|
Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Yes |
|
33 | 6.38% |
| No |
|
343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
|
54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
|
71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
|
16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
|
Clinton SHOULD have won. The national polls ended up being pretty accurate. The issue is the public for the most part had no idea as to how truly inept her campaign was being run, especially when Trump's was a dumpster fire as well. That combined with people saying how amazing her strategists were led to no introspective until the 11th hour when everyone started to realize what was going on. The people that "knew" she was going to win were clearly not paying attention since even in the rosiest scenarios Trump was a legitimate threat; however I don't think it was wrong to think that it was going to be a close election in the Democrat's favor. Now the people that thought they were going to have a Reagan-esque wave and take back the South... those guys need some serious perspective and reflection. The canary in the mine was how well Bernie ended up doing instead of assuming that since she was able to beat a guy that threw together his primary run in the last minute in order to make a statement she was definitely going to win the general. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Mar 27, 2017 |
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:37 |
|
|
WampaLord posted:It gave me a hell of a wakeup call. Before the election, I was actually mostly onboard with the Clinton-type centrism/neoliberalism. Yeah, in order for someone to justify a "win at all costs" strategy, they have to, um, win.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:What leads you to believe Hillary wanted to deport any more child refugees than Bernie? (She didn't) her saying we should deport child refugees fleeing honduras to set an example, while bernie has never said any of that poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
Frijolero posted:JC is a big boy, you don't have to defend him. Remember Bernie getting booed at the convention by his hardcore supporters when he told them it was time to face to bloodshed and support the nominee? Are you telling me nobody believed Bernie when he said he could still win after Super Tuesday?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
to be fair her intent was to deport them to a deserted island for a badass lord of the flies scenario
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
So JC why should the dems not get behind Bernie's medicare for all bill, or the bill in the house?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
To be fair her position was to give them legal aid, determine if they are refugees, and return them to their families if they don't qualify. When I read this statement from Bernie sanders, I am also given reason to think he would be unwilling to accept any young person who reaches the US border. quote:You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? … You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids? But that quote was from 2015 so maybe his position changed, too?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:So JC why should the dems not get behind Bernie's medicare for all bill, or the bill in the house? They should. But we all should realize it's performance art until after the 2020 election.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:To be fair her position was to give them legal aid, determine if they are refugees, and return them to their families if they don't qualify. how many under-18 immigrant workers do you think we should bring in JC
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
Condiv posted:how many under-18 immigrant workers do you think we should bring in JC Are you making a distinction between immigrant workers and immigrants who will work?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:34
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Are you making a distinction between immigrant workers and immigrants who will work? are you? cause bernie was talking about immigrant workers, not under 18 child refugees like hillary. I know you want to pretend that he said the same things as clinton so that all the mean bernie bros will have to say that clinton's not so bad, but she's actually bad and bernie didn't advocate for deporting child refugees no matter how much you try to twist his positions
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:They should. But we all should realize it's performance art until after the 2020 election. Doesn't matter. Its about offering a clear alternative.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
America's policy on refugees is inexcusable especially since we are the number one cause of the violence and hardship they are fleeing. Especially the ones from Central and South America fleeing cartel violence driven by our insatiable desire for narcotics makes them risk life and limb and risking a thousand other ways to die in the desert. All for both of our political parties to turn around and say they should hurry up and die and decrease the surplus population. But democrats say it "less racistly" so that's okay.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Doesn't matter. Its about offering a clear alternative. Yeah, voters aren't going to punish the Dems if they try and don't succeed (because I don't think anyone expects they'll succeed). They'll punish them if they don't try.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
JC thinks Dems should only do things that are easy, anything else is futile. Except using immigrants as bargaining chips, that's ok.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
BTW I want to thank everyone for chipping in and hiring former Hillary staffer JC. It's great to be able to discuss and rehash all the garbage policies from her campaign. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
Bi Now Gay Later is the Clinton staffer, JC is just a dude who writes angry political posts on Facebook
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 18:59
|
|
|
Condiv posted:are you? cause bernie was talking about immigrant workers, not under 18 child refugees like hillary. I know you want to pretend that he said the same things as clinton so that all the mean bernie bros will have to say that clinton's not so bad, but she's actually bad and bernie didn't advocate for deporting child refugees no matter how much you try to twist his positions Do you think every unaccompanied minor is necessarily a refugee? If that were our policy, we'd be creating some powerful perverse incentives for a lot of parents around the world--send your child, alone, and if they survive they're on a path to US citizenship. I don't think that was Bernie's position, either. I don't care what berniebros think about Clinton. I care about dumb leftists who can't see any important distinction between democrats and the GOP on immigration.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
There might be latitude between the parties on immigration, but both parties agree on the international economic and political order that creates immigration and refugee crises in the first place. Thus its not worth it to point out how Democrats are marginally less lovely because they are still responsible for the crisis in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
Fiction posted:There might be latitude between the parties on immigration, but both parties agree on the international economic and political order that creates immigration and refugee crises in the first place. Thus its not worth it to point out how Democrats are marginally less lovely because they are still responsible for the crisis in the first place. Wait, in what way are the Democrats, in particular, responsible for the crisis in the first place?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Radish posted:The canary in the mine was how well Bernie ended up doing instead of assuming that since she was able to beat a guy that threw together his primary run in the last minute in order to make a statement she was definitely going to win the general. Probably the most annoying and dumb argument I've heard about the primaries is "Sanders losing proves that Democrats/Americans don't want to move further to the left." It completely ignores the historical trend with leftist primary candidates and how unusual it is for a leftist candidate who is comparatively unknown and with a hastily prepared campaign to perform as well as Sanders did. In past elections someone like Sanders would have been a fringe candidate, so it's crazy to ignore the significance of his performance in the primary. I'm willing to accept that him not getting the nomination might indicate that most Democrats aren't as left-leaning as him yet*, but at the very least his performance in the primary shows a very clear and dramatic increase in the influence of leftist politics within the party. So there's a clear trend there, and it will likely only increase over time due to the demographics of Sanders' support. *Though even that is pretty iffy, since Clinton benefited greatly from name recognition and association with her husband and good economy of the 90's. It's hard to say how Sanders would have done if he was competing against someone else without that advantage. Kilroy posted:Eh, after Fukushima frankly I'm not sure I can trust governments or corporations not to gently caress up nuclear power horribly. It's safe and clean enough when done right, but corporations weasel out of doing the right thing all the time, and it's rare for governing bodies to exercise the oversight to detect it, and even rarer to do anything substantial about wrongdoing when they discover it. Before Fukushima I was strongly pro-nuclear power - now I'm kinda on the fence. Even if we had a Fukushima happen every couple years it would still be vastly superior to fossil fuels. I think people heavily overestimate the worst case scenario with regard to nuclear power. I mean, Fukushima almost was a worst case scenario and it has very minor casualties. Frijolero posted:I also appreciate being compared to Trump supporters after voting for Hillary and Democrats last October. Feels real good. I meant that you were doing the same sort of "eh they're a little crude, so what" thing in response to people pointing out super bad things Stein has said. It's similar to Trump voters who say "well that's just his personality" in response to the terrible stuff he's said. It gives the impression that someone is conveniently choosing to ignore any information that goes contrary to their preferred image of the person in question.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Wait, in what way are the Democrats, in particular, responsible for the crisis in the first place? The War on Drugs and NAFTA are the two big ones. The rest is consistent New Democrat neoliberalism and imperialism which has vilified leftism in the Western Hemisphere for the past 60 years and allowed rampant poverty and instability.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Do you think every unaccompanied minor is necessarily a refugee? If that were our policy, we'd be creating some powerful perverse incentives for a lot of parents around the world--send your child, alone, and if they survive they're on a path to US citizenship. I don't think that was Bernie's position, either. No, but Hillary specifically talked about deporting child refugees to send a message. Which is why I keep bringing it up. quote:I don't care what berniebros think about Clinton. I care about dumb leftists who can't see any important distinction between democrats and the GOP on immigration. They'd be able to tell the difference better if Obama hadn't outdone bush on deportations.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Wait, in what way are the Democrats, in particular, responsible for the crisis in the first place? The party becoming a blue-flavored copy of Reaganism ever since the late 80s has meant that even when Democrats had control over the government they did little to fix the underlying problems beginning to crop up with global capitalism like asymmetrical wealth distribution and increasing climate change.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Wait, in what way are the Democrats, in particular, responsible for the crisis in the first place? Well there are a loot of Honduran refugees driven by the coup and the resulting violence. The Democrats refusal to step away from the war on drugs and take measures that would actually diminish the cartels. That's moot even getting into their secret bombing campaign driving refugees in the rest of the world. And their refusal to act on companies that recruit "illegal" workers from Central and South America continuing a permanent underclass that our society is built on. There's no walking away from Omelas, indeed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
You're comparing a sexual predator and racist to a flower power hippie. What for?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
Fiction posted:The party becoming a blue-flavored copy of Reaganism ever since the late 80s has meant that even when Democrats had control over the government they did little to fix the underlying problems beginning to crop up with global capitalism like asymmetrical wealth distribution and increasing climate change. I mean, I agree with that, but it's a little misleading to suggest that the Dems have exclusive responsibility for it. That may not be what you were going for, but it read that way to me, at least. It's important to remember how much those things had already been set in motion by Republicans, by the time Clinton ran for president. Not trying to absolve the Dems; just saying, the machine was already running.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Not trying to absolve the Dems; just saying, the machine was already running. Well that's kind of been the problem since then, no?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Condiv posted:No, but Hillary specifically talked about deporting child refugees to send a message. Which is why I keep bringing it up. quote:They'd be able to tell the difference better if Obama hadn't outdone bush on deportations. A statistical artifact of redefining deportation more expansively. Frijolero posted:. LBJ was a New Democrat? JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:
Obama didn't change any Bush-era policies on immigration until he was forced to by pressure from activists.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I mean, I agree with that, but it's a little misleading to suggest that the Dems have exclusive responsibility for it. That may not be what you were going for, but it read that way to me, at least. It's important to remember how much those things had already been set in motion by Republicans, by the time Clinton ran for president. Not trying to absolve the Dems; just saying, the machine was already running. Yo, please stop your boring to-be-fair-ism. Nobody is saying the Dems are to blame for everything. But you have to get your head out of your rear end when it comes to our treatment of Central and South America. The War on Drugs and NAFTA are two completely clear policies which have led to instability and immigration. Both continue to be supported by Dems. One was pushed by a Dem president.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Fiction posted:Well that's kind of been the problem since then, no? It has been, and the Dems do bear some responsibility. But as much as Bill Clinton deserves to be criticized for his neoliberal policies, I think a lot of lefties lose track of how much the ball was already rolling by the time he came into office. It's easy to say, "Well, of course Reagan supported neoliberalism - that's just the way Republicans are," but that just lets them off the hook. Everything Democrats do that's bad, Republicans do at least as bad. (except for, you know. Not winning)
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:37
|
|
|
Fiction posted:Obama didn't change any Bush-era policies on immigration until he was forced to by pressure from activists. Actually he supported comprehensive immigration reform which got through the senate but not the house and then he did DACA and DAPA instead.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:37
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:She talked about deporting children that didn't qualify as refugees. You seem to be agreeing that all unaccompanied units are not necessarily refugees, and if we considered them to be there would be substantial problems. no she literally acknowleges "unaccompanied units" fleeing from drug and gang violence, and then says they shouldn't be able to stay in the US. she literally says that they're refugees, and then says we should deport them anyway. to set an example.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtu50I9IMys quote:A statistical artifact of redefining deportation more expansively. much like how bush was more progressive than FDR because he spent more on the welfare state right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:38
|
|
|
Frijolero posted:Nobody is saying the Dems are to blame for everything. But you have to get your head out of your rear end when it comes to our treatment of Central and South America. The War on Drugs and NAFTA are two completely clear policies which have led to instability and immigration. Both continue to be supported by Dems. One was pushed by a Dem president.  Bill Clinton's policies were pretty terrible; I'm not arguing otherwise. But looking at them outside of the context of the U.S.' policy in the region over the preceding decade? That's kind of dumb dude. e: I mean jfc, Reagan never met a death squad he didn't love. That doesn't mean that Clinton wasn't lovely too, but there's more than a marginal difference between the two of them when it comes to Latin America. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:40
|
|
|
Majorian posted:
Boys will be boys 
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Condiv posted:no she literally acknowleges "unaccompanied units" fleeing from drug and gang violence, and then says they shouldn't be able to stay in the US. she literally says that they're refugees, and then says we should deport them anyway. to set an example.... This video appears to be older than a day, which is longer than the half life decay of Hillary's opinion, and therefore likely not representative of her dear, long held beliefs as of this moment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
Majorian posted:It has been, and the Dems do bear some responsibility. But as much as Bill Clinton deserves to be criticized for his neoliberal policies, I think a lot of lefties lose track of how much the ball was already rolling by the time he came into office. It's easy to say, "Well, of course Reagan supported neoliberalism - that's just the way Republicans are," but that just lets them off the hook. Everything Democrats do that's bad, Republicans do at least as bad. (except for, you know. Not winning) But the narrative has always been the Democrats stand for different values than Republicans. But when the continue to support and further polices that make more sense for Republicans well it plays into the thinking that both parties are the same. Christ in 2012 Obama said that him and Romney agree on most things, and I went no don't loving say that. If I hate Romney and everything he stands for (I do) and you agree with him on a majority of things why should I support you? And I didn't, I voted for him in '08 but I didn't in '12. That kind of poo poo is killing the Party. Whataboutism isn't really that great of a deflector, yeah the Republicans are the absloute worst but the Democrats being not that much better isn't really a feather in their cap. It's like saying yeah Ted sucks because he beats his wife but Ryan is worse cause he does the same and molests his daughter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
KomradeX posted:But the narrative has always been the Democrats stand for different values than Republicans. But when the continue to support and further polices that make more sense for Republicans well it plays into the thinking that both parties are the same. Christ in 2012 Obama said that him and Romney agree on most things, and I went no don't loving say that. If I hate Romney and everything he stands for (I do) and you agree with him on a majority of things why should I support you? And I didn't, I voted for him in '08 but I didn't in '12. That kind of poo poo is killing the Party. I agree, on the whole; I just think it's a little silly to try to use Latin America as an example of how the Dems are only marginally better than the Republicans, given how murderously awful the Republicans were over the past three decades. The Dems weren't SUFFICIENTLY better, no question, but they were certainly less awful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 03:37 |
|
|
readingatwork posted:Actually most establishment Republicans want those things too (because their donors would benefit from making immigrant competition with American workers permanent). It's actually a pretty big point of contention between the GOP and it's base Wouldn't the truly leftist position be to ensure that we have a system that ensures all workers get good pay and fair treatment, instead of handwringing about labor markets? The reason immigrant labor undermines worker pay isn't because of labor competition, it's because employers openly abuse immigrant workers, aided by government agencies ignoring those abuses and government policies that discourage immigrants from reporting them. I've seen plenty of "actually real leftists would want closed borders" gotcha garbage from right-wingers lately, and it just goes to show that they don't understand that "make things for everybody except the rich" doesn't require abusing immigrants, and immigration doesn't necessarily mean undermining local workers: both those problems are the product of corrupt capitalism, not inherent economic realities.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 19:56
|
|
.