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STAC Goat posted:I have zero problem with the way they've been working Dinah into the team and story and this all feels a little weirdly over-reactive to me to a totally speculative idea. It took me the entire season to warm up to Wild Dog but he's one of my favorites on the team now. Give it time. Dinah'll get there.
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Mar 30, 2017 03:44
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howe_sam posted:I thought it was overall sort of a middling episode -- because sweet Christ I am bored with Oliver's angst over whether or not he's a monster -- but that ending Yeah I'm going with you on this
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Mar 30, 2017 04:17
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I'm going to miss Adrian at the office though.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:23
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I really hope Chase doesn't come up with a plot to kill a large amount of people as his endgame. Having him just be a dude out for pure revenge on Oliver and company as his only plan, while having the team utilize more resources to take him down than they ever have on anyone before really cements him as the best DCCW villain to date.
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Mar 30, 2017 05:14
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Beautiful ending
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Mar 30, 2017 05:42
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Guy Goodbody posted:A lot of Kord references in the CW shows recently. They've namedropped Kord a ton, I think as far back as S2 with the Flash backdoor-ish episode where Cisco and Kaitlyn debuted. I remember reading something about how they wanted Ray Palmer/Atom to actually be Ted Kord/Blue Beetle originally but got blocked by some other DC plan that doesn't seem to have happened yet.  theory: With the Kord references and the Hub City appearance that's references to two of the Watchmen inspiration Charlton characters, no? Blue Beetle/Nite Owl and Question/Rorschach. So what else? Captain Atom/Dr. Manhattan, Comedian/Peacemaker, Ozymandis/Thunderbolt, and Spectre/Nightshade. Will be interesting if any of those others get references down the line. Probably not an actual setup or anything, but maybe some writer is a fan. Its almost certainly not anything, but its fun to think about.
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Mar 30, 2017 05:58
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ApeHawk posted:I really hope Chase doesn't come up with a plot to kill a large amount of people as his endgame. Having him just be a dude out for pure revenge on Oliver and company as his only plan, while having the team utilize more resources to take him down than they ever have on anyone before really cements him as the best DCCW villain to date. They've said the finale is a personal battle and the city will not be in danger.
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Mar 30, 2017 06:02
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With this episode, they've really done a good job of tying in the flashbacks to the current time. I know this isn't the KGBeast we ever expected, but Anatoly has always been a good and welcome character. I guess this was as good an episode as any to start the month-long wait. Sigh. Other thoughts: -Curtis actually namedropping IRC. -That shot following Oliver through the ceiling grate was drat good. -I've thought this occasionally from a while back, but the Prometheus music cue is a bit grating. -That music choice at the end was so unexpected for this show, but good.
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Mar 30, 2017 10:59
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Outing Chase also gives Mayor Ollie room to discount everything he's said recently about the Green Arrow - obviously he's a cool guy and DA Chase, known psychopath, was strong-arming the mayor into saying all of that. And every person Chase kills from here on out cements that story. Hell Prometheus probably killed Billy, somehow.
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Mar 30, 2017 14:20
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OB_Juan posted:Outing Chase also gives Mayor Ollie room to discount everything he's said recently about the Green Arrow - obviously he's a cool guy and DA Chase, known psychopath, was strong-arming the mayor into saying all of that. And every person Chase kills from here on out cements that story. As part of The New Admitted to Serial Killing Oliver, I'm pretty sure the Green Arrow will release a statement exonerating himself along those lines but owning up to killing Billy. Hell, it has the advantage of making the original coroner's report right, which means a lot of those councilmen are suddenly going to face stiff challenges in their districts 
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Mar 30, 2017 14:29
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The Green Arrow, like The Arrow and The Hood before him, turned out not to be what this city needs. I am here to take up his crusade, but to bring it into the light, not hide in the darkness. I'm the Neon Arrow.
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Mar 30, 2017 14:33
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Aphrodite posted:The Green Arrow, like The Arrow and The Hood before him, turned out not to be what this city needs. That certainly is someone else...something else.
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Mar 30, 2017 14:35
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The crisp citrus taste of the Lime Arrow will bring a refreshing burst of juicy justice to this city.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:27
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McSpanky posted:The crisp citrus taste of the Lime Arrow will bring a refreshing burst of juicy justice to this city. You can pair it with Stride Gum for a taste extravaganza!
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Mar 30, 2017 17:49
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McSpanky posted:The crisp citrus taste of the Lime Arrow will bring a refreshing burst of juicy justice to this city.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:59
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I still think there's like 50/50 odds that the season ends with the show copying the comics and having Oliver just out himself and be Mayor Green Arrow. I don't know if that's really tenable for the future of the show but it seems to fit with all the themes of this season, especially all the recent flashback stuff about Anatoly telling him he can't just split himself into two people with a hood and Chase making him accept that he was using it as an excuse. And yeah, I've always liked Anatoly and I hope he remains a recurring player in the present going forward. The idea of the guy who wanted to reform the Bratva and use it for good but got corrupted when Oliver left him is a really interesting foil for Oliver.
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Mar 30, 2017 19:24
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STAC Goat posted:And yeah, I've always liked Anatoly and I hope he remains a recurring player in the present going forward. The idea of the guy who wanted to reform the Bratva and use it for good but got corrupted when Oliver left him is a really interesting foil for Oliver. I was so happy Ollie called him on his poo poo before he left. "And for what? *dripping contempt for a child* A payday." was an incredible  I didn't expect.
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Mar 30, 2017 20:26
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Yeah, it was a cool direction the show took with him. We've known Anatoly for seasons and he's always come off as a good guy and a true friend to Oliver almost along the lines of Diggle. Then you throw this curve where four-five years of his life is missing and during that time he's become a corrupt, ruthless gangster who is willing to steal diabetic drugs to make heroin and kill innocents just to have leverage over an enemy. Its a shock and I think it creates an interesting character for Oliver to be conflicted with and a foil to help bring Oliver back from his self hate in seeing how much progress he's made in one direction over those years as opposed to Anatoly going in the opposite direction. I just hope it wasn't JUST there to bring Oliver back from the brink Prometheus pushed him to, but that it remains a factor in Season 6. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 20:32
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I don't know. Part of me kept thinking Oliver was being a dick getting Anatoly and his men to come all the way from Russia on the pretense of an exchange of goods and services, but then reneging on the deal, fighting/killing them, and then ripping into his "friend" at the end... ...But maybe that was just me. Longbaugh01 fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 20:44
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Longbaugh01 posted:I don't know. Part of me kept thinking Oliver was being a dick getting Anatomy and his men to come all the way from Russia on the pretense of an exchange of goods and services, but then reneging on the deal, fighting/killing them, and then ripping into his "friend" at the end...
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Mar 30, 2017 20:49
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I mean, that's kind of the whole debate of the episode and the whole Anatoly foil. Especially playing the present scene of Anatoly stealing drugs from sick people to five years earlier when he was giving them to sick people. Oliver calling Anatoly in the first place was hosed up and Diggle was trying to protect him from that bad choice. When Oliver breaks the deal he's making the moral choice. Anatoly argues he's being a bad friend and "brother" by betraying him but Oliver correctly points out that the old Anatoly would have never done the evil things he had done in this deal. So like, Oliver might not have followed business ethics but he certainly had the moral high ground by the end of the episode. Unless you take the side of Russian gangsters killing innocents so they can steal drugs from poor people to make heroin. that one guy posted:I had some of those feelings. I think it was mostly because I was thinking "he's a freaking gangster in a brutal, ruthless organization, what do you expect him to be doing?" I like Anatoly and always have, he's seemed like a pretty cool guy, and I wanted to root for him and thought Oliver was being a jerk to him...but he also was doing really bad stuff. Oliver's holier-than-thou attitude was a bit out of place still. He really wasn't "holier than thou" though. Like, he spent the entire episode hating himself and calling himself a monster and by the end had just reached "I want to change and I need help." He wasn't saying "I'm better than you, Anatoly". He was saying "You're better than this, Anatoly, and we can both make up for our mistakes." STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 20:54
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Oliver started off on the losing moral side when he specifically called the guy to come in with his goons to attack a police convoy and kill a guy (not to mention the police escorts that would have been AK-47'd, thanks Mr. Mayor!).
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Mar 30, 2017 21:11
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STAC Goat posted:He really wasn't "holier than thou" though. Like, he spent the entire episode hating himself and calling himself a monster and by the end had just reached "I want to change and I need help." He wasn't saying "I'm better than you, Anatoly". He was saying "You're better than this, Anatoly, and we can both make up for our mistakes." Burning_Monk posted:Oliver started off on the losing moral side when he specifically called the guy to come in with his goons to attack a police convoy and kill a guy (not to mention the police escorts that would have been AK-47'd, thanks Mr. Mayor!). put a bad taste in my mouth regarding the way Oliver was treating Anatoly (probably added to that is the fact that I like Anatoly). You can hand-wring about being a bastard all you want but it seemed to me Oliver was talking more about Anatoly being wrong, not his own wrongs. It didn't seem Oliver was owning his own part of it enough to me. I can see what you're saying, too, though. fake edit: And Anatoly is a gangster! If you're really "better than this" don't be a murderous gangster in the first place. How is this a surprise, I'm left wondering.
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Mar 30, 2017 21:24
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But that was the whole point of the episode. Oliver calling in Anatoly was WRONG and BAD and crossing a line. Which is why Diggle spent the entire episode trying to stop Anatoly even as Rene and Felicity were all "eh, maybe we should just let him kill Prometheus and solve our problem?" Because Diggle recognized Oliver's guilt in this and wanted to save him from having to live with the consequences of it. And then by the end Oliver accepts Diggle's argument that "if you don't think you're worthy, then fight to make yourself worthy/If you have something to pay for, then do your penance by fighting." When he confronts Anatoly about evil things he's done its juxtaposed directly against Anatoly five years earlier trying to stop Oliver from becoming the killer Chase exposed him as and encourage him to help people in need. He had contempt for the man Anatoly had become but that contempt came from the entire episode building up Oliver's own guilt and shame and the better man Anatoly once was. He wanted Anatoly to be as ashamed as he was. He was basically hoping to show Anatoly that he had to change the same way Chase had shown him. But without the torture and mass murder. That's why I think its such an interesting dynamic and hope it isn't done. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 21:30
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I get it, I just came away from it with a bad taste in my mouth for Oliver. I'm not saying he did the wrong thing. I just don't like the way he did it. But he's (an imaginary) human and that's how we roll.
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Mar 30, 2017 21:34
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Yeah, I get what you're saying too. That's just Oliver. His whole thing is to dictate morality from a soap box all while he's clearly the most morally questionable guy in the room. It always comes off a little hypocritical but he's also usually right. And filled with self loathing. Its ok to kind of hate Oliver and think he's an rear end in a top hat, because he clearly does. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 21:39
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I'm just saying', flying all the way from Russia and back for nothing probably sucked. I can imagine Anatoly grumbling, pounding vodka, and crossing a bunch of names off his "favorite American list" the whole way back.
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Mar 30, 2017 21:51
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, I get what you're saying too. That's just Oliver. His whole thing is to dictate morality from a soap box all while he's clearly the most morally questionable guy in the room. It always comes off a little hypocritical but he's also usually right. And filled with self loathing. Known murder Barry Allen pointed this during the first crossover. The Arrow is a dick, Oliver needs to be better and could inspire people if he got out of his own way.
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Mar 31, 2017 01:03
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It's seriously a tough battle between Chase and Slade for best Arrow villain, but I'm glad we're back to the point where that kind of quality is in the picture. I don't know if I'd call this season better than S2 yet, since we still have time, but it's close and that's more than I ever expected of this show after the last two seasons. Actually considered stopping watching but I'm so glad I didn't. Really hoping S6 continues that trend, but it's going to be weird not having any flashbacks. Speaking of flashbacks, early on in Season 1, Ollie speaks some sort of Chinese with "a perfect accent" but are we ever shown when he learns Chinese?
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Mar 31, 2017 01:40
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I believe Shado teaches him when they're on the island with Slade. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 01:47
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When he spent a year in Hong Kong probably?
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Mar 31, 2017 01:48
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nvm
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Mar 31, 2017 01:51
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Burning_Monk posted:Katana is Japanese, no? Shado is Chinese and is Yao Fei's daughter who was on the island with him. Katana is Japanese and was the mother of the family in Hong Kong. There was some scene where Shado was teaching Oliver and Slade was jealous. So he probably started learning there and then continued while living in Hong Kong with Katana's family.
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Mar 31, 2017 01:55
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I think Chase is a better character who is a villain than Slade, but Slade was a more successful villain. So slightly different contexts there.
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Mar 31, 2017 02:03
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STAC Goat posted:I believe Shado teaches him when they're on the island with Slade. Aquasnake posted:When he spent a year in Hong Kong probably? I just figured they never showed it and I figured if he was in Hong Kong he would have learned Japanese if anything because that's what Maseo was. I just honestly couldn't remember if it was ever touched upon or if we were just supposed to assume he learned it at some point without seeing it happen.
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Mar 31, 2017 03:51
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I think it was kind of a little thing that was meant to show some of the good, human stuff Oliver experienced in his five years away. He had a girlfriend who taught him her native language when they lived together for almost a year and then perfected it living for about a year in a country that spoke it. Nice, normal person kind of thing from a very not normal time.
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Mar 31, 2017 04:57
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I still think Slade is the better character, but it's almost unfair to compare them considering we got a season and a half of flashback Slade to develop a relationship with before they revealed his present day heel turn. I'm still pissed off that the film side of DC has prevented them from returning to and possibly starting to redeem the character. It's very impressive though that Chase at the point where people are debating whether or not he's a better character than Slade, considering the advantage Slade had.
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Mar 31, 2017 05:05
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I think you guys are forgetting Slade's loving awful motivations.
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Mar 31, 2017 05:07
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Aphrodite posted:I think you guys are forgetting Slade's loving awful motivations. 60 year old japanese super soldier drugs made him cray-cray.
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Mar 31, 2017 05:12
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STAC Goat posted:I still think there's like 50/50 odds that the season ends with the show copying the comics and having Oliver just out himself and be Mayor Green Arrow. This didn't happen in the comics.
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Mar 31, 2017 05:56
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