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GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

SMAC did wide vs. tall well.

You always wanted to be expanding, but "expanding" could mean either really thick cities and making optimal use of space to create specialists on one end... or packing your cities right up against each other so that you were managing dozens in the same space another player would be managing three or for.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 17:01

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# ? May 27, 2024 12:42

oddium: Feb 21, 2006; end of the 4.5 tatami age

the problem with wide vs tall is that wide rules and tall is sad

# ? Mar 31, 2017 17:03

nessin: Feb 7, 2010

ulmont posted:

1. Steam already has my info so there is much less typing.
2. Since you're getting steam keys at the end of the day either way, I suspect Valve is getting their cut either way.

Not pressing, I admit.

I've got no beef with anyone buying off Steam versus the Paradox store, but please don't save your payment information on Steam. Or anywhere for that matter. Yes I get that it's super convenient but also potentially catastrophic. I mean it totally isn't like people have been screwed over by friends/family using their account to buy games with saved payment information or Steam hasn't had bugs which log you into other user accounts randomly.

Possible easy alternatives depending on options available:

1) If your bank(s) support a pre-paid card you can add money to at will, then get one of those cards and use it for Steam/other online retailers. Then dump some money onto it and refill as necessary or put in the amount you need each time via your bank (which there is no way to avoid being screwed if someone compromises your account anyways).
2) Use the Steam Wallet. A one time investment of 50 bucks if you know you'll eventually spend it on games can go along with with a few sales without having to re-fill the wallet with a new payment.

Sorry for the online payment PSA derail.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 17:12

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

GlyphGryph posted:

SMAC did wide vs. tall well.

You always wanted to be expanding, but "expanding" could mean either really thick cities and making optimal use of space to create specialists on one end... or packing your cities right up against each other so that you were managing dozens in the same space another player would be managing three or for.

ICS was the dominant strategy in SMAC, it did not handle this well at all. civ IV was the first civ game to have non-broken expansion mechanics

"wide v tall" in the sense that civ v understands it is just a bad idea, having extra cities actively make your empire worse sucks rear end. if you want not expanding to be a viable choice, the correct way to enable this is by making the tradeoff between spending resources on expansion and spending resources on internal investment competitive. although personally I think that while you want some variety in viable expansion strategies, it's not really necessary to make "build four cities then stop" viable

# ? Mar 31, 2017 17:14

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

Kitchner posted:

I mean I think paradox devs have said they earn more from their store if the amount is a couple of dollars per game you might as well save the time by buying through steam and just send them $2 in the post.

Can't I just tuck it into Wiz's waistband?

# ? Mar 31, 2017 17:25

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

GlyphGryph posted:

SMAC did wide vs. tall well.

You always wanted to be expanding, but "expanding" could mean either really thick cities and making optimal use of space to create specialists on one end... or packing your cities right up against each other so that you were managing dozens in the same space another player would be managing three or for.

Just LOL if you aren't building your bases exactly three squares apart and pop-booming into the stratosphere.

I really wish someone would go teach the SMAC AI to terraform well, and understand just how good Forests are. If that existed, I don't think I'd play another turn based game ever again.

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

ICS was the dominant strategy in SMAC, it did not handle this well at all. civ IV was the first civ game to have non-broken expansion mechanics

"wide v tall" in the sense that civ v understands it is just a bad idea, having extra cities actively make your empire worse sucks rear end. if you want not expanding to be a viable choice, the correct way to enable this is by making the tradeoff between spending resources on expansion and spending resources on internal investment competitive. although personally I think that while you want some variety in viable expansion strategies, it's not really necessary to make "build four cities then stop" viable

Did they nerf cities ever harder in the expansions? I know that at release, despite all the penalties for number of cities, you really were better off building cities on every square you could, because the regular tile yields were so bad.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:03

Ham Sandwiches: Jul 7, 2000

PittTheElder posted:

Just LOL if you aren't building your bases exactly three squares apart and pop-booming into the stratosphere.

Did they nerf cities ever harder in the expansions? I know that at release, despite all the penalties for number of cities, you really were better off building cities on every square you could, because the regular tile yields were so bad.

Are we talking about Civ 5? In Civ 5 with both expansions you are usually best off having somewhere around 4 or 5 cities, depending on how much warring you'll be doing. I find not having a reason to expand past a certain point very boring.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:06

Magil Zeal: Nov 24, 2008

Rakthar posted:

Are we talking about Civ 5? In Civ 5 with both expansions you are usually best off having somewhere around 4 or 5 cities, depending on how much warring you'll be doing. I find not having a reason to expand past a certain point very boring.

ICS was still the dominant strategy in Civ V up until Brave New World (well, it was still very strong in Gods and Kings, I don't know if it was quite as dominant as it was in vanilla).

Expansion models are apparently hard (I always thought IV did it well but nobody seems to draw from that model).

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:10

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

PittTheElder posted:

Did they nerf cities ever harder in the expansions? I know that at release, despite all the penalties for number of cities, you really were better off building cities on every square you could, because the regular tile yields were so bad.

you mean in civ V? yeah, that's fixed now, ICS is no longer good and in fact tall is probably too good (although I don't think I play enough to have a solid opinion on that)

my issue with the current state of the game isn't so much the balance, but that the fundamental mechanic they use to balance wide vs. tall is extremely unfun. new cities actively harm you in a bunch of ways rather than just being an investment that may or may not be worth choosing over other priorities. and rather than expanding slower or faster you're encourage to straight-up stop expanding forever at a certain point

Magil Zeal posted:

ICS was still the dominant strategy in Civ V up until Brave New World (well, it was still very strong in Gods and Kings, I don't know if it was quite as dominant as it was in vanilla).

Expansion models are apparently hard (I always thought IV did it well but nobody seems to draw from that model).

yeah civ IV's expansion model is awesome, it's not necessary for every civ game to copy it but the fact that civ V didn't even seem to learn from it is baffling

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:13

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Bloody Pom posted:

Civ BE is the reason why I can't imagine why anyone could have been excited for Civ VI. Firaxis has lost its soul.

BE was fun and so is VI

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:44

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

OwlFancier posted:

BE was fun and so is VI

see it's tricky to tell whether a civ game has become good just by asking people because of survivorship bias, so you have to rely on cues like "did this person think civ V was good at release" or "did this person unironically enjoy BE"

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:50

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I played V, BE, and VI and they're all quite fun games. I don't really see much about them that I particularly dislike.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:54

The Muffinlord: Mar 3, 2007; newbid stupie?

Ice cream sandwiches are the dominant strategy in every 4X. Eat them while playing to get a real boost over the AI.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:54

Sky Shadowing: Feb 13, 2012; At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)

I think to a lot of people games are about their own expectations. BE was held up as the next SMAC and a lot of people got disappointed when it was not.

Not necessarily a bad game, but bad feelings.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 18:56

CrazyLoon: Aug 10, 2015; "..."

Sky Shadowing posted:

I think to a lot of people games are about their own expectations. BE was held up as the next SMAC and a lot of people got disappointed when it was not.

Not necessarily a bad game, but bad feelings.

From the moment the first info about it came out, it was p clear to me that it would maybe borrow from SMAC's ideas/atmosphere to try and advertise itself to more peeps on nostalgia, but mechanically underneath it'd still be mostly the same Firaxis package as usual. It makes me appreciate just how hard it must've been for Paradox to make said departure with Stellaris in terms of mechanics, where, for example and unlike all their other games, literally every map is randomly generated via engine and every nation as well.

CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 31, 2017

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:04

Voyager I: Jun 29, 2012; This is how your posting feels.
🐥🐥🐥🐥🐥

OwlFancier posted:

BE was fun and so is VI

Oswald Owenstein parachute spotted.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:05

Huskalator: Mar 17, 2009; Proud ~~fascist~~
anti-anti-fascist

I don't know, I thought BE was a pretty bad game.

Edit: It has nothing to do with expectations it's just a bad and boring game with a terrible AI.

Huskalator fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Mar 31, 2017

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:09

The Muffinlord: Mar 3, 2007; newbid stupie?

What the gently caress is ICS I guess I should have asked

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:10

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

The Muffinlord posted:

What the gently caress is ICS I guess I should have asked

Infinite City Sprawl. building settlers as fast as possible to lay down huge numbers of tiny cities (often super-cramped together)

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:12

LogisticEarth: Mar 28, 2004; Someone once told me, "Time is a flat circle".

The Muffinlord posted:

What the gently caress is ICS I guess I should have asked

Infinite City Spam. Basically, tightly (or tighter) packed cities, never stop expanding.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:15

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

Infinite City Sprawl. building settlers as fast as possible to lay down huge numbers of tiny cities (often super-cramped together)

LogisticEarth posted:

Infinite City Spam. Basically, tightly (or tighter) packed cities, never stop expanding.

Infinite City Something, anyway.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:18

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Civ VI is pretty good in my opinion. Way fuckin better than V or BE at launch, and better than BE ever got.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:52

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

I'll just say this about the quality of the recent Civ games.

Civ 5 was the 17th most played game on Steam today.

Civ 6 was the 23rd.

Beyond Earth isn't even in the top hundred.

(why the gently caress are people still playing Empire Total War what the gently caress)

# ? Mar 31, 2017 19:57

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

Do they not know that Civ4 exists or?

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:07

Fintilgin: Sep 29, 2004; Fintilgin sweeps!

Mister Adequate posted:

Civ VI is pretty good in my opinion. Way fuckin better than V or BE at launch, and better than BE ever got.

Better than V at launch is a pretty low bar. :lol:

EDIT: I don't hate VI or anything... I just... meh. Put 21 hours in and don't have any great desire to boot it up again without some sort of major expansion. Makes me a little sad, because I've literally been playing the series since Civ 1 in the 90s... maybe I'm just burned out on the formula.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:10

The Muffinlord: Mar 3, 2007; newbid stupie?

Nuclearmonkee posted:

Do they not know that Civ4 exists or?

It's a shame Stellaris can't get Leonard Nimoy to do voiceover now.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:24

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

The Muffinlord posted:

It's a shame Stellaris can't get Leonard Nimoy to do voiceover now.

I'm sure there's somebody out there that could do a passable imitation.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:27

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

ulmont posted:

Is there no way to preorder through Steam?

Found the official no:

quote:

Pre-order in our webshop (pre-order only available through https://www.paradoxplaza.com not from other retailers): https://www.paradoxplaza.com/stellaris-utopia

Kitchner posted:

I mean I think paradox devs have said they earn more from their store if the amount is a couple of dollars per game you might as well save the time by buying through steam and just send them $2 in the post.

It looks like it's going to be a wash - it's $40 to order Stellaris: Utopia and EU4: Mandate of Heaven together through Steam, but only $35 through the Paradox web store, so those likely cancel out.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:36

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Was super hyped about this DLC but suddenly I'm "eh, I'll buy utopia when it's on sale and the next DLC is out maybe, if they make war better"
As much as the improvements in Utopia are a massive improvement, it's war that keeps me just quitting the game in frustration or abandoning games because :effort:

to micro my fleets and manage my troop ships.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:39

Cheen: Apr 17, 2005

Baronjutter posted:

Was super hyped about this DLC but suddenly I'm "eh, I'll buy utopia when it's on sale and the next DLC is out maybe, if they make war better"
As much as the improvements in Utopia are a massive improvement, it's war that keeps me just quitting the game in frustration or abandoning games because to micro my fleets and manage my troop ships.

but... you spend so much time posting in here!!!!

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:43

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Cheen posted:

but... you spend so much time posting in here!!!!

I feel like Baronjutter's relationship with Stellaris could best be described as 'Tsundere'.

Wiz fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 31, 2017

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:56

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Fintilgin posted:

Better than V at launch is a pretty low bar.

EDIT: I don't hate VI or anything... I just... meh. Put 21 hours in and don't have any great desire to boot it up again without some sort of major expansion. Makes me a little sad, because I've literally been playing the series since Civ 1 in the 90s... maybe I'm just burned out on the formula.

I'm kind of similar, but what I'm really waiting for is a genuine boost to the AI. Even on higher levels it was such a pushover that I never got the sense that I might not win, which is what strategy games need to stay interesting to me.

Loved the new way of laying out cities. Just wish you had to pay attention to it to win.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 20:57

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

Wiz posted:

I feel like Barronjutter's relationship with Stellaris could best be described as 'Tsundere'.

Don't you mean "militant isolationist?"

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:01

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Wiz posted:

I feel like Barronjutter's relationship with Stellaris could best be described as 'Tsundere'.

I had to look it up but that's sort of adorably accurate. I'll preorder just for you, Wizchan. I mean you've read or at least skimmed some of my "suggestion" posts so I figure you've more than earned it.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:03

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

The Muffinlord posted:

It's a shame Stellaris can't get Leonard Nimoy to do voiceover now.

I'd say they should get the people who zombified peter cushing to do that but now I just want zombie peter cushing to do all the voiceovers

e: at the very least he should do the megastructure ones

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:10

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Baronjutter posted:

I had to look it up but that's sort of adorably accurate. I'll preorder just for you, Wizchan. I mean you've read or at least skimmed some of my "suggestion" posts so I figure you've more than earned it ...but not because I like your game or anything! Baka!!

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:13

Huskalator: Mar 17, 2009; Proud ~~fascist~~
anti-anti-fascist

The Muffinlord posted:

It's a shame Stellaris can't get Leonard Nimoy to do voiceover now.

I'm pretty sure I just heard a really convincing Leonard Nimoy on Howard Stern the other day so I think it can be done.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:31

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I started watching Fringe for the first time at the same time that I was playing Civ4. Miss that Nimoy

Beep. Beep. Beep.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 31, 2017

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:43

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Fintilgin posted:

Better than V at launch is a pretty low bar.

EDIT: I don't hate VI or anything... I just... meh. Put 21 hours in and don't have any great desire to boot it up again without some sort of major expansion. Makes me a little sad, because I've literally been playing the series since Civ 1 in the 90s... maybe I'm just burned out on the formula.

I mean that first point is fair :lol:

Still, I've put a few dozen hours into VI since I got it for Christmas though. It didn't grab me like IV, sure, but I can't say I dislike the game or anything. I like almost everything VI does, I just wish it did more of it all.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:52

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# ? May 27, 2024 12:42

The Muffinlord: Mar 3, 2007; newbid stupie?

Nuclearmonkee posted:

I'm sure there's somebody out there that could do a passable imitation.

Only if they got alllllll the pig iron.

# ? Mar 31, 2017 21:56

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