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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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Fulchrum posted:Taking all bets on whether Condiv or Crowsbeak will be the first to use the m word to describe President Obama. seems you'd be the one to do that. you're the one trying to pretend ellison is antisemitic without a shred of evidence. that's racism, full stop you probably argued the same thing about obama back in '08, when hillary was saying she was the candidate of white america  edit: actually, i'm wrong. you do have evidence keith ellison is anti-semitic. it just comes from an islamophobic trump supporter Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 23:12
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Pedro De Heredia posted:No one thinks it's a lie, you gross idiot. They (correctly) think it's meaningless. He might as well have said there's nothing racist about stressing Obama's middle name. It is his name after all. That's the level of racist poo poo he is defending
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Apr 3, 2017 23:18
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Condiv posted:seems you'd be the one to do that. you're the one trying to pretend ellison is antisemitic without a shred of evidence. that's racism, full stop So association with a recognized anti-Semitic group doesn't meet a shred of evidence according to you?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:23
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Fulchrum posted:So association with a recognized anti-Semitic group doesn't meet a shred of evidence according to you? Robert Byrd was in the Klan for a time, guess he was an evil racist till his dying day even though he left it.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:25
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KomradeX posted:He might as well have said there's nothing racist about stressing Obama's middle name. It is his name after all. So all people with the middle name Hussein chose it to express anti-Semitic views? Or is joining Nation of Islam is something all Muslims do and don't have a choice in? What level of delusional are you operating under?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:28
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Let me say as a Jew who has gotten in slapfights in this forum for being insufficiently Tough On Israel, Ellison's association with the Nation of Islam does not bother me in the slightest. He has explained his reasons for it fully, and he came out the other end a grown and wiser person. Dude's not an anti-Semite.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:30
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Fulchrum posted:So you're saying you think that Islam is inherently anti-Semitic? Cause that's the only way your comparison makes any sense. The only way you could interpret my statement as that is if you were intentionally trying to be disingenuous, which you are. You are trying to defend the Democrats by saying the bad and negative things said about Ellison were isolated incidents, that the people who did it were taken care of, etc. At the same time, you also want to point out that the things said about Ellison are true. But that is the essence of a good smear. It is based in fact. What makes it a smear is the implicit judgment of what those facts mean. Hence the comparison to Ellison being a muslim. It's a fact that he is a muslim. It's not a lie to point out that he is a muslim. It is the implication of muslim = negative that is the smear. Ellison's ties to Farrakhan are a smear. They are a smear because Barack Obama and his circle, who were the ones pushing for Perez to run and who were trying to prevent Ellison from being DNC head, don't actually believe that Ellison is anti-semitic. They don't actually believe that he has ties to Farrakhan. This is not the actual reason why any of these people were against Ellison. They are simply putting those ties out there and bringing these things up as a "concern" because they wanted Ellison to have a more negative image without making a political case.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:31
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KomradeX posted:Robert Byrd was in the Klan for a time, guess he was an evil racist till his dying day even though he left it. It's about as substantive a story as Bernie Sanders writing about group sex in college or whatever. It's the sort of thing you bring up when you want to slander someone, and ignore when you don't.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:31
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KomradeX posted:Robert Byrd was in the Klan for a time, guess he was an evil racist till his dying day even though he left it. That is the attitude Bernie Bros took up and sprinted with when claiming this was useful to them so they could attack Hillary. Also, Byrd was celebrated by the NAACP. When did the JCPA celebrate Ellison?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:35
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Fulchrum posted:So association with a recognized anti-Semitic group doesn't meet a shred of evidence according to you? By this logic, condemnation of Hillary Clinton for working on the Goldwater campaign is also free game. Which it shouldn't be, because both slams are ridiculous.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:36
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loquacius posted:Let me say as a Jew who has gotten in slapfights in this forum for being insufficiently Tough On Israel, Ellison's association with the Nation of Islam does not bother me in the slightest. He has explained his reasons for it fully, and he came out the other end a grown and wiser person. Dude's not an anti-Semite. And you are free to hold that opinion. Other Jewish people can and do disagree. The issue is that people on this forum think that disagreeing on this is the worst form of racism by anyone ever.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:37
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Fulchrum posted:And you are free to hold that opinion. Other Jewish people can and do disagree. have you asked them
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Apr 3, 2017 23:38
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Fulchrum posted:Also, Byrd was celebrated by the NAACP. When did the JCPA celebrate Ellison? This article in the JCPA website from 2011 calls Keith Ellison a "J Street favorite", in the context of his appearance at the JCPA plenum. It says people clapped. In the article I posted earlier about recruiting someone to run against Ellison, the head of the Anti-Defamation League calls Ellison an important ally in the fight against anti-semitism. Again: everyone knows Keith Ellison isn't actually an anti-semite of any kind. They want to point to the fact that he is a muslim and had some ties with NoI to suggest that maybe he secretly is, except they don't actually believe that. It's the typical way of smearing: "listen, I don't think this is true, but some will". Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 23:39
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Pedro De Heredia posted:This article in the JCPA website from 2011 calls Keith Ellison a "J Street favorite", in the context of his appearance at the JCPA plenum. 
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Apr 3, 2017 23:41
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Fulchrum posted:That is the attitude Bernie Bros took up and sprinted with when claiming this was useful to them so they could attack Hillary. So even though his own Jewish constituents rebuked the accusation he is anti-Semitic he is to forever be suspect because he didn't get the official seal of not racist from a specific group. And you must seriously be intentionally misreading what is said because you are the Republican shouting Hussein and claiming it's not racist. That is literally the level of poo poo you are doing. So your gone with the fact that a Klan member was part of democratic party leadership for decades and hrs above reproach. Guess it really is centrists can't be racists. KomradeX fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 23:41
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loquacius posted:have you asked them This entire thing was collective bitching about Jewish-Americans who did think that about Ellison, so I don't think I have to.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:45
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Fulchrum posted:Taking all bets on whether Condiv or Crowsbeak will be the first to use the m word to describe President Obama. Marxist?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:46
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Fulchrum posted:Also, are you people seriously gonna keep pretending that the connections Ellison had to the Nation of Islam, things he himself has acknowledged, were all a big neoliberal lie? I love it when the masks slip.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:47
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Ellison's ties to Farrakhan are a smear. They are a smear because Barack Obama and his circle, who were the ones pushing for Perez to run and who were trying to prevent Ellison from being DNC head, don't actually believe that Ellison is anti-semitic. They don't actually believe that he has ties to Farrakhan. This is not the actual reason why any of these people were against Ellison. They are simply putting those ties out there and bringing these things up as a "concern" because they wanted Ellison to have a more negative image without making a political case.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:50
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Milquetoast? Crowsbeak posted:Marxist?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:50
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That we have one side making GBS threads on the minority status of Perez (who has also done a ton of civil rights work) because he's part of the wrong team, while the other side reiterates obviously unfair smears against Ellison because he's part of the wrong team, isn't really convincing me that we're seeing good faith arguments about the value of minority representation
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Apr 3, 2017 23:50
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Fervent campaigner against racist leftists and their dog whistles: I'm not saying this black man hates jews, I'm just asking questions and raising valid concerns.
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Apr 3, 2017 23:51
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Kilroy posted:geez you two are terrible at this Maoist?
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Apr 3, 2017 23:52
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noted nazi keith ellison... im glad that man isnt my dnc chairman
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Apr 3, 2017 23:55
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That we have one side making GBS threads on the minority status of Perez (who has also done a ton of civil rights work) because he's part of the wrong team, while the other side reiterates obviously unfair smears against Ellison because he's part of the wrong team, isn't really convincing me that we're seeing good faith arguments about the value of minority representation people shat on bernie's minority status all the time during the election too. we had an entire contingent of the democratic party telling us we were racist cause we supported a jewish man for president all i've done is point out that a white latino is an easier choice for the dems than a black muslim. an assertion that seems to be rooted in reality considering the racist smears that came out and are still coming out against ellison Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 23:56
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Fulchrum posted:This entire thing was collective bitching about Jewish-Americans who did think that about Ellison, so I don't think I have to. No, it wasn't, it was bitching about DNC officials "raising concerns" Pedro De Heredia posted:This article in the JCPA website from 2011 calls Keith Ellison a "J Street favorite", in the context of his appearance at the JCPA plenum. J Street owns btw and I'm on their mailing list
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Apr 4, 2017 00:01
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Pedro De Heredia posted:This article in the JCPA website from 2011 calls Keith Ellison a "J Street favorite", in the context of his appearance at the JCPA plenum. these people will also make sure to let everyone know this "danger", and will repeat it constantly. but they don't believe it, nor are they trying to spread disinfomation. they're just.... concerned
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Apr 4, 2017 00:03
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loquacius posted:No, it wasn't, it was bitching about DNC officials "raising concerns" DNC officials didn't raise concerns. The two names brought up were Haim Saban and Alan Dershowitz. Neither are on the DNC, both are Jewish.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:10
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Condiv posted:these people will also make sure to let everyone know this "danger", and will repeat it constantly. but they don't believe it, nor are they trying to spread disinfomation. they're just.... concerned I remember hearing a lot of this kind of "concern" directed towards Hillary during both the primary and the campaign. It's bullshit whoever does it, and it's just an excuse to leverage the nonsense being spread by RWM to attack someone one disagrees with. But given the amount of crazy hyperbole being thrown around it seems like trying to correct this sort of thing whenever it comes up is a losing battle.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:16
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Fulchrum posted:DNC officials didn't raise concerns. pft quote:The two names brought up were Haim Saban and Alan Dershowitz. Neither are on the DNC, both are Jewish. Pardon me if I don't accept Alan Dershowitz's judgment on this issue as more valid than my own
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Apr 4, 2017 00:19
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loquacius posted:pft Anyone has a better opinion on an issue than a pedophile like Derschositz.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:20
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Fulchrum posted:So now we've got Barack Obama personally instructing Haim Saban, who was powerless to resist the command, to begin talking about their problems with Ellisons past, despite Saban not really believing this, which we know because....your delusion rests entirely on it? 1. I am not talking about Haim Saban. 2. What do you possibly think you're going to achieve by calling things that are well-documented and perfectly logical "delusions". People close to Barack Obama were the ones who recruited Tom Perez to run against Keith Ellison. I know this because they told the press that's what they were doing. The New York Times posted:President Obama's loyalists, uneasy with the progressive Mr. Ellison, have begun casting about for an alternative, according to sources close to the President. We know why: The New York Times posted:Some Democrats, in Mr. Obama's orbit and beyond, say that elevating Mr. Ellison would amount to handing the party to Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont It takes the article a while to get to any kind of political reason for Obama's circle to be against Ellison, and eventually they get to this: The New York Times posted:Mr. Ellison's past criticism of Obama and praise for Louis Farrakhan, the Nation of Islam leader, worry some Democrats looking for a figure to lead the opposition to Trump. Let's point a few obvious things. One, that the writer of this article did not spontaneously decide to bring up Farrakhan due to independent research. The sources told them they were 'concerned'. Two, that three separate issues are being put into one big basket: That Ellison is a Muslim, that Ellison defended Farrakhan two decades ago, and that Ellison is 'to the left' on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These are, in fact, three different issues. The first two are being used to delegitimize the third, which is apparently the important one (or at least it appears to be to the person quoted, who specifically says Ellison is not an anti-semite). This is particularly gross when it comes to the first, since there is nothing wrong with being a muslim whatsoever. Three, that this article predates Saban and Dershowitz's typical idiocy. Fourth, that when it comes to the Farrakhan stuff, they don't say why they think it's bad, or even why this is so important. I don't have "Barack Obama personally convincing noted sane person Haim Saban to lie", which is good since I never claimed anything of the sort. I'm sure that moron Saban actually believes this poo poo. I have Obama confidantes and close circle (which is fair to say probably includes Obama himself) recruiting Perez. I have 'sources close to Obama' briefing the press about their real gripes with Ellison. I have 'sources close to Obama' feeding, to the press, that Ellison defending Farrakhan in the 90s is a thing they're worried about, and thus it's put out there, without any actual context or explanation as to why this is bad for the DNC head. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 00:20
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These Obama circle Democrats are so dumb, arrogant and overconfident that they actually give interviews before and after the DNC election where they say "yeah our explicit goal was to prevent the Sanders wing from getting power" and then you want to be outraged that people don't believe that they had other reasons for not wanting Ellison, reasons which just happen to not make any sense at all.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:26
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loquacius posted:pft It's not. Nor is it any less. That's my loving point. He is free to make his judgement and you are free to make yours. There's no emperor of the Jewish people who speaks on behalf of all Hebrews. Them having trepidation about Ellison does not invalidate your amiability towards him, nor vice versa. The issue is that people are saying that these people need to be punished for even having these opinions, and that they must be sinister neoliberals lies. Cause no-one can ever just disagree with you, they have to be evil liars just trying to hurt you.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:26
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Fulchrum posted:It's not. Nor is it any less. That's my loving point. He is free to make his judgement and you are free to make yours. Democrats are evil liars, hth
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Apr 4, 2017 00:29
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Fulchrum posted:That is the attitude Bernie Bros took up and sprinted with when claiming this was useful to them so they could attack Hillary. Hillary campaigned for noted turbo racist Barry Goldwater. Does that make her forever a racist? Or is it just a disingenuous smear?
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Apr 4, 2017 00:30
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Fulchrum posted:It's not. Nor is it any less. That's my loving point. He is free to make his judgement and you are free to make yours. Or, may I offer, that Alan Dershowitz has lovely, evil opinions and that is bad, regardless of whether he honestly believes them or they are politically motivated lies
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Apr 4, 2017 00:31
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Fulchrum posted:It's not. Nor is it any less. That's my loving point. He is free to make his judgement and you are free to make yours. It's a little hypocritical to condemn Republican dogwhistles against people of other races or religions, and then turn a blind eye towards a pretty clear dogwhistle against a black Muslim running for DNC chair. Also, when a growing number of Dems want corporate money out of politics, having a mega-donor play a major roll in nixing an economically progressive candidate for the position does not exactly send the best message. e: I mean, God almighty: quote:[Haim] Saban, who gave millions to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, spoke about Ellison at the Brooking Institution's Saban Forum, an annual gathering between American and Israeli political leaders, during a question-and-answer portion of a conversation with Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman and moderated by CNN's Jake Tapper. Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 00:50
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Fulchrum posted:It's not. Nor is it any less. That's my loving point. He is free to make his judgement and you are free to make yours. On the contrary, you were absolutely trying to present his viewpoint as representative of Jewish people before I stepped in and complicated the issue, yw  If his opinion is no more or less important than mine, please stop concern-trolling on my behalf unless you have some loving Jewish polls or whatever
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Apr 4, 2017 00:50
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loquacius posted:On the contrary, you were absolutely trying to present his viewpoint as representative of Jewish people before I stepped in and complicated the issue, yw No I wasn't, I was presenting it as his opinion, and that people were pretending that Ellison was like any other Muslim, not an individual.
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Apr 4, 2017 01:02
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