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I hate fax machines, the worst parts of both phones and printers.
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Apr 1, 2017 05:01
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The Fool posted:I hate fax machines, the worst parts of both phones and printers. I suggest you use it over VoIP for the best quality experience.
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Apr 1, 2017 05:07
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Apr 1, 2017 12:21
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The Fool posted:I hate fax machines, the worst parts of both phones and printers. Virigoth posted:I suggest you use it over VoIP for the best quality experience. In theory T.38 should have made everything perfect, and faxing over VoIP with it should be more reliable than a traditional landline. In practice a lot of the horrible organizations that require people fax things to them have ancient pile of poo poo fax hardware that doesn't want to negotiate modern protocols properly and tries to fail back to old school fax protocols that T.38 doesn't work with. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone invented a "virus" of sorts that could destroy fax machines I'd gladly help spread it to rid the world of these horrible things once and for all. There has not been a technically valid reason to use one for well over a decade, only lovely people who refuse to learn how to use email and lovely industries where said lovely people make the decisions.
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Apr 1, 2017 14:39
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I thought some industries(like banking) were required to use them for regulatory reasons?
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Apr 1, 2017 14:44
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RFC2324 posted:I thought some industries(like banking) were required to use them for regulatory reasons? When have banks ever followed regulatory laws that closely? Psshhhh
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Apr 1, 2017 15:25
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Also aren't there 100% online mortgage companies? Has anyone ever used one? I'm sure they don't make you fax but I wonder if you can get away with only a digital signature. I know I got a $30k loan by doing nothing more than typing my full name and checking a box and hitting submit. I think the fax requirements are something lovely lawyers just assume without digging too deeply. I like the idea of stuxnet for fax machines.
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Apr 1, 2017 15:35
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The Nards Pan posted:Also aren't there 100% online mortgage companies? Has anyone ever used one? I'm sure they don't make you fax but I wonder if you can get away with only a digital signature. I think we need someone who actually works in one of these industries(banking is just the one I could think of off the top of my head) to speak up. A quick google found this, but I think it might be less than reliable: https://www.efax.com.au/blog/5-businesses-that-rely-on-fax E: Found this too, which seems relevant: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2083980/why-the-fax-still-lives-and-how-to-kill-it.html
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Apr 1, 2017 15:51
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RFC2324 posted:I thought some industries(like banking) were required to use them for regulatory reasons? I can assure you, the only reason bankers still fax is because they are stuck in the 80's. There is no regulatory requirement to fax over secure email or telephone call.
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Apr 1, 2017 16:48
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I can't speak for banking, but from attorneys point of view the court is still putting more weight on documents sent by fax then by email. There are also a lot of services that will accept credit card orders by fax but not by email due to "security."
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Apr 1, 2017 16:48
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We use xmedius for faxing. Works fantastically. Fax direct from outlook.
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Apr 1, 2017 16:59
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adorai posted:I can assure you, the only reason bankers still fax is because they are stuck in the 80's. There is no regulatory requirement to fax over secure email or telephone call. This is correct, fiancee's mom works for a banking corp office and has said the same thing, the only reason they still fax and print out so much stuff is because their co-workers are too lazy to learn a new process.
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Apr 1, 2017 17:15
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MF_James posted:This is correct, fiancee's mom works for a banking corp office and has said the same thing, the only reason they still fax and print out so much stuff is because their co-workers are too lazy to learn a new process. Are they allowed to take PPI using email? Are they allowed to take PPI using fax?
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Apr 1, 2017 17:33
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Internet Explorer posted:Are they allowed to take PPI using email? Are they allowed to take PPI using fax? dunno what PPI is. Anything that needs signed needs to be paper form* but that gets scanned in then it's good, but people in her office print poo poo out CONSTANTLY despite there being no need to. *they have e-signature but not everyone is comfortable doing that kind of stuff yet.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:07
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Even if there were regulations requiring the use of faxes that would still fall under "lovely people making lovely decisions" rather than legitimate technical reasons.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:10
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Isn't the legal stuff to do with if a fax is timestamped at a certain time, and call records from the relevant parties show that a call was made at this time then it can be proven in a way that emails can't?
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Apr 1, 2017 18:11
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Thanks Ants posted:Isn't the legal stuff to do with if a fax is timestamped at a certain time, and call records from the relevant parties show that a call was made at this time then it can be proven in a way that emails can't? Also, according to that PCWorld article linked above Someone confused about email posted:Your computer doesn’t have to be on to send or receive a fax; faxes can arrive at 3 A.M. (and frequently do) and you’ll have them in the morning.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:19
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Internet Explorer posted:Are they allowed to take PPI using email? Are they allowed to take PPI using fax? Yes to both, but discouraged for both. There is no regulatory issue.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:23
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RFC2324 posted:I think we need someone who actually works in one of these industries(banking is just the one I could think of off the top of my head) to speak up. A quick google found this, but I think it might be less than reliable: https://www.efax.com.au/blog/5-businesses-that-rely-on-fax I work for a giant online-only mortgage company, we get people faxing us stuff constantly. We just have an app set up to turn them to pdf and email to the recipient, because who the hell wants paper.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:30
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Thanks Ants posted:Isn't the legal stuff to do with if a fax is timestamped at a certain time, and call records from the relevant parties show that a call was made at this time then it can be proven in a way that emails can't? If I can get physical access to the telephone lines at either end I can intercept that fax and change it in any way I wanted to before delivering it on to the destination. With how modern machines buffer the document during send and receive it'd be hard for anyone to notice a bit of delay even if they were on the phone with the sender at that very moment. Or I could just record the faxes and be for all intents and purposes entirely undetectable. As far as gaining access to those lines, I present to you the universal telephone room key:  Have one of these strapped to your belt and act like you're meant to be there, you can get in to 90% of the telecom rooms in the world. Add a telco shirt purchased off ebay and that number goes up to 95%. I am a phone tech and I am meant to be there most of the time, but in over a decade I've been asked to prove who I was and why I was there exactly four times, and only one of those times did they actually validate that information in any meaningful way. I've ended up in the wrong phone room in large buildings more times than I can count, including buildings full of financial/legal firms. wolrah fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 18:37
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xsf421 posted:I work for a giant online-only mortgage company, we get people faxing us stuff constantly. We just have an app set up to turn them to pdf and email to the recipient, because who the hell wants paper. Do you accept e-signatures?
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Apr 1, 2017 18:49
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wolrah posted:It can be proven that a call occurred, but assuming that means anything about any documents that may have come out of the fax machine at that time other than the length of the call placing an upper bound on the amount of data that fax contained would be a bad idea. Yes, this is all technically true. Now explain this to the courts.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:58
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The Nards Pan posted:Do you accept e-signatures? We do. You can get a mortgage without physically signing a piece of paper or meeting someone until your closing.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:08
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I just signed a bunch of insurance papers with a signature I setup in Acrobat Reader.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:13
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wolrah posted:It can be proven that a call occurred, but assuming that means anything about any documents that may have come out of the fax machine at that time other than the length of the call placing an upper bound on the amount of data that fax contained would be a bad idea.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:53
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Virigoth posted:I suggest you use it over VoIP for the best quality experience. My comment was born out of frustrations experienced while porting a half dozen analog fax lines to a new CUCM install.
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Apr 1, 2017 20:16
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Have none of you ever worked in the healthcare industry? Regular email is a no go and while I'd generally prefer secure email solutions most of them aren't necessarily all that user friendly and can be a pain for end users compared to just picking up a sheet of paper or, more likely nowadays, opening a PDF they've been emailed. The latter definitely saves on paper and is easy for end-users but still leaves IT dealing with an electronic fax system and providers using lovely fax machines from the 80s. Even if faxing isn't 100% secure you'd have a hard time arguing that regular email as it exists today isn't a lot worse.
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Apr 1, 2017 20:24
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Regular email doesn't dump everything it receives into a tray that is accessible to everyone in the room which automatically makes it more secure than like 99% of fax machines in use planet-wide. Edit: also the cleaning lady can't waltz up and zero effort steal your email just because it arrived after everyone left for the day. Sheep fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 21:15
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anthonypants posted:Those companies are being careless, but I'm a big expensive lawyer/CEO/politician and that would never happen in *my* building. lol
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Apr 1, 2017 21:52
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Elem7 posted:Have none of you ever worked in the healthcare industry? Regular email as it exists today is encrypted on all transport paths. Just because you use email over unsecure connections doesnt make it worse than faxing. Hell, I just did a project to move our hardware fax server to a vm, we barely get a fax per month, yet they spent a fair bit of cash on licenses for sip, the fax software...
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Apr 1, 2017 22:01
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Lmao did I actually read a post in the IT thread saying that fax is a lot better than email?
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Apr 1, 2017 22:05
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No one said faxing is better, just that various industry's require it vs emails for protecting PII and PHI. I don't know how it is in the banking industry but I'd never expect to get through a HIPAA or CMS audit unscathed passing PHI over email with external recipients unless purposeful measures were taken and documented to ensure TLS encryption between domains. Faxing sucks, so do printers, but if you're going to complain about security issues like the cleaning lady picking up people's print's I'm still going to point how that's a solved problem with PIN and badge-swipe enabled secure printing. SEKCobra posted:Regular email as it exists today is encrypted on all transport paths. I don't believe this to be remotely true but if you have some reference saying otherwise I'd read it.
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Apr 1, 2017 22:22
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Elem7 posted:No one said faxing is better Uh, you said regular email is a lot worse.
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Apr 1, 2017 23:24
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I'll be happy if I never have to deal with another HIPAA environment again. gently caress that stuff. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not important to protect PHI, but it's so easy to fulfill those requirements with next to no security. For example: "DBANing and then drilling holes through the drives isn't secure enough. Let's stick them in a pelican case, secured with a $3 cable lock until the recycling company comes by in a month."
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Apr 1, 2017 23:48
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Elem7 posted:I don't believe this to be remotely true but if you have some reference saying otherwise I'd read it. edit: there are still issues with email even with TLS, but it can't be intercepted in transit
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Apr 1, 2017 23:50
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Elem7 posted:No one said faxing is better Elem7 posted:Even if faxing isn't 100% secure you'd have a hard time arguing that regular email as it exists today isn't a lot worse. quote:just that various industry's require it vs emails for protecting PII and PHI. I don't know how it is in the banking industry but I'd never expect to get through a HIPAA or CMS audit unscathed passing PHI over email with external recipients unless purposeful measures were taken and documented to ensure TLS encryption between domains. quote:Faxing sucks, so do printers, but if you're going to complain about security issues like the cleaning lady picking up people's print's I'm still going to point how that's a solved problem with PIN and badge-swipe enabled secure printing. quote:I don't believe this to be remotely true but if you have some reference saying otherwise I'd read it. As far as user experience goes, here's the process most of my users follow when sending a fax: 1. Put document in MFP 2. Go to address book 3. Push button corresponding to destination and here's the process they follow when scanning a document to email: 1. Put document in MFP 2. Go to address book 3. Push button corresponding to destination I'll give you that when they need to send to an unusual destination a 10 digit number is easier to enter than the majority of email addresses, but that's a really minor difference.
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Apr 1, 2017 23:54
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There is actually a standard to send and receive electronic health records over SMTP. It's called Direct and it provides automatic signing, payload encryption, and round trip verification. It's becoming more and more common.
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Apr 2, 2017 00:12
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wolrah posted:If email is worse, then faxing must be better, unless we've invented some new third direction for comparisons... CLAM DOWN posted:Uh, you said regular email is a lot worse. Yah, I guess I did after rereading my post, got me there I did say that in this specific context, but in fairness better than bad doesn't equal good and I'd be as happy as anyone if faxing just ceased to exist. adorai posted:Set your mail gateway to require TLS, problem solved. If a domain is not encrypting with TLS when available, gently caress it, they are incompetent enough that you don't want your employees emailing them anyway. Yah if you're fortunate enough that you can just unilaterally make a decision like that and dictate to your employer that anyone who's security isn't up to snuff isn't worth your time as IT to account for. That especially isn't an option for government health organizations that have to accommodate everyone even rural providers for whom internet isn't a guarantee let alone competent IT staff.
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Apr 2, 2017 00:18
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I'll be happy if I never have to deal with another HIPAA environment again. gently caress that stuff. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not important to protect PHI, but it's so easy to fulfill those requirements with next to no security. It's more that some manager gets a piece of paper saying that the drives were properly destroyed when they pay someone to destroy them. If something goes wrong, they can sue them. Suppose you properly destroy the drives, and then someone else fucks up, when it's finger pointing time, it doesn't matter that you threw the drives into a volcano, you don't have a piece of paper saying you did it right.
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Apr 2, 2017 00:57
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My former employer is going to have that as they shut down, they have announced liquidation to start next week. Every pc in the company will need to have its hard drive scrapped for pci-dss compliance once they start selling off assets after liquidation, have fun with that!
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Apr 2, 2017 02:13
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