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dwarf74 posted:"Pathfinder is actually good" I can only assume they have never, ever tried to play it with anyone outside of a carefully curated gaming group that would be fine in pretty much any system.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:27
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Halloween Jack posted:Of all the things I don't miss about 3e, "everything not expressly permitted is expressly forbidden" is way up there. To be clear, a character without Precise Shot can still shoot enemies engaged in melee with friendlies, they just take a -4 penalty for doing so. dwarf74 posted:"Pathfinder is actually good" This is the TRPG equivalent of the Overton Window moving so far to the right that people start wishing Mitt Romney was the SecState nominee.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:30
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Being better than 5e doesn't make a game good.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:31
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gradenko_2000 posted:To be clear, a character without Precise Shot can still shoot enemies engaged in melee with friendlies, they just take a -4 penalty for doing so.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:40
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I'd say it's just not the Earth shattering crime against the hobby that a lot of Trad Games posters make it out to be. I started RPGs with 3.5, I played the hell out of Pathfinder and I don't really want to ever play or run it again, but it's not elfgames cancer.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:40
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Liquid Communism posted:Pfft. I take it you never did the math on 3.5 Warlocks or PF's Witches, then. Holy loving poo poo you think 3.5 Warlocks are good
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Mar 31, 2017 14:46
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Piell posted:Holy loving poo poo you think 3.5 Warlocks are good No, I think they're terrible, but they have an edge case (low level 24hr duration flight plus infinite ray attacks) that can really let a player who wants to be a dick obsolete the party for a while.
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Mar 31, 2017 15:01
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Isn't PF/3.5 basically a race to see who can oneshot every encounter first?
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Mar 31, 2017 15:22
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Lightning Lord posted:Isn't PF/3.5 basically a race to see who can oneshot every encounter first? Once the players start to understand how the system "works" pretty much yes. This happens around level 6ish*, which is also when casters noticeably pull away from the other classes and the beatstick fighters start to fall behind on damage vs expected monster hp. *Depending on the group, player experience, and how much the GM puts their foot down this can start as early as 2nd level or can be put off until as late as 10th level if the GM really works at it. I've never seen/played a game past 12th level that wasn't spellcaster rocket tag or a cluster-gently caress of teleports/polymorphs/save-or-suck spells.
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Mar 31, 2017 15:30
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fr0id posted:Hell yeah. So you're not a fan of the Star Wars RPG? I've played a bit of it and can see where they streamlined a lot of stuff (talents and action cards all get condensed into class-based talent trees), but I miss some of the customization you could get out of WFRP3, and the wounds system is an overly convoluted one from the dark heresy line that only exists because they wanted a "fair" way to have people get their hands cut off. I'm not a fan of the Star Wars RPGs because they're too much like the 40K RPGs (which are themselves basically WFRP2 with more cruft and fewer careers) with bad custom dice bolted on, whereas WFRP3 managed to actually do something mechanically interesting. dwarf74 posted:"Pathfinder is not as bad as D&D 5e because D&D 5e is really bad" I've edited your statement for accuracy.
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Mar 31, 2017 15:35
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm not a fan of the Star Wars RPGs because they're too much like the 40K RPGs (which are themselves basically WFRP2 with more cruft and fewer careers) with bad custom dice bolted on, whereas WFRP3 managed to actually do something mechanically interesting. The Star Wars dice, and their narrative mechanic, are good actually.
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Mar 31, 2017 15:40
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I started off with FFG Star Wars, and after hearing people say that WHFRP was good I went and checked that out. Wow, the dice mechanic actually feels right in that game, whereas they were clearly only used in Star Wars out of laziness/another attempt to sell more specialty dice.
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Mar 31, 2017 15:43
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jivjov posted:The Star Wars dice, and their narrative mechanic, are good actually. They compete with Numenera for worst implementation of narrative mechanics.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:29
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jivjov posted:The Star Wars dice, and their narrative mechanic, are good actually. Whereas in FFGSW, you pretty much just have one big boring list and anything else is on the fly GM rules design. I found it kind of fatiguing to run.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:36
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Lightning Lord posted:This is like saying because the Transformers movies are huge hits that of course the IDW comics have been selling a million copies a month. If the movie is a big hit, we'll see lots of D&D merchandise move like crazy and it WILL boost the game's sales but the Red Box days are forever gone. I think Hasbro should just accept it's a loss leader and something to keep WotC happy and making MtG and just license it out but let Mearls fart around a bunch as long as he's kept away from actual design. My FLGS says that D&D is a white hot category now, and he attributes that to the repopularization due to Stranger Things on Netflix. He's buying deep restock as fast as possible and it's selling out within days. Dice, handbooks, mats, miniatures, they're all selling out right away.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:51
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dwarf74 posted:"Pathfinder is actually good" Good aligned, not good quality. Paizo seems to be genuinely better people than human sewage and the enablers who hire then.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:02
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Paizo has some good people working for them and some regressive twits that aren't going anywhere, it's a question of how well you feel one balances out the other.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:08
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Alien Rope Burn posted:By Hasbro's normal standards, D&D isn't remotely profitable enough as a brand to support. Slashing the costs involved with it as much as possible is likely the only reason Wizards has been able to keep it alive at all. At this point they likely can at least just justify it with stuff like the recent Infinity Engine rereleases and keep it on life support. Again though, I really don't think Hasbro looks at every sub-brand the same way. I mean, do you think they're cutting support for Wizard of the Coast's game Guillotine because of poor brand performance... or alternately, demanding a Guillotine expansion because it's selling better than expected? D&D obviously has more brand prominence, but I'd love to see some kind of actual support for the assertion that Hasbro is actively managing Wizard's products in any way at all.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:16
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canyoneer posted:My FLGS says that D&D is a white hot category now, and he attributes that to the repopularization due to Stranger Things on Netflix. This is by FLGS standards, which isn't good enough for Hasbro. Red Box did this in like, Toys R Us and Waldenbooks Alien Rope Burn posted:Paizo has some good people working for them and some regressive twits that aren't going anywhere, it's a question of how well you feel one balances out the other. I guess Starfinder is the true test? They said it's going to be a new system.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:10
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Lightning Lord posted:I guess Starfinder is the true test? They said it's going to be a new system. "evolved from the Pathfinder rules" "designed to integrate easily with the Pathfinder roleplaying game"
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Mar 31, 2017 19:12
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S.J. posted:"evolved from the Pathfinder rules" That could be comforting speak to sooth the Path grogs and they'll throw a conversion guide in the book or it could be them admitting it's going to be their version of d20 Traveller. We'll see I guess. Leperflesh posted:Again though, I really don't think Hasbro looks at every sub-brand the same way. I mean, do you think they're cutting support for Wizard of the Coast's game Guillotine because of poor brand performance... or alternately, demanding a Guillotine expansion because it's selling better than expected? I think they want D&D to make more money than it generally does, and from what I understand they do issue orders or declarations of some sort to the WotC execs but yes I agree that there's a bit of an undeserved "D&D is nothing but a failed nerd nostalgia brand!" tone to these kinds of discussions (driven largely by the likes of Cirno) It could be that they don't get why a brand that's as well known as D&D doesn't make more money in and of itself
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Mar 31, 2017 19:13
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I have no faith in them creating an actual new rules set. It's just going to be another d20 clone.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:18
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If they put more effort into the product than a find/replace on the fantasy words I will be shocked. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't hate Pathfinder.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:22
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8one6 posted:If they put more effort into the product than a find/replace on the fantasy words I will be shocked. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't hate Pathfinder.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:27
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Lightning Lord posted:I think they want D&D to make more money than it generally does, and from what I understand they do issue orders or declarations of some sort to the WotC execs but yes I agree that there's a bit of an undeserved "D&D is nothing but a failed nerd nostalgia brand!" tone to these kinds of discussions (driven largely by the likes of Cirno) Answer to that is both complicated and easy, but it boils down to tabletop RPGs are currently a red water market and both inside and outside groups have poisoned any attempts to expand that market's size. If Hasbro wanted to really flex their muscle and make D&D a truly profitable brand first they'd have to spend a lot of money on a new edition (to make it more mass market friendly) and on marketing to undo that. They'd have to get it back into the toy and boardgame sections of major retailers like Walmart. Hell, they'd probably have to directly seize the brand from Wizards and move it into its own area inside Hasbro proper, because it's clear that the Wizards team is more interested in Magic than anything else. Unless Hasbro has a senior VP who really wants to push the game though, that's never going to happen. It's too much of a capital outlay without any sign it would be successful. They'll stick to collecting licensing fees for the video games and see how the movie goes before they'd even consider a move like that.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:30
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MikeCrotch posted:Don't forget that at the same time they were telling that to Hasbro they were telling GW that Imperial Assault was totally not a miniatures game, it was a boardgame! Because the terms of the agreement with GW was that they couldn't make miniatures games... Wait, XWing was already out by that point. Isn't that kind of unavoidably a miniatures game?
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Mar 31, 2017 19:57
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Kwyndig posted:Answer to that is both complicated and easy, but it boils down to tabletop RPGs are currently a red water market and both inside and outside groups have poisoned any attempts to expand that market's size. Can I ask you what exactly you mean by that? I assumed that the reason the RPG market is so small is because a single gaming group can make do with one to three books per game they want to play, without counting expansions, and the high price for hardcover books and the time it takes to learn a system keeps the casual customer away. Have I misunderstood, or maybe there's more to it?
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Mar 31, 2017 20:37
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paradoxGentleman posted:Can I ask you what exactly you mean by that? I assumed that the reason the RPG market is so small is because a single gaming group can make do with one to three books per game they want to play, without counting expansions, and the high price for hardcover books and the time it takes to learn a system keeps the casual customer away. Have I misunderstood, or maybe there's more to it? I know a guy in the industry who complains that gamers are cheap and hardcovers should cost more than they do all the time
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Mar 31, 2017 21:04
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Lightning Lord posted:I know a guy in the industry who complains that gamers are cheap and hardcovers should cost more than they do all the time He's right on the first point at least, I knew a guy who boycotted a company for going to a Print On Demand structure because now that they had no bookstore presence he could no longer
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Mar 31, 2017 21:08
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dwarf74 posted:"Pathfinder is actually good" It's insane.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:13
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PJOmega posted:Wait, XWing was already out by that point. Isn't that kind of unavoidably a miniatures game? They weren't allowed to make miniatures for GW-IP games that could compete with GW's existing miniatures, they weren't disallowed from making any kind of miniature game at all. Hence why they made busts for the characters in Relic rather than miniatures like in Talisman. They also did not have the board game rights to the Star Wars IP, but that's a separate issue.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:26
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PJOmega posted:Wait, XWing was already out by that point. Isn't that kind of unavoidably a miniatures game? FFG lied real hard about it.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:29
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paradoxGentleman posted:Can I ask you what exactly you mean by that? I assumed that the reason the RPG market is so small is because a single gaming group can make do with one to three books per game they want to play, without counting expansions, and the high price for hardcover books and the time it takes to learn a system keeps the casual customer away. Have I misunderstood, or maybe there's more to it? That's part of the problem, but the other issue is that companies have difficulty growing the hobby. Very few attempts are made to recruit people or even advertise to what would be interested parties. In many areas the traditional game store culture is actively toxic to new players and no attempts are made to reach out to consumers outside of them. Of course, margins are razor thin, so there's no money for advertising. They charge very little for books, and so they pay their workers very little. This doesn't attract the best talent, both in demeanor and skill. This makes company culture even worse than it should be in a male dominated field. This makes the product itself cater to a more niche market that either tolerates or outright welcomes content that could be called problematic at best (see early pathfinder, see the 5e consultant debacle, see anything from certain publishers). The internet has made these problems both better and worse. Hopefully positive and inclusive depictions of the hobby in popular culture will attract the kind of market forces that will improve the hobby over the long run, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:31
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It's amazing that WotC seems to do fairly well on that front with Magic.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:40
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There's also the elephant in the room that it's incredibly, incredibly easy to pirate RPG books. Like, just to test my point I plugged in the name of some Pathfinder books and a handful of SA indie darlings and within the first google page I found links to direct downloads and torrents for both. I don't know how much this actually affects the bottom line but when profits are already so marginal I can't imagine it helps much, especially since afaik all of the profit from RPGs, barring maybe D&D via its licence, comes purely from selling books.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:49
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Siivola posted:It's amazing that WotC seems to do fairly well on that front with Magic. You can buy Magic cards in nearly any store that caters to children. Magic has organized tournament play with professional standards. Magic advertises in comic books and on websites popular with their target demographic. Magic has a sustainable business model based on selling ever more cards. In order for a tradgame to do the same you'd have to completely rework a game from the ground up to allow these things. Maybe a focus on the zine format over cards, although Gamma World did cards well. Edit: They really should bring back tournament modules. When you play them as intended they're great fun. Kwyndig fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 21:52
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It wasn't too long ago when regular people didn't play Magic at all, though. Far as I know, as a game it was super impenetrable and the smell was the least offensive thing about the playerbase. They've made very purposeful steps towards making it socially acceptable and mainstream. It's as much a question of effort as it is of resources, and I find it really hard to believe FFG or Onyx Path couldn't take at least some of those steps.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:04
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Siivola posted:It wasn't too long ago when regular people didn't play Magic at all, though. Far as I know, as a game it was super impenetrable and the smell was the least offensive thing about the playerbase. They've made very purposeful steps towards making it socially acceptable and mainstream. It's as much a question of effort as it is of resources, and I find it really hard to believe FFG or Onyx Path couldn't take at least some of those steps. This is incorrect. When Magic was first released, it was all anyone did at school.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:30
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Lightning Lord posted:That could be comforting speak to sooth the Path grogs and they'll throw a conversion guide in the book or it could be them admitting it's going to be their version of d20 Traveller. We'll see I guess. All I said was "Hasbro is more likely to mothball it then sell it off" you insane stalker.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:36
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Kwyndig posted:You can buy Magic cards in nearly any store that caters to children. Magic has organized tournament play with professional standards. Magic advertises in comic books and on websites popular with their target demographic. Magic has a sustainable business model based on selling ever more cards. Magic is in Walmarts and Targets, they know exactly who they're selling to, and they've basically slotted right into the niche that used to be baseball cards.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:46
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