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why do people keep humoring Neuroliminal
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Mar 30, 2017 22:49
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blackguy32 posted:Holy loving poo poo. You could not be any more tone deaf to push your fiscal equality above all. It's like you didn't even loving read my post. Those union protections, didn't really mean poo poo until black people fought for acceptance and equality. It is the same fight we are fighting today about how those economic protections aren't going to mean poo poo unless we fight for acceptance and equality. And because of those unions there existed protections to fight for, just as it was because of black workers that the unions held the power to improve the workers' lot. Racism and classism are inexcusable. quote:It's like you want us to grovel at the feet of poo poo stains of union leaders that excluded us because by pure coincidence we managed to secure some aspect of equality for ourselves, because I guarantee you, those union leaders? They didn't give a gently caress about us. I do not expect you to respect the dead racists who attempted to delay social progress. I only ask that you respect the living leaders who will fight on your behalf irregardless of your skin color. quote:I am distrustful of the far left. The excluded us from the start, and still continue to exclude us. They would rather drag down good well meaning people who actually spoke up for us and fight for us with right wing talking points instead of going after the person that is doing real damage to us. They would rather go after the party that has been allied with us instead of going after a bunch of vile racist poo poo. They would rather listen to the cries of White Working Class people rather than listen to disenfranchised people of color. No, I don't trust that these people have my best interests at heart. We are just a side note to them and the only reason we got recognition was because we bitched and complained and even then after that, that is all we got. A side note. There is no perfect man, and this is passed down to mans creations. Just as you can spend the day highlighting imperfections of the left of the past, one can spend a day highlighting of imperfections of the neoliberal of present. Or of Sanders, or of Lewis, or of Hillary, or of Shumer, or of any man group or product. We cannot expect perfection, only strive towards it and refuse to settle. This is not to excuse past mistakes, but a plea for hope for future endeavors. The fiscal leftists of today do not seek an end to a party that pushed for social progress. They seek an end to an old generation of imperfections so that they may strive for a more perfect tomorrow.
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Mar 30, 2017 22:52
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Neurolimal posted:And because of those unions there existed protections to fight for, just as it was because of black workers that the unions held the power to improve the workers' lot. Racism and classism are inexcusable. So where did you plagiarize this from?
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Mar 30, 2017 22:55
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Bringing this back to black people, we had a candidate. We supported her greatly. Our support was disparaged and many people sought to discard it because, we were primarily situated in the South. We had our candidate go to the general election, and the people that were supposedly on our side sought to rip her to shreds and repeat right wing talking points. So no, I still don't think you quite get how that feels. I don't think you quite get that for us, this election was much much more important than some stupid neoliberal slapfight against establishment Dems.
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Mar 30, 2017 22:59
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blackguy32 posted:Bringing this back to black people, we had a candidate. We supported her greatly. Our support was disparaged and many people sought to discard it because, we were primarily situated in the South. We had our candidate go to the general election, and the people that were supposedly on our side sought to rip her to shreds and repeat right wing talking points. Preemptive apologies to Fluffdaddy for the conservation that will occur. 90+% of Bernie's supporters voted for Hillary. Were barbs thrown at her by Sanders supporters? Yes, just as Hillary supporters threw barbs at Obama even after the primary, even while voting for him. This is a positive trait; even at our most unified, we should not be afraid to point out the mistakes and flaws of ourselves. I don't expect you to believe Sanders is perfect, despite him effectively leading the majority of Democratic supporters at this point.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:02
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Even though the UAW integrated officially in the 30s, actual integration didn't happen until the 60s, because black people would only be hired for segregated jobs, and it wasn't the UAW national that was responsible for Ford desegregating.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Even though the UAW integrated officially in the 30s, actual integration didn't happen until the 60s, because black people would only be hired for segregated jobs, and it wasn't the UAW national that was responsible for Ford desegregating. If any of the leaders of todays unions were also the leaders of those unions in the 60's, then I'm 100% okay with condemning them.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:07
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Neurolimal posted:If any of the leaders of todays unions were also the leaders of those unions in the 60's, then I'm 100% okay with condemning them. The point just did an Immelmann Turn over your head.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:08
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We are supposed to forget how those white liberals acted just a few decades ago but no it's totes different now.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:13
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Fluffdaddy posted:We are supposed to forget how those white liberals acted just a few decades ago but no it's totes different now. We are to forgive the sins of our fathers, not our fathers. If they refused to integrate in the past, then you cannot rely on them to integrate in the future unless they've proven themselves allies; if they had proven themselves allies Effectronic would not have brought them up. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2017 23:16
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Neurolimal posted:We are to forget the sins of our fathers, not our fathers. If they refused to integrate in the past, then you cannot rely on them to integrate in the future unless they've proven themselves allies; if they had proven themselves allies Effectronic would not have brought them up. What is this horseshit?
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Mar 30, 2017 23:18
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Brainiac Five posted:What is this horseshit? Do you disagree? If someone stonewalled integration in the past, would you trust them to do well by black issues in the present if that's their only contribution on the topic?
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Mar 30, 2017 23:19
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Neurolimal posted:The idea of that my posting was for it to sound like a careless goofus was saying it without respect or knowledge of black american plight.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:22
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blackguy32 posted:Bringing this back to black people, we had a candidate. We supported her greatly. Our support was disparaged and many people sought to discard it because, we were primarily situated in the South. We had our candidate go to the general election, and the people that were supposedly on our side sought to rip her to shreds and repeat right wing talking points. I feel like this post is hella treating black people like a monolithic entity tbh. What does the thread think of Malcom X's comment about how the Dems only enjoy such power because of the black vote yet the Dems consistently put racial issues on the backburner? Imo that's just as true today as it was 50-60 years ago when he said it. Obv Hillary is better than Trump but I'm just wary of people acting like the Dems are the saviors or something. Bill Clinton's administration was not very good for black people  Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 23:28
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Not really.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:31
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Fluffdaddy posted:Not really. "Hillary Clinton was the black people's candidate" is not treating black people like a monolithic entity? Not even considering turn out among black people was significantly less than in the 2012 election? e: I guess you could argue more black people were disenfranchised this time around, I have no idea. There are plenty of PoC who dislike HRC and the Dems, though. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 23:33
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Moridin920 posted:I feel like this post is hella treating black people like a monolithic entity tbh. Until you can tell me what her huge amount of support from black folks correlate into, I am going to continue seeing her as the candidate chosen by black people. As for Malcolm X, what of it? I disagree with your opinion, because this past election definitely placed those issues to the forefront. Also, has it ever occurred that maybe Hillary wasn't a lesser of two evils choice for us? That we actually liked her as a candidate? She listens and cares in a lot of places that are often forgotten by politicians.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:37
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blackguy32 posted:Also, has it ever occurred that maybe Hillary wasn't a lesser of two evils choice for us? That we actually liked her as a candidate? She listens and cares in a lot of places that are often forgotten by politicians. And I'm simply asking has it occurred to you that you don't speak for every single black person? Obviously some people actually liked her as a candidate, I didn't say no one did or that she was just the lesser of two evils. Puttin' words in my mouth there. What's your opinion on this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/us/politics/young-blacks-voice-skepticism-on-hillary-clinton-worrying-democrats.html e: fwiw I voted for Hillary, just in case anyone is wondering Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 23:38
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Angela Davis was similarly skeptical about Hillary.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:40
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Whooooo continued talking about old poo poo. This is totally useful.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:41
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Moridin920 posted:And I'm simply asking has it occurred to you that you don't speak for every single black person? Obviously some people actually liked her as a candidate, I didn't say no one did or that she was just the lesser of two evils. Puttin' words in my mouth there. You're right, I don't speak for every black person. But that 88 percent of black people voting for a particular candidate is meaningful. You know what, I am just going to leave it at that.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:46
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I'm just glad John Lewis isn't on a "poo poo list" and just on notice in case he "goes out of his way to spoil things". There's nothing to fear.
MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 23:47
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blackguy32 posted:You're right, I don't speak for every black person. But that 88 percent of black people voting for a particular candidate is meaningful. You know what, I am just going to leave it at that. It is meaningful but again that's just one metric. By another metric the voter turnout in states that really mattered (like FL) among black people was 30% or more less than the turnout for Obama. If every single eligible black person voted and HRC got 88% of the vote that'd be way more definitive. I'll drop it though All I'm saying is there are many black people who dislike the Clintons and they might have valid reasons, too. Most of the country didn't vote for either candidate after all.
Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 23:49
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*sigh* Funny that Black turnout dropped in states where they implemented the harshest laws targeting Voting rights.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:52
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Hey Neuroliminal, can I recommend you go read Dog Whistle Politics? I'm in the middle of it at the moment so it's on my mind, and it's a good primer to the Southern Strategy that help promulgate racism among the Republican Party for the last 60 years, and even goes into that while racism and economic anxiety are intrinsically linked factors in our current political divide, you do everyone a disservice by pretending they're the same loving thing. I would love a system that treats everyone as equal, whether it be economic, racial, gender, sexual identity, or any other disparity, but the worst possible way to go about pursuing this is by claiming (especially in this goddamn thread!) that any one voice is more important, especially when a major and valid complaint of some of those voices is that they're not being heard, or treated as less important than others. This isn't a zero sum game, and you can argue that economic disparity is bad and needs to be addressed, while still offering basic respect to people with a spectacular history of being poo poo on, but that's not what was widely experienced this past election cycle to present, as people of color are trying to make abundantly clear.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:52
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Looks like most of the candidates for Detroit's school superintendent are coming out against charter schools. A good sign, I think.
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Mar 30, 2017 23:54
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Dexo posted:*sigh* To be perfectly blunt it's just funny how people will be so quick to (rightfully) say "black people are not a monolithic entity!" when someone asks "how do black people feel about..." and yet for some reason the statement "the black people's candidate was Hillary Clinton and her defeat was a personal insult to black people" is fine. Thaddius the Large posted:This isn't a zero sum game, and you can argue that economic disparity is bad and needs to be addressed, while still offering basic respect to people with a spectacular history of being poo poo on, but that's not what was widely experienced this past election cycle to present, as people of color are trying to make abundantly clear. I agree w this (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2017 23:56
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Moridin920 posted:To be perfectly blunt it's just funny how people will be so quick to (rightfully) say "black people are not a monolithic entity!" when someone asks "how do black people feel about..." and yet for some reason the statement "the black people's candidate was Hillary Clinton and her defeat was a personal insult to black people" is fine. Why are you mentioning that to me. I didn't say poo poo about Hillary being Black people's candidate. I honestly don't give a flyyyyying gently caress about the election any more. It does no good to legislate it after the fact. Hillary's gone, she's out of presidential politics. Why are we still talking about her. Like her or not. And this is not just about you. The other side who is super loving pro Hillary is dumb too. My personal politics is to vote for whoever I think is the best candidate for the causes I believe in who have a reasonable chance at winning, and will vote for them. Happily voted Sanders in the Primary, and Happily voted Hillary in the general. They both lost. So guess what who ever comes next has to do better. All I stated was a fact that explains why black turnout was down a bunch in a couple of Key states (WI, FL, NC).And yeah even saying that it was going to drop some because Clinton had no chance of pulling out the AA voting numbers that Obama could. Dexo fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 00:08
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Neurolimal posted:The idea of that false quote was for it to sound like a careless goofus was saying it without respect or knowledge of black american plight. If you look back you'll see that I take care to refer to black americans as black americans. So I don't know your own ethnicity, but do you realise that the posters you've been arguing with for the last two pages are black people? You've come into the ghetto space set aside for black people on the forums, and are busy arguing to the black posters here about how the views expressed by a black political scientist must be bullshit because Bernielove. If you're a white dude, then that's a seriously ugly and whitesplainy look.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:11
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Lead out in cuffs posted:So I don't know your own ethnicity, but do you realise that the posters you've been arguing with for the last two pages are black people? There's also been a number of black american pundits arguing in favor of the leftist movement, because black americans are not a hivemind.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:11
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Dexo posted:Why are you mentioning that to me. I didn't say poo poo about Hillary being Black people's candidate. Because you entered a conversation about it? The other poster was the one that said the thing about HRC but yeah I kind of conflated you in there I suppose. Dexo posted:I honestly don't give a flyyyyying gently caress about the election any more. It does no good to legislate it after the fact. Hillary's gone, she's out of presidential politics. Why are we still talking about her. Like her or not. Fair enough All I'ma say is that if you don't examine why someone lost in detail how will you know what "do better" really means but yeah fair enough this prolly isn't the best place for it regardless. Wasn't trying to start up a big political debate I'll butt out now. e: oh just real quick Praseodymi posted:I hate to sound like #NotAllLeftists, but can we stop referring to Sanders and his supporters as 'the left'? He's a milquetoast SocDem and they only support him because they're not racist enough to vote Republican but too racist to agree with the Black Panthers. A good post Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 00:11
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The black people in and around my life are less concerned about why Democrats lost big but why racism won. We know why racism won, but watching the white left flail their arms tells me they still don't have a clue. That's why black folks aren't still legislating the election.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:19
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I'll take a different view and ask for a link to some evidence of this "Bernie Sanders shitlist" that includes John Lewis, not because I doubt its existence, but because I can't find reference to it on Google and I think I should really know about it. Also, I don't know who the next crop of candidates are going to be, and I really don't think we should be looking 4 years ahead right now. Donald Trump is currently the president, neither Hillary nor Bernie will ever be president, and Trump is a threat right loving now. Focus on the next 4 years. Not the past, not everything after Trump's first term. Maybe you think by some technicality we'll nullify the last election, but it's not going to happen. Damage has been done, but we've only just started. My ultimate view on this subject in this thread is that you see white people talking about elections when we're done with one and 4 years from the next because they're not scared of what's going to happen in the space between, because we have the privilege of mostly ignoring Trump's stupid poo poo if we feel like only paying attention to stuff that significantly impacts us and only us, directly. And that's complete horseshit. Bad poo poo is happening. The torpedo has hit, the ship is sinking, and you're secure in the availability of a life raft because you've been on the deck the whole time.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:24
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Neurolimal posted:There's also been a number of black american pundits arguing in favor of the leftist movement, because black americans are not a hivemind. JFC. My point was to try to get through to you that telling black people what to think about politics is lovely. The correct response to that is to apologise and STFU. Doubling down on racist actions when they're pointed out to you is just next-level racism. Neurolimal posted:The idea was to sound like a careless goofus without respect or knowledge of black american plight. You're doing a pretty good job of this, but maybe you should consider doing it somewhere that isn't the space for black Americans?
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Mar 31, 2017 00:24
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Thaddius the Large posted:Hey Neuroliminal, can I recommend you go read Dog Whistle Politics? I'm in the middle of it at the moment so it's on my mind, and it's a good primer to the Southern Strategy that help promulgate racism among the Republican Party for the last 60 years, and even goes into that while racism and economic anxiety are intrinsically linked factors in our current political divide, you do everyone a disservice by pretending they're the same loving thing. I would love a system that treats everyone as equal, whether it be economic, racial, gender, sexual identity, or any other disparity, but the worst possible way to go about pursuing this is by claiming (especially in this goddamn thread!) that any one voice is more important, especially when a major and valid complaint of some of those voices is that they're not being heard, or treated as less important than others. This isn't a zero sum game, and you can argue that economic disparity is bad and needs to be addressed, while still offering basic respect to people with a spectacular history of being poo poo on, but that's not what was widely experienced this past election cycle to present, as people of color are trying to make abundantly clear. Sure, I'l check it out. Contrary to what some may think I actually like this thread as a "this is how the older black generation is feeling" way. Lead out in cuffs posted:JFC. My point was to try to get through to you that telling black people what to think about politics is lovely. The correct response to that is to apologise and STFU. Doubling down on racist actions when they're pointed out to you is just next-level racism. They don't need to agree with me at all. I don't expect people to just suddenly change their minds on a sensitive topic instantly. I only hope that I've provided some food for thought, just as this thread has given me such. signalnoise posted:My ultimate view on this subject in this thread is that you see white people talking about elections when we're done with one and 4 years from the next because they're not scared of what's going to happen in the space between, because we have the privilege of mostly ignoring Trump's stupid poo poo if we feel like only paying attention to stuff that significantly impacts us and only us, directly. And that's complete horseshit. Bad poo poo is happening. The torpedo has hit, the ship is sinking, and you're secure in the availability of a life raft because you've been on the deck the whole time. I'm poor and gay. So long as Mike Pence is VP I'm not in for a hassle-free term. I absolutely recognize that Trump is a problem, and if you read C-spam I constantly talk about how much he and any democrat that yields to him sucks. It is not luxury that lets me reflect on the primaries and what we must do in the future. It is basic survival; when a rich democrat loses to Trump they can shrug and go woodswalking, but I and many others worse-off than me get to suffer. We aren't going to survive constant defeats while yacht dems ponder if they should accept popular policies. We need to accelerate that process before they get a chance to lose again. If it looks like I am ignoring Trump in this thread, it is because I dont disagree with whats said about Trump.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:35
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Morby posted:I am a Democrat because I choose to be one. The Democratic Party is literally the only party that has listened to us in the last 30 years. Thanks for this, I get it. I didn't mean to imply minorities don't know what's good for them. Bill Clinton cut social services like welfare and food stamps while in office, I felt that when my mom couldn't afford the amount of groceries she usually got and I had to go hungry more often. I don't want you minorities to bail because then it's just a party of white people. I know Dems have been on your side, I just wish they'd listen and be more on your side. I want our party to do more for minorities. And them playing footsie with white nationalism is really concerning me. Dexo posted:*sigh* This and stripping people's right to vote for criminal offenses are, I honestly feel, the biggest source of damage to our power. Not that gerrymandering isn't awful and scary but it's voter suppression and mass incarceration and the stripping of voting rights that really is devastating us. But we're more concerned about gerrymandering... because it effects white people more.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:49
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You will find that a lot of black people are less worried about how much money other people have but why we can't have the same opportunity to pursue that wealth. Not speaking for all black folks, just me and the ones around my life. How POC arrived in poverty and how white people arrived in poverty are completely different. It goes far beyond capitalism for POC. If this were just about economics then we would have pulled out of poverty as a race quickly during reconstruction and began building generational wealth. But every time we have tried to become financially stable, white people from both the left and the right have done everything they can to stop us. This continues to this day. Black people were literally the hardest working people in this country for centuries and have nothing to show for it and it ain't capitalisms fault.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:54
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Historically speaking many of the 'Union Liberals' were all to happy to abandon their Unions once those unions got enough PoC in them to be noticeable.Jenner posted:This and stripping people's right to vote for criminal offenses are, I honestly feel, the biggest source of damage to our power. Not that gerrymandering isn't awful and scary but it's voter suppression and mass incarceration and the stripping of voting rights that really is devastating us. It is rather embarrassing how little people consider the great disparity between not only sentencing but even finding oneself before a judge when it comes to smaller crimes, especially drug possession offenses. The complete imbalance in the ability to afford something other than an overburdened (or worse) public defender plays a lot into this as well. How many PoC are unable to vote because of Marijuana-related crimes? Based on what I recall I would imagine that almost half of all Black Men are ineligible to vote because of convictions.
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Mar 31, 2017 01:01
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Fluffdaddy posted:You will find that a lot of black people are less worried about how much money other people have but why we can't have the same opportunity to pursue that wealth. Not speaking for all black folks, just me and the ones around my life. I think this is the other thing -- I don't have good crosstabs of census data to hand, but the median net worth of white Americans is ten times that of black Americans, and the vast majority of black Americans are in the lowest 20% of the country in terms of wealth. When people talk about "white working class poverty" in the USA, they mean "no longer able to afford a second car or buy a house", not the actual penury that is the daily lived experience of most black Americans. Ignoring this and hammering on about poor little rich white people is it's own kind of racism, and I fully understand why a lot of black Americans are unimpressed by Berniebros. Taerkar posted:Historically speaking many of the 'Union Liberals' were all to happy to abandon their Unions once those unions got enough PoC in them to be noticeable. It's also informative, and depressing, to read about hate strikes.
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Mar 31, 2017 01:21
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Dexo posted:Funny that Black turnout dropped in states where they implemented the harshest laws targeting Voting rights. I think it is very telling that most (white) progressives have been busying themselves on nitpicking "fiscal leftism" talking points and wringing their hands over poor white people. The Democrats haven't had a majority of white people since the 1960s (basically since the Southern Strategy was implemented), and have seen a long downward trend since then. The future of the party is not white people. You'd think progressives who truly wanted to focus on the disenfranchised would turn their attention to the dramatic erosion of the voting rights of POC in just the past 5-10 years, and a long-term erosion from the combo of our racist legal system and removing voting rights from the incarcerated. The ANES has been slowly churning out the official numbers from the past year, and I am hoping there is a polisci team out there running the crosstabs of the effects of the VRA demolition on POC (especially Black) turnout. This was the first election since that VRA ruling. Why the gently caress is everyone talking about white people and their wallets, and not about THAT?! Fluffdaddy posted:But every time we have tried to become financially stable, white people from both the left and the right have done everything they can to stop us. This continues to this day. The most horrifying part about this point is that everything really means everything. Prior to the 1950s or so, every single so-called "race riot" on record was instigated by white people attacking communities of POC. And surprise surprise, these riots often happened to coincide with those POC communities becoming financially successful--or starting to become successful. It goes beyond the Tulsa riots and the bombing of the Black Wall Street. It had been happening for decades since Reconstruction ended, and every single time it ended with the POC driven out (and worse) and the white attackers taking over their land, storefronts, and wealth, or just destroying those altogether. poo poo, I can't imagine the financial impact of just the Red Summer alone. I'm White and grew up in primarily white communities and never heard about any of this until I stumbled on the Tulsa riots on Wikipedia in my early 20s or so. I think White people might take a very different view of the difficulty Black Americans faced in building generational wealth if we were taught that every attempt to do so from ~1870-1930 was met with white mobs literally burning their homes down. Neurolimal posted:Sure, I'l check it out. Contrary to what some may think I actually like this thread as a "this is how the older black generation is feeling" way. As a fellow White person--do you have any idea how loving condescending you sound? All your comments in this thread make you look like the stereotypical white liberal who swans into black spaces and decides they're going to educate all those poor souls about how politics really works. The tone and attitude behind your comments and your inability to listen to what the people in this thread are telling you is why POC think all us white liberals are a bunch of supercilious do-nothing fuckheads. Also, I'm poor and queer too, but I'm not going to don that like some suit of armor and pretend that my experience and threats to my life approach anything close to what, say, comes to the mind of one of my friends every time her husband drives off to work.
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Mar 31, 2017 02:47
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