poor people to vote against their own interests. They link welfare expansion to undeserving lazy non-white moochers. It wasn't an accident they called it Obamacare, they did so to link it to his blackness and imply non-whites would benefit at the expense of whites. Racism played a role, but I don't think one can claim that it played the only, or even the largest, role. Had the ACA worked perfectly from the moment it was signed into law, I strongly doubt voters would have been whipped into as much of a frenzy.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:40
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Majorian posted:700 miles' worth of fence isn't a wall across the entire southern border, though, and like I said, it was part of a deal for a progressive attempt at immigration reform. I mean, at what point does it change from merely an act to literally voting for the invasion of iraq and also a giant fence built to keep immigrants out
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Mar 24, 2017 23:39
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If you think "but Hillary said a racist thing once!" is a relevant and interesting point in a conversation about Republicans and the southern strategy, you might be a dumb leftist. If you think "but Hillary voted for a border fence once!" is a relevant and interesting point in a conversation about Trump's immigration policies, you might be a dumb leftist.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:44
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:I mean, at what point does it change from merely an act to literally voting for the invasion of iraq and also a giant fence built to keep immigrants out Well, for one thing, there was already hundreds of miles of fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, and securing the borders is an important national security concern. Drug smuggling does take place across the border, and it's hardly inconceivable that a non-state actor would try to sneak a WMD into the U.S. as well. So it is the government's job to secure the border, to some degree. The question is, at what point does it stop serving national security, and just start being sadistic and cruel against undocumented workers? Given that the '06 fence bill was part of trying to actually relax restrictions for people gaining residence in the country, I don't think it falls under the latter category. The Iraq War vote, I won't defend, other than to say, as others have, that a lot of people got really stupid after 9/11. But it was a terrible, terrible mistake, and Clinton should have owned up to it earlier and more clearly.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:44
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ts one thing to say a racist thing because you have some dumb prejudices and are caught in a compromising position. Its another to openly engage in racism for votes. Which Abuela did.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:47
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