|
i don't know if this is true, but i remember hearing that a huge number of ethiopian men are part-time priests and people share the duties. i think that's much healthier than the way the OCA does it, which is your parish pays the priests some token stipend and usually both the priest and the matushka also work full-time while running the parish. what an exhausting life.
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2017 23:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 14:35 |
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:i don't know if this is true, but i remember hearing that a huge number of ethiopian men are part-time priests and people share the duties. i think that's much healthier than the way the OCA does it, which is your parish pays the priests some token stipend and usually both the priest and the matushka also work full-time while running the parish. what an exhausting life. This is one argument I hear a lot against ordaining married Catholic men as priests - the pay is not great, the hours are long, and in many parts of the US there aren't only not two priests per parish, there's often two parishes per priest. It seems unlikely that the pay would get any better for a married man, and it also seems unlikely that there'd be so many men who'd be interested in ordination that there'd suddenly be a lot of hands to share the burden. (Some bishops also prefer to move priests around regularly, so that St. Ipsydipsy's doesn't start thinking of itself as specifically Fr. Whatshisname's parish; that'd be especially hard on a priest with kids in school.) On the other hand, The Phlegmatist posted:your priest is just the dude in your village who knows how to stumble through the Divine Liturgy and perform sacraments, and you rely on itinerant monks to catechize people and teach them the finer points of the Orthodox faith. That would be fine with me? I mean, I like homilies full of intricate teaching, but Fr. Whatshisname can read someone else's eloquent homily, and monks as instructors means "but we can't pay catechiiiiiists" isn't as much of a problem 
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:This is one argument I hear a lot against ordaining married Catholic men as priests - the pay is not great, the hours are long, and in many parts of the US there aren't only not two priests per parish, there's often two parishes per priest. It seems unlikely that the pay would get any better for a married man, and it also seems unlikely that there'd be so many men who'd be interested in ordination that there'd suddenly be a lot of hands to share the burden. (Some bishops also prefer to move priests around regularly, so that St. Ipsydipsy's doesn't start thinking of itself as specifically Fr. Whatshisname's parish; that'd be especially hard on a priest with kids in school.) There was at least one survey done on this; 2% of Catholic high school boys were interested in the priesthood. If you ask them if they would be interested in the priesthood if they were allowed to be married, it jumps to...a whopping 4%. I mean it *is* doubled, but like you said there's really no structural support for married priests who aren't bi-vocational, which takes away time from their ministry. Congratulations your dad makes $20k a year but you can live in the rectory free of charge? If Catholics killed clerical celibacy, suddenly priests become a lot more expensive. In evangelical land, pastors are expected to be married and have kids. This comes with an actual salary and an actual parsonage though. Not making the priest take a vow of poverty and giving him a token amount of money so he doesn't starve to death and making him live in a flophouse of a rectory.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 01:04
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:This is one argument I hear a lot against ordaining married Catholic men as priests - the pay is not great, the hours are long, and in many parts of the US there aren't only not two priests per parish, there's often two parishes per priest. It seems unlikely that the pay would get any better for a married man, and it also seems unlikely that there'd be so many men who'd be interested in ordination that there'd suddenly be a lot of hands to share the burden. (Some bishops also prefer to move priests around regularly, so that St. Ipsydipsy's doesn't start thinking of itself as specifically Fr. Whatshisname's parish; that'd be especially hard on a priest with kids in school.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 01:16
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:There was at least one survey done on this; 2% of Catholic high school boys were interested in the priesthood. If you ask them if they would be interested in the priesthood if they were allowed to be married, it jumps to...a whopping 4%. I mean it *is* doubled, but like you said there's really no structural support for married priests who aren't bi-vocational, which takes away time from their ministry. Congratulations your dad makes $20k a year but you can live in the rectory free of charge? Unless the priest is part of a religious order, they don't take vows of poverty. The example always given is if a diocesan priest writes a book, he can have all the proceeds.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 01:55
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:is nobody making that argument remembering that women can also earn money? because as i see it, you go from one potential earner to two. To be honest, when I've heard/read the argument the woman's income hasn't been mentioned, so, yes, they're probably purposefully ignoring that potential, but even without that assumption, low pay is still a problem, right? Google suggests that a priest living where I do makes $30k a year. He can't switch employers (or threaten to do so) to get a better salary; he can't just move to another part of the country because he'd have been ordained for this diocese and would need permission to go; so her salary has to compensate for the fact that $30k is what he's going to get. The median salary for an elementary school teacher here is $55k - if she'd married a teacher, he could switch districts, or work for a private school, or maybe they could both move to Maine, and even if none of those happened he'd still probably be making more, and not also be perpetually on call. (I looked up assistant professor and psychologist, just to be sure, and as expected they make more than elementary school teachers. "Average pastor salary [my location]" is more than psychologists or assistant professors, but less than psychiatrists. Even a "youth pastor" makes more than a Catholic priest would.) edit: did a little more googling, and apparently the local LCMS district uses "local elementary school teacher" as "base pay" and then applies factors like "years of experience", "special duties", and "number of people who attend weekly", so my attempt at comparing them to teachers was good, I suppose! On the other hand, "weekly attendance" starts adding points at 71 people per week, whereas my parish has 3500 families in it, so probably a weekly attendance of at least 2500 people... zonohedron fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Mar 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:edit: did a little more googling, and apparently the local LCMS district uses "local elementary school teacher" as "base pay" and then applies factors like "years of experience", "special duties", and "number of people who attend weekly", so my attempt at comparing them to teachers was good, I suppose! On the other hand, "weekly attendance" starts adding points at 71 people per week, whereas my parish has 3500 families in it, so probably a weekly attendance of at least 2500 people...
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 05:21
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:I'm curious as to why you're referencing LCMS? Purely because I found their guide to calculating salaries when searching "average pastor salary", and that a (portion of a) liturgical(-type) denomination officially uses "local teacher pay" as a base salary makes me feel better about having compared a priest's salary to a teacher's salary in my hypothetical.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 05:44
|
|
|
zone, it's worse than you think for us, in my argument i was referencing the fact that the orthodox priests i have known make so little that many of them have jobs on top of being a priest, not just that being a priest doesn't pay much, which it doesn't. if we had priestly celibacy we'd either have to pay them a lot more or they'd have to live with parishioners or something. edit: this is because i am a member of the OCA. if i were, say, romanian orthodox, i think the romanian government would pay my priest's salary whether or not he lived in romania at the time. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Mar 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 05:44
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:zone, it's worse than you think for us, in my argument i was referencing the fact that the orthodox priests i have known make so little that many of them have jobs on top of being a priest, not just that being a priest doesn't pay much, which it doesn't. if we had priestly celibacy we'd either have to pay them a lot more or they'd have to live with parishioners or something. In Germany I have to imagine Catholic priests make decent money, but many of them still choose to live in a roommate situation, like the bishop of Passau who according to the internet should make 6 figures. People just don't like to live alone. Don't know what a German priest does if he has a vow of poverty; he'd probably allow his religious order to manage the money he makes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 06:14
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:since that's what a lot of the smaller churches are used to; your priest is just the dude in your village who knows how to stumble through the Divine Liturgy and perform sacraments, and you rely on itinerant monks to catechize people and teach them the finer points of the Orthodox faith. That's actually p cool, I like faith from the ground up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 08:59
|
|
|
pidan posted:Don't know what a German priest does if he has a vow of poverty; he'd probably allow his religious order to manage the money he makes. This is pretty much exactly what happens: they arrange to have their checks sent to their order rather than to them. One of the Jesuits I know told me that he's got a credit card with a ludicrously high credit limit that automatically gets paid off by the Society: he's just got to be prepared to account to his superior for every charge on it. Taking parishioners and spiritual directees to lunch: a-ok. Personal steak and lobster dinners: not so much.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 11:51
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:is nobody making that argument remembering that women can also earn money? because as i see it, you go from one potential earner to two. In Russia this doesn't quite work, because priests tend to have three or more children, so on top of parochial work a matushka is somewhat expected to do, looking after children takes a lot of her free time, and the father's ability to share the burden is limited with irregular working hours. Some matushkas still work, but they can't really commit to something full time until the children are old enough, so it's mostly something occasional and relatively low-paid. I know that the views on family planning are a bit different in various Orthodox churches, but with Catholic priests the situation would hardly be different. At least that's also how it is with Eastern Catholic priests in Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 11:58
|
|
|
Just sent off an application to work for the Pallottines, fingers crossed. I hope it works out and I can enjoy the same nice life like that one Pallottine priest my parents used to know who would spend all day playing The Settlers 2 in his office
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 13:04
|
|
|
Thirteen Orphans posted:Unless the priest is part of a religious order, they don't take vows of poverty. The example always given is if a diocesan priest writes a book, he can have all the proceeds. Huh, you're right. I dunno why I thought diocesan priests took vows too. zonohedron posted:edit: did a little more googling, and apparently the local LCMS district uses "local elementary school teacher" as "base pay" and then applies factors like "years of experience", "special duties", and "number of people who attend weekly", so my attempt at comparing them to teachers was good, I suppose! On the other hand, "weekly attendance" starts adding points at 71 people per week, whereas my parish has 3500 families in it, so probably a weekly attendance of at least 2500 people... That's a really good way to go about things. In PC(USA) each presbytery sets a minimum salary for pastors, which is usually around $35k. Sometimes you get a house, sometimes you don't. The majority of PC(USA) pastors are making around the minimum since they're usually in small congregations that are having trouble keeping the lights on anyway. On the other end, though...there are some PC(USA) pastors in large congregations (1000+ members) making $250k+ a year. I know you're not supposed to go into the priesthood for the purpose of making money, but priests could definitely use a raise considering the ridiculous educational requirements and long hours. Plus you're basically locked in to the clergy. If you want to change careers I don't think employers will be all that impressed that you can quote Kierkegaard and hear confessions in the breakroom.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 15:14
|
|
|
Word on the street was a west Texas associate priest was starting at 200+ with a nice parsonage. Oil country parishioners pay oil salaries, so long as you absolve them of killing the planet I guess. Generally we have clergy minimums, too, which tend to float around a living wage for the local area. I think in L.A. it's 40k but that's on the low end of a living wage, especially if you have a family and student debt.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 17:53
|
|
|
I would imagine that a lot of it would depend on if the local church provides housing or not. Housing can be a huge, huge expense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
yo bel canto https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Men-s-Pedicabo-Ego-Vos-Et-Irrumabo-Catullus-XVI-Fitted-Tee/32780247054.html
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 07:25
|
|
|
I wouldn't wear that to Church. Or to court, either, come to think of it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 15:00
|
|
|
I am very glad I found this thread. The other board I had found, r/Christianity seemed to be just a slow burn slapfight of Catholics asking Protestants why they hated God and Protestants implying that all Catholics were going to hell
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
Top Hats Monthly posted:I am very glad I found this thread. The other board I had found, r/Christianity seemed to be just a slow burn slapfight of Catholics asking Protestants why they hated God and Protestants implying that all Catholics were going to hell It is true, though. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 16:39
|
|
|
Welcome to the most gay socialist Christianity thread on the internet!
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
JcDent posted:Welcome to the most gay socialist Christianity thread on the internet! Paladinus posted:It is true, though. oh poo poo 
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
Liturgical typos best typos. (Image found in the CSPAM pic thread of all places).
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 18:09
|
|
|
i got a reply from a community college teaching position i applied to and I have no idea if i was rejected or accepted to a pool of potential teachers there might not be a difference
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 18:15
|
|
|
Top Hats Monthly posted:I am very glad I found this thread. The other board I had found, r/Christianity seemed to be just a slow burn slapfight of Catholics asking Protestants why they hated God and Protestants implying that all Catholics were going to hell this thread, by contrast, is an ongoing discussion of silly hats among posters of diverse religious beliefs, including pagans and atheists, interrupted by the occasional intrusion of reddit atheists who seem to have lots of difficulty reading...well, anything at all, really
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
The thread appears surprisingly troll-free and genuine to me. It is hard to keep up with, though, since it moves fast, and discussions and topics have mostly moved on when I catch up, but I like reading it, still.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 19:52
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:It is true, though. did u know Catholics worship Mary and the saints, checkmate idolaters  Grandmother of Five posted:The thread appears surprisingly troll-free and genuine to me. It is hard to keep up with, though, since it moves fast, and discussions and topics have mostly moved on when I catch up, but I like reading it, still. the topic of conversation does bounce all over the place between silly hats, shitposting, serious theology/liturgy discussion, church history, current events etc this page for example is pretty gross
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
Top Hats Monthly posted:oh poo poo A (very small, actually) sample of silly Catholic hats, to get you in the mood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMTu86K-IhI  A variant of the zucchetto or pileolus exclusively worn by a single priest in the Spanish city of Léridsa  A biretta worn by a small handful of curial officials in Rome  Not really Catholic per se, but this academic hat is given to recipients of an honorary doctor at the University of Coimbra, Spain and was too awesome to pass up  The camauro used to be the official non-liturgical headgear of popes up until the 19th century and saw a short-lived renaissance under Pope Benedict XVI  It also existed in white, though the Popes only wore that during the Easter Octace. Last seen under Pope John XXIII  A bishop's capello romano, which fell out of use in the 1960s (if not before)  Man, Pope Benedict really had some great hats. This is a pontifical capello  A cardinal's galero. Until the 1960s these hats were given by the Pope to newly created cardinals; now it's simply a red biretta.  This blessed hat was given out by the Pope alongside a blessed sword to Catholic monarchs as a gift for their defence of Christendom, last time in 1823. The above example is from 1725  A mitre is the proper headgear of bishops and abbots during liturgical functions  The tiara was worn by the Popes until the 1960s during extraliturgical occasions as a demonstration of their temporal power  The jijin was worn by Catholic missionaries during Mass in China until the 1920s Pellisworth, does my post fall under "silly hats" or under "shitposting"?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
System Metternich posted:
System Metternich posted:
System Metternich posted:Pellisworth, does my post fall under "silly hats" or under "shitposting"? yes!
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 20:35
|
|
|
Bel_Canto posted:this thread, by contrast, is an ongoing discussion of silly hats among posters of diverse religious beliefs, including pagans and atheists, interrupted by the occasional intrusion of reddit atheists who seem to have lots of difficulty reading...well, anything at all, really Oh oh I want to hear more about the last one! Also I loved the silly hat presentation
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
Top Hats Monthly posted:Oh oh I want to hear more about the last one! honestly I don't think you do, they're pretty lame and tedious, no one here gets mad and we have a lot of extremely knowledgeable posters we had a pretty long derail about EXPLANATORY POWER last thread but this current one is mostly clean of any of that atheists are cool and welcome here as long as they're posting in good faith and trying to learn rather than argue with the thread arguing with the thread mostly results in "which of the myriad Christianities are you talking about here, you're yelling at American Evangelicals and we are extremely not that"
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
explanatory power was a great conversation though I must admit jastiger lacked explanatory power
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3554109&pagenumber=214&perpage=40#post454303977 if you really want to go down that rabbit hole
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
Top Hats Monthly posted:Oh oh I want to hear more about the last one! basically what pellisworth said: it sounds amusing but is really really tedious in practice. to sum up, the news media in the united states and the united kingdom are dominated by loud fundamentalist christians who read and think badly and tend to emerge from christian traditions with very strong anti-intellectual roots: there's an excellent discussion of the american development of those traditions in the first few chapters of richard hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. the result of this hypervisibility is that those atheists who don't take the trouble to engage in depth with christian history and the variety of christian practices tend to assume that all christians read and think in those same ways; it also doesn't help that many people, in rebelling against their upbringing in those very traditions, carry over those same habits of reading and thinking. they know that the fundamentalist mode of reading is wrong and bad, but it remains their only mode of reading the bible. the end result of this is the reddit-type atheist who hasn't ever encountered nuanced, intellectual religious discussion and is by and large unaware that it exists. those people, on the rare occasion that they wander into the thread, tend to be unable to process it and end up insisting that we must actually be raving anti-intellectuals somehow. it's very tiresome and we're glad it hasn't happened in a while
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3554109&pagenumber=214&perpage=40#post454303977 Numerical Anxiety posted:Cheers to all the brothers and sisters in the liturgigoon thread, where not even a "get a room" joke escapes theological appraisal and critique. I do appreciate you. Arsenic Lupin posted:If I waltzed into a Camarilla LARP and demanded that everybody start playing Pathfinder, I would be a great deal less than welcome. HEY GAIL posted:Nothing is stopping you from backing up your assertions, if you want to The Phlegmatist posted:with the full foreknowledge of God, Jastiger was predestined There, I pulled out anything worth reading from that. Just imagine you were scrolling past Jastiger's avatar, over and over again, and you'll get the rest of the experience.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
System Metternich posted:
You can't pass off what your nan knit you for Christmas as official dress. System Metternich posted:
Nor can you just nick it off the Queen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
Huh, the church I teach Sunday School at will be running out of money in July at this rate. Not surprising since there's maybe 30 regular attendees, but...
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
It's me, I'm the good atheist
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 14:35 |
|
|
Pellisworth posted:did u know Catholics worship Mary and the saints, checkmate idolaters 
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2017 23:07
|
|