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Yeah, I'd agree with that, but even in Theme Park Ride SH2 mode(i played it on beginner first time so I can't criticize it) the monsters and combat lend heavily to the atmosphere, which is not just a magical thing that the game somehow produces through a complex biological reaction, but instead the sum total of all the games parts and how they help the player get into it; If there were only a few scripted chases and you never found a weapon you'd be aware you were safe most of the time Like in shattered memories for example, the silent hill with no combat but lots of running
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Mar 25, 2017 14:55
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I wonder what would happen if you just made the enemies scar and passive so that the player felt like they had to kill them although in reality they can't actually hurt you. That might have been thematically appropriate. Also the chase sequence from SH2 was great, the problem with shattered memories had more to do with lots of it being poorly executed than anything fundamental to the choices made
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Mar 25, 2017 15:22
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hanales posted:The Silent Hill series is not good enough to warrant this passionate of discourse. 
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Mar 25, 2017 15:34
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hanales posted:The Silent Hill series is not good enough to warrant this passionate of discourse. I find your tastes questionable, good sir/madam/xir
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Mar 25, 2017 16:53
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Tendales posted:Is there any game where the asylum is actually an asylum? The Evil Within, kind of
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Mar 25, 2017 17:07
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Combat in horror games like SH2 feels to me like the drumbeat of a pop song. It's repetitive and sorta fades into the background but it's crucial to keep you constantly engaged and the relative constancy helps the big "solo" moments stand out more. It worked in SH2. They needed to switch the beat up in Outlast, really dragged by the end of the track.
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Mar 25, 2017 17:37
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Mr. Fortitude posted:With the pistons moving up and down? Yeah. It creeped me out as a teenager and it still kind of makes me uncomfortable now. Tired Moritz posted:All horror games are bad except anime manga horror story Agreed  Jukebox Hero posted:If James had a secret backstory about how he's scared of people running fast then fine but you can't just say 'sh2 would be better with no combat and chase sequences and if it was two hours long' because then it's a game with a plot about a depressed miserable rear end in a top hat trying to find a reason to not kill himself but the GAME part is just chase sequences and point and click adventure sequences(or just the normal game but without fighting, in which case you're literally saying 'this game needs less features') none of that boring awful gameplay to get in the way of the cutscenes. I really have nothing left to say to you. You equate quality with length, and that's just wrong both on a design level and literally because Silent Hill 2 offers plenty of content. And you can't see why axing half-baked features is a good thing, as if a mediocre 8 hour game is better than a good 4 hour game. I am literally saying "this game needs less features" and I defy why this is a bad thing. Am I still in 1998, are we still giving grades to "replay value"? Is this not the thread where the universal complain about Alien Isolation is that it's "10 hours longer than it should be?"  The 90s were rough But more than that you equate the theme in your head to this perceived style of gameplay but they don't tie together in the slightest. All the characters are running from their past, running from responsibility. Pyramid Head represents James' aggressive sexual frustration and it's not until the end of the game when he accepts responsibility that he stops running from Pyramid Head and fights. Furthermore running through Mary's conversation is a key part in the ending, part of James forgetting. The game literally rewards playing recklessly, torturing yourself, not healing, rushing your way through. Angela is the one depressed to inaction, her inner-monster is a slow moving flesh-bed. But James is running from himself and that's why Pyramid Head is a fast, violent, invincible ogre. Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:honestly we should be praising sh2 for decoupling its action difficulty and puzzle difficulty and i don't know why every other game ever doesn't do that I did! And I agree it's brilliant and more games need to do it. The puzzles feel "smarter" in Silent Hill, like someone was playing Myst and then Cronenberg'ed it up. And the most uneventful moments of Silent Hill are always the best. No other game makes reaching into a toilet or hole in the wall a lip biting experience.
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Mar 25, 2017 18:17
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al-azad posted:I really have nothing left to say to you. You sure managed a lot of words despite that Okay I'm not saying NOTHING benefits from being cut down I'm saying that the game silent hill 2 Would not be improved By being made into the outlast clone you keep describing No weapons: -The elevator sequence at the end where you dump your poo poo now means nothing but no flashlight -The great knife is now just a weapon PH uses and the symbolic power transfer of James taking it cannot happen -the well trap with the fake wall needs a new solution that has to be a little puzzle menu where no scawy monstaws can hurt you or just mashing examine on the walls, the worst solution -The lying figures can't jump out from under the cars and scare you because then you'd need to plan out a chase sequence -The Pyramid Head "chase sequences" that replaces the boss fights neuter James of any growth in trying to actively fight the manifestations of his darker impulses, instead they just run away/suicide Because? -etc If you have solutions to these concerns I'm ready to admit you're right and it'd be better as an outlast clone if you can prove that all this poo poo is either fat to be trimmed or can convincingly recontextualize it Jukebox Hero fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 19:30
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Jukebox Hero posted:No weapons: -The elevator sequence doesn't lose meaning. "Weight limit: one person" does not just mean dumping your weapons, it's leaving behind the weight you've carried with you since the beginning. More poignantly, the two items you can keep (but probably won't on your first play) are Mary's photo and letter because they are part of James as a person. Secondly, from a design perspective, your flashlight and radio are more useful than your weapons. Losing your eyes and ears is scarier than losing your armory. -I never used the great knife because the steel pipe is faster and just as effective. But the symbolism wasn't lost on me despite never equipping it and I don't know why you're advocating I would remove it completely? -Are you talking about the creeper room? The one filled with giant bugs that can kill you but you have all the time in the world to solve the randomly generated trial-and-error puzzle? The bugs are window dressing, they pose no threat unless you actually try to die. And I wouldn't remove them, their presence is enough. -The act of something surprising you is what makes this scary, not the ineffectual nearly-harmless enemy. Having stuff skitter about or walk in the foreground is scary. That illusion is broken when you have to clumsily whack at it. -What growth does James get from the boss fights? The first Pyramid Head "fight" is just avoiding him until he leaves. The second boss is Angela's fear and if you ask me using violence against the physical manifestation of rape as a man who's trying to make amends with his inner turmoil is pretty dumb. Not to mention it being a bad boss fight that's interesting only because it's creepy. Fighting Eddie might be the worse, one because James is nonplussed to kill a human being but from a narrative perspective you shoot this guy pointblank with a shotgun 20 times. I have to go back to the original on this one: Cybil was inaccurate, slow, and had a single magazine while Eddie is a crack shot, fast, and has infinite ammo despite wielding a six shooter. It would've made for a much more interesting encounter to avoid Eddie until he uses up his six shots then you can beat on him accentuating that he's just a fat manbabby who needs a gun to feel powerful. Lastly the final encounters don't need to happen. James admits to his true feelings and you wail on the Pyramid Heads but in the end they kill themselves. The fight exists because the developers were like "video game = combat so boss fight goes here." The results of the fight are completely separate from the battle that precedes. Good horror is an illusion. It's making the player fear what's not actually out there. The best parts of Silent Hill 2 do just that. You can still have life and death, monsters that scurry from under cars, and boss encounters without requiring the player to defeat them. And I'll flip the question back on you, what is the motivation for the monsters wanting to kill James? In SH1 the monsters are demons and Harry represents good. But Imamura said James reflects the evil that Harry was fighting. Pyramid Head wants to punish James, but every other monster should scurry in fear from James, especially the busty nurses. Murdering these twisted but benign "soured flesh" monsters would've been both more thematically appropriate but could've tied directly into gameplay. In the same way Kojima made The End difficult based on how many people you kill, Silent Hill 2 could've made the scripted encounters with Pyramid Head et al more involved as you go out of your way to murder the denizens of Silent Hill. Hell with a design like that I would totally reverse my opinion and say combat, despite being uninteresting, would be integral to the game. A violent James has a rough final fight while a saintly James has Pyramid Head immediately throwing itself on its spear at your feet. al-azad fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 20:51
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Jukebox Hero posted:I'm just honestly confused why you think that sh2 would be better if it ignored its own themes and made a 'game' part that was just built to tell a different story about some dude who runs a lot. maybe you weren't talking to me, but then that raises other questions so al-azad posted:The game literally rewards playing recklessly, torturing yourself, not healing, I absolutely disagree with what you've said about the elevator bit, as well. The reason that hit me so hard was because I had to drop any form of safety I'd been holding onto. Losing the flashlight and radio is still scary, but being unable to combat any further horrors is a huge part of that scare, and I absolutely do not think that would have nearly the same impact without the game being severely reworked. Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:honestly we should be praising sh2 for decoupling its action difficulty and puzzle difficulty and i don't know why every other game ever doesn't do that
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Mar 25, 2017 21:01
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"My fan fiction game that will never exist is superior to a game that has been appreciated and remembered as one of the bed of it's kind for a decade and a half neener neener neener" Why don't you go make Silent Hill Uranium somewhere else
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Mar 25, 2017 21:17
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Ultigonio posted:I'm not sure if I'm misreading what you're saying or there's just something I don't know, but playing recklessly and purposely keeping James at low health will only net you the worst ending, and I'd argue that the best (canon) ending requires the exact opposite. Which ending is "best" or "worst" may up for debate, but I certainly wouldn't say that the game rewards reckless play, especially since it dynamically offers healthkits based on how many you currently have, so resource management is hardly an issue. Furthermore, I think that allowing the player to kill some things and not others makes for a better contrast (see: Alien: Isolation), and I don't think that the combat being removed would save the game from being boring, because that forgettable two-hour chunk in the underground isn't even particularly heavy on combat (nor puzzle, nor much of anything). Or... maybe it is, and I've just forgotten about most of the combat because that's how boring it is. Either way, the combat in SH games exists in the interest of pacing, and I don't think removing it would be the right choice. Combat allows the player to take control of their situation, which is a good way for a game to pace out its horror - once you've gotten into the flow of an encounter, you'll ease up, let go the tension, and that means that you, as a player, are ready for the next big scare. Pacing a horror game can be done without combat, it's true, but I think "How can we make the combat better?" is a more involved conversation than "Should the combat be removed entirely?" Ironically the voice actor for James and the designer Ito consider In Water, the reckless suicidal ending, their personal canon. But interestingly SH2 never got an official canon ending and even all the supplementary material refuses to settle on a single thing. I'm not against "combat" as an idea, I'm against fighting as the be all end all solution. I'm more interested in alternate ways to overcome challenges: running, hiding, distracting, luring, setting traps, etc. A gun is the most boring and unimaginative solution to any problem in a video game. That's why giving up my weapons didn't mean much, the enemies are a non issue. The tension in that scene came from the thought of what challenge I might have to face naked, not being unable to literally fight it toe to toe. Hemingway To Go! posted:"My fan fiction game that will never exist is superior to a game that has been appreciated and remembered as one of the bed of it's kind for a decade and a half neener neener neener" And what elements have people appreciated and remembered for 16 years??????????
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Mar 25, 2017 21:30
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al-azad posted:And what elements have people appreciated and remembered for 16 years?????????? Pyramid Head Maria Circumcision Pyramid Head
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Mar 25, 2017 21:33
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Hemingway To Go! posted:"My fan fiction game that will never exist is superior to a game that has been appreciated and remembered as one of the bed of it's kind for a decade and a half neener neener neener" This dumb reductive crap is why I usually don't bother trying to field the position that SH2 is kind of flawed even compared to its contemporaries.
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Mar 25, 2017 21:34
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exploded mummy posted:Pyramid Head I liked when John Snow got killed.
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Mar 25, 2017 22:06
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exploded mummy posted:Circumcision al-azad posted:But interestingly SH2 never got an official canon ending and even all the supplementary material refuses to settle on a single thing. al-azad posted:I'm not against "combat" as an idea, I'm against fighting as the be all end all solution. I'm more interested in alternate ways to overcome challenges: running, hiding, distracting, luring, setting traps, etc. A gun is the most boring and unimaginative solution to any problem in a video game.
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Mar 25, 2017 22:08
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I've been meaning to play the PSP game which I hear has weapon durability which solves one issue I have. The steel pipe is just too good and there's no reason why I wouldn't use it.
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Mar 25, 2017 22:20
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Has anyone played Husk? I tried to, but it just runs so poorly that I kinda gave up in frustration. If anyone wanted to tell me what happens, that'd be great. 
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Mar 25, 2017 22:54
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Bogart posted:Has anyone played Husk? I tried to, but it just runs so poorly that I kinda gave up in frustration. If anyone wanted to tell me what happens, that'd be great. I watched HarshlyCritical's video (who now goes by John Wolfe, ditching his internet persona) and he got bored of it. Even the worst games he at least tries to finish.
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Mar 25, 2017 22:58
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al-azad posted:I've been meaning to play the PSP game which I hear has weapon durability which solves one issue I have. The steel pipe is just too good and there's no reason why I wouldn't use it. Origins is pretty bad and I don't recommend it. The weapon durability thing is annoying as balls because weapons are super fragile and won't last single enemy encounters and you don't swap to another weapon when one breaks, you go to the fists. And "Quick Select" is not very quick. And throwable weapons are poo poo. And QTE enemy grabs are annoying. Protip if you insist on playing that game: Weapon durability goes off number of hits, not strength, lots of weak hits are poo poo damage and will break your stock of Katanas super quickly, use power attacks. How do you do a power attack? Kinda click the stick in the direction you wanna attack in and hit attack at roughly the same time and you might get one off if the game is in a good mood. SuccinctAndPunchy fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 23:42
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Jukebox Hero posted:Wow four whole chases. The problem with Shattered Memories was that it had terrible writing, not that there wasn't combat.
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Mar 26, 2017 00:00
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Improbable Lobster posted:The problem with Shattered Memories was that it had terrible writing, not that there wasn't combat. I dunno, I felt the writing was good enough for me to enjoy it but I didn't think the gameplay held up at all. The running aimlessly and hiding bit wasn't fun.
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Mar 26, 2017 02:38
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My favorite thing about this dumb argument is al-azad claiming the elevator bit would be just as scary with no combat because you're getting rid of your radio without realising that no combat would make the radio completely pointless.
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Mar 26, 2017 02:38
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I'm a little at odds in this conversation. I really think there's a whole lot of personal preference in this which is sparking such extreme reactions. I mean- when it comes down to it horror is trying to invoke fear in you- fight or flight! Some people want one, some want the other, some want both! And that's okay! It's just that when games go too far one way or the other, or the systems aren't built up well enough to really convey each individually, it becomes frustrating or tedious instead of fun. Resident Evil 4 was scary for about an hour until you become a warmongering monster, and that completely removes the horror element and really makes the game a thriller, if anything. I would say it went a bit hard on the fight angle. The Clock Tower series went in the exact other direction, where you can barely defend yourself at the best of times, and you need to know where to look to even try. You can find hiding spots and HOPE you don't die, full on flight, which is also thrilling, but some may find un-engaging. Silent Hill 2 is somewhere between- the controls are clunky and it has this mind horror thing going on, but I think many people find it strikes a happy enough medium that they're satisfied with it. I think there's absolutely a spectrum and striking dead center between deciding to fight or flee and have both options be equally meaningful is something not many games have accomplished. Haunting Ground comes to the top of my head, and while it definitely pushes the flee angle harder, fighting is always an option.
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Mar 26, 2017 02:54
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al-azad posted:Having stuff skitter about or walk in the foreground is scary. That illusion is broken when you have to clumsily whack at it. For some people, the illusion is also broken as soon as you determine that the stuff in the foreground is never going to threaten you in any way. The currently popular compromise (Outlast/SOMA/Amnesia/etc.) tries to address this by letting them threaten you, but not letting you interact with them beyond maybe throwing a thing to make noise. This is an absurdly shallow design and I was bored of it before I finished Amnesia although I admit it seems to have staying power for some people. There's certainly potential design space for interaction that isn't just murdering all the monsters, but with the caveat that I haven't played Isolation yet I have so far been profoundly unimpressed by all attempts to explore it. Among the currently prominent categories of pipe-bashing, walking sim, and hiding in the closet then tabbing out for a minute, I'll happily take pipe bashing every time.
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Mar 26, 2017 03:02
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s.i.r.e. posted:I dunno, I felt the writing was good enough for me to enjoy it but I didn't think the gameplay held up at all. The running aimlessly and hiding bit wasn't fun. I really didn't like a lot of the writing.
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Mar 26, 2017 03:04
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This discussion has reminded me what a masterpiece of horror design Silent Hill 1's first boss is. Enemies in horror games are only scary so long as they can threaten you, and that lizard thing specifically required you to bait out an instantly fatal attack to do damage. It's a simple pattern and not real challenging but you CANNOT mess up and that pressure keeps the horror intact. Add to that the low light of the encounter, the claustrophobic camera, the cacophonous audio track, and the lead up where you descend a nonsensical distance into the earth, and you get something that I'm not sure has ever been topped in terms of having an easy yet frightening boss fight. Makes it all the more confusing that the rest of the bosses are just giant practice targets, too. How the hell did they fall off that hard?
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Mar 26, 2017 03:25
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Improbable Lobster posted:I really didn't like a lot of the writing. I'm the tiger in space
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Mar 26, 2017 04:14
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Catfishenfuego posted:My favorite thing about this dumb argument is al-azad claiming the elevator bit would be just as scary with no combat because you're getting rid of your radio without realising that no combat would make the radio completely pointless. Conflict != combat Conflict != combat Conflict != combat I'm out!
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Mar 26, 2017 04:29
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I wonder if people who make horror games hate Silent Hill 2 because that's all horror game fans talk about and compare things to.
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Mar 26, 2017 04:31
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al-azad posted:Conflict != combat Okay so how exactly do you do conflict with no physical threat that isn't just chase scenes or dodging attacks until a door opens or sneaking around hitting switches, all of which can be done in a game with actual combat as a way to variate the gameplay? Would we keep the nurses and patient demons and mannequins or should we cut out the parts where PH tortures the same monsters you've been killing viciously to reinforce the link between James and PH Has anyone ever actually gone "I'm out!" on the internet and not sounded either insincere or ridiculous? Jukebox Hero fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 26, 2017 06:59
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oh shut up
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Mar 26, 2017 17:17
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Bogart posted:oh shut up Seriously this debate has gone on entirely too long. You both like different things can we just agree to disagree?
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Mar 26, 2017 17:20
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Bogart posted:oh shut up
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Mar 26, 2017 17:20
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I think I'm coming around on RE7. Marguerite and the old house solidified how amazing the sound design and atmosphere of this game is and her boss fight downplays what I don't like (lousy combat) while turning it into a cat-and-mouse game where spurts of tension are sandwiched between moments of calm as you follow the sounds of her giving birth. Jack's portion was really underwhelming with its boring environment and lumbering enemies you're not really equipped to handle and I think it should've been moved to the second third instead of the first. Marguerite was great atmosphere, great sound design, and my favorite visual design since Mendez. And I need to remember to block, god drat. You move so slowly, and the levels are so claustrophobic that I feel like getting hit is an inevitability. But enemies give a long pause after they slap you and it's obvious they balanced the game around baiting attacks, minimizing the damage, then unloading point blank. edit: I take it back, the gunplay is pretty good and fights are spaced out far enough to make every encounter special. I just really had a bad experience with the molded. You have nothing going into that part of the game and the molded are like RE zombies except they can open doors and aren't nearly as clumsy and avoidable as RE zombies. It felt like what it would be encountering a regenerator in the first hour of RE4. al-azad fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 01:38
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Yes, block everything. Like, everything regardless of how much sense it makes to do so because it is always an extremely effective way to prolong the fine art of living.
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Mar 27, 2017 09:30
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Blocking was probably my favorite control addition to RE7, the fact it was ultra useful made it even cooler; Realizing it worked with anything afaik was a big deal
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Mar 27, 2017 11:59
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FirstAidKite posted:I feel like some of the scariest stuff is the stuff you can potentially miss. Quoting this from 2 pages back but Bloodborne exploits this pretty well with the Amygdalas that appear when you reach 30 insight/defeat a specific boss "Wait a minute... these have been here all along ?" 
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Mar 27, 2017 16:46
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Sassy Sasquatch posted:Quoting this from 2 pages back but Bloodborne exploits this pretty well with the Amygdalas that appear when you reach 30 insight/defeat a specific boss My favourite part of that is encountering the near-fatal attack only happens if you go for a crappy shiny item. You just dismiss it as being a one off trap spell or something similar, at least until later. I'd be interested in more examples as well, I can't think of anything specific off the top of my head. Anytime you're being watched without being aware of it until you find the camera/peephole is creepy but that's normally more of a narrative threat than a gameplay one.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:19
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The giant eye that can open below you at random in Sunless Sea scared the poo poo out of me
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Mar 29, 2017 00:19
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