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BravestOfTheLamps posted:All the talk of Wolverine-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is. All the talk of Jesus-Christ-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is.
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Mar 28, 2017 13:09
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ungulateman posted:All the talk of Jesus-Christ-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is. You say this like it means anything.
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Mar 28, 2017 14:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:All the talk of Wolverine-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is. As a child I know I'd look
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Mar 28, 2017 14:21
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ungulateman posted:All the talk of Jesus-Christ-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is. Wolverine is not a profound figure, let alone as profound as Jesus Christ. I mean, really, that's the comparison you're going to go with? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 15:41
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wolverine is not a profound figure, let alone as profound as Jesus Christ. I mean, really, that's the comparison you're going to go with? I mean if you showed a kid action figures of Wolverine and of Jesus Christ which do you think they'd be able to identify? Makes you think...
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Mar 28, 2017 16:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:All the talk of Wolverine-as-myth becomes incredibly facile once you actually consider what that myth is. Look, I see why you don't like the idea, but think about it for a second. If not superheroes, then what would you consider the modern equivalent of mythic heroes? What, in your mind, fills the cultural niche in modern America that, in ancient times, was filled by characters such as Gilgamesh, Achilles, Odysseus, et cetera?
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Mar 28, 2017 17:25
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MarcusSA posted:I mean if you showed a kid action figures of Wolverine and of Jesus Christ which do you think they'd be able to identify? depends if it was an action figure of wolverine or logan and of lily white republican jesus or the actual jesus christ both brands that became more championed and useful for explotiation by excising the man behind it
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Mar 28, 2017 17:36
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Look, I see why you don't like the idea, but think about it for a second. If not superheroes, then what would you consider the modern equivalent of mythic heroes? Historical and semi-historical figures, like Jesus, who are figures of common and shared cultural significance in our myths. Certainly not superheroes, since they're products of mass market pulp fiction rather than collectively produced mythology and folklore like Gilgamesh, Achilles, Odysseus, etc. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 17:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Historical and semi-historical figures, like Jesus, who are figures of common and shared cultural significance in our myths. Lincolnman, with the crippling weakness to bullets.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:47
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The casino was on Oklahoma City, right? They didn't go to Vegas?
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Mar 28, 2017 21:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Historical and semi-historical figures, like Jesus, who are figures of common and shared cultural significance in our myths. You're one downer of a poster man, in multiple threads. Check yoself.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:12
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Gilgamesh never punched Hitler.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Historical and semi-historical figures, like Jesus, who are figures of common and shared cultural significance in our myths. I agree with you in general, though I'd argue for The Punisher as being absorbed as part of folk mythology in the police and military. But definitely not superheroes as a whole and definitely not Wolverine. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 22:51
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What about Thor
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Mar 28, 2017 23:39
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So are we talking about Wolverine being a myth in the for real world? Or within the world of the 2017 movie Logan?
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Mar 29, 2017 00:37
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RBA Starblade posted:What about Thor Mythological Thor has some currency in white supremacist circles, the comic book character not at all, as far as I know. UmOk posted:So are we talking about Wolverine being a myth in the for real world? Or within the world of the 2017 movie Logan? We're talking about the former because it informs our reading of the latter. A movie about The Punisher interacting with in-universe cops and soldiers wearing Punisher gear would be a whole other sort of thing than Logan because it would be impossible to separate from the real world cops and soldiers who actually model themselves, or at least their image, after the character. Logan simply uses the well-established setup of the young gunfighter meeting the old legend and being disappointed. The comic books about Wolverine are a replacement for some character having a penny dreadful about Buffalo Bill or whoever. And it's a fine hook for a story. But superheroes as the modern equivalent of mythic heroes doesn't make a ton of sense outside of a few specific examples that have effectively been taken over by the actual participants in some culture.
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Mar 29, 2017 00:53
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Modern day mythic figures include George Washington, Johnny Appleseed, Elvis, 80s Michael Jackson, 90s Michael Jordan, Steve Irwin.
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Mar 29, 2017 01:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Certainly not superheroes, since they're products of mass market pulp fiction rather than collectively produced mythology and folklore like Gilgamesh, Achilles, Odysseus, etc. All those characters were created by bards travelling around telling stories for money. The specifics and details changed from each telling to the next. Whereas comic book characters were created by writers for money. The specifics and details change from one telling to the next.
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Mar 29, 2017 01:40
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Yeah I saw the whole Wolverine as a reluctant legend bitbeing part of the film being a Western. Its basically the closest to a superhero Unforgiven we're gonna get.Sir Kodiak posted:Mythological Thor has some currency in white supremacist circles, the comic book character not at all, as far as I know. God drat Nazis appropriating my culture and history I ought to put a horse head on a pole carved with runic curses and face it their way.
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Mar 29, 2017 02:08
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FreudianSlippers posted:God drat Nazis appropriating my culture and history I ought to put a horse head on a pole carved with runic curses and face it their way. Actual white supremacists did get super angry at a particular bit of casting in the Thor movies. You might be able to guess which bit it was.
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Mar 29, 2017 02:28
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Those were Nordic mythology authenticists actually
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Mar 29, 2017 02:31
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I bet there was some Roman centurion making fun of all the little Jew kids with their Jesus
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Mar 29, 2017 02:44
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Snowman_McK posted:Actual white supremacists did get super angry at a particular bit of casting in the Thor movies. You might be able to guess which bit it was. The Asian guy from Mongolia world?
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Mar 29, 2017 03:10
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ruddiger posted:I bet there was some Roman centurion making fun of all the little Jew kids with their Jesus My two favorite ancient rome facts are that they made action figures of gladiators complete with accessories, and that the wall carvings/graffiti is more or less what we post right now. "i'm gay"s and all.
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Mar 29, 2017 03:15
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Superheroes are most definitely myths, like I can't imagine what pedantic definition of myth you're using that doesn't concern a larger than life story of good vs. evil. Logan even has the added benefit of spelling out how these goofy stories help kids shape a view of thew world, and create a better one! Let's talk about cowboys though, our view of the cowboy is complete myth, or to put it otherwise a goddamn lie, modern views of the wild west and cowboys come from Buffalo Bill's Wild West, basically circus a show put on to entertain people. This later informed the western movies and TV shows, so we end up with a completely falsified view of what the West was actually like. There were no lone gunslingers, good or bad, or little houses on the prairie, it was mostly just a lot of disease and prostitutes.
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Mar 29, 2017 03:32
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RBA Starblade posted:My two favorite ancient rome facts are that they made action figures of gladiators complete with accessories, and that the wall carvings/graffiti is more or less what we post right now. "i'm gay"s and all. Yeah, the surviving graffiti in places like Pompeii and such is amazing. “Restituta, take off your tunic, please, and show us your hairy privates”
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Mar 29, 2017 03:34
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wyoming posted:Superheroes are most definitely myths, like I can't imagine what pedantic definition of myth you're using that doesn't concern a larger than life story of good vs. evil. I'm not trying to get into a debate about the meaning of the word. The point is that there's a big difference between how real kids relate to Wolverine comics and how the kids in the movie Logan related to Wolverine comics.
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Mar 29, 2017 03:58
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm not trying to get into a debate about the meaning of the word. The point is that there's a big difference between how real kids relate to Wolverine comics and how the kids in the movie Logan related to Wolverine comics. More a dig at the dude that doesn't know what WASP or facile mean. And I mean yeah, which is why I mentioned toys of soldiers and cowboys in my first post. Cowboys and soldiers exist, just not as our stories mythologize them. Which is why the comics are so great in Logan, he fills that role, and the kids using the co-ordinates in the comic to create their own Eden is beautiful. Even if we have no super powers analogues in this world, I'd argue superpants are still important myths that shape our world, or at least how to view them.
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Mar 29, 2017 04:19
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wyoming posted:Superheroes are most definitely myths, like I can't imagine what pedantic definition of myth you're using that doesn't concern a larger than life story of good vs. evil. "A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon." - OED The lesson from that is that myth is rather opposed to superheroes. Myth appeals to sense of history and community, while superheroes are recognizably artifacts of pop culture that generally evoke a sense of play. We experience mythical figures as historical or semi-historical figures. In Logan superhero comics are explicitly recognized as fabrications. Of course, it's not like pop culture can't adapt myth, like with 300. Children don't find myth in toys. They find myth in their schoolbooks. e: Of course, there's an argument to be made here that the comic books are the kids' schoolbooks in the movie. There's also the uncomfortable part that people prefer to ignore, which is that this likens them to Alexander Pierce. wyoming posted:And I mean yeah, which is why I mentioned toys of soldiers and cowboys in my first post. Cowboys and soldiers exist, just not as our stories mythologize them. Which is why the comics are so great in Logan, he fills that role, and the kids using the co-ordinates in the comic to create their own Eden is beautiful. Not really, since it's not depicted at all within the movie. Community is alien and unknowable in Logan, so there is no Eden. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 06:30
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"People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I think that what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That's what it's all finally about, and that's what these clues help us to find within ourselves." "Myths are clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human life." - Joseph Campbell Only the dead are found in history books, myths are living and breathing stories of what we are.
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Mar 29, 2017 07:26
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Ever read Beowulf, Bravest?
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Mar 29, 2017 09:48
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wyoming posted:"People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I think that what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That's what it's all finally about, and that's what these clues help us to find within ourselves." Okay, so you've appealed to Campbell's insipid pseudo-spirituality. You're making the argument that superhero products are fundamentally vehicles of spiritual satisfaction akin to the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita. This seems more like a condemnation of modern culture than anything, as in how the children in Logan are so deprived of a normal childhood that they cling to comics as their scripture. And lol, you reject the purpose and meaning of history to defend funnybooks. Hodgepodge posted:Ever read Beowulf, Bravest? It's not very much like Logan, except for the most basic of similarities like "hero fights monster". BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 12:32
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I'm not sure why using a fascistic definition of myth would condemn pop-culture products for not being mythological.
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Mar 29, 2017 13:11
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It's very superhero-ish though. Beowulf swims from England to Norway iirc, then gives a speech about how awesome he is. You also seem to assume that comic books are too lowbrow to derive "spiritual satisfaction" from. I'm very much in doubt of the notion that you have any substantial familiarity with the works you're mystifying here. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 14:32
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That's not particularly superheroic though, especially since he's not a crime-fighter with a colourful costume and alter ego. And the actual deed spoken in the flyting is that he swam for five days and five nights in a contest, only to get into a fight with sea-monsters that he slew. Now, I cannot recall any fight that you entered, Hodgepodge, that bears comparison. Hodgepodge posted:You also seem to assume that comic books are too lowbrow to derive "spiritual satisfaction" from. I'm very much in doubt of the notion that you have any substantial familiarity with the works you're mystifying here. I specifically said superhero products, not all comic books. e: There's maybe Snyder's Superman and that's about it. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 14:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's not particularly superheroic though, especially since he's not a crime-fighter with a colourful costume and alter ego. Well, Beowulf is out to establish his fame (at least initially), and is wearing armor, etc. He isn't wearing spandex, of course, but in a sense he'd be most comparable to Tony Stark as superheroes go. There's various works that feature superheroes that stand out as maybe worthy to be listed with the great works of mythology. But it isn't hard to find a lovely kid's book of bible stories or one of Krishna's adventures either.
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Mar 29, 2017 15:07
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The inability to recognize that mythology didn't begin as mythology is pretty sad.
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Mar 29, 2017 16:06
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:And lol, you reject the purpose and meaning of history to defend funnybooks. 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!' lol that you think your western fed education has a sense of what "history" is.
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Mar 29, 2017 16:09
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Hodgepodge posted:Well, Beowulf is out to establish his fame (at least initially), and is wearing armor, etc. He isn't wearing spandex, of course, but in a sense he'd be most comparable to Tony Stark as superheroes go. No, I don't think Beowulf is much like Tony Stark, to be honest. ruddiger posted:'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!' Alas, good friend, what profit can you see In hating such a hateless thing as me? There is no sport in hate when all the rage is on one side. In vain would you assuage Your frowns upon an unresisting smile In which not even contempt lurks to beguile Your heart, by some faint sympathy of hate. O conquer what you cannot satiate!
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Mar 29, 2017 16:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's not particularly superheroic though, especially since he's not a crime-fighter with a colourful costume and alter ego. Neither is Logan.
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Mar 29, 2017 17:32
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