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A really excellent point, pork. When talking to people tangentially related to the industry (like servers), I often talk about acid openly to keep things clear to them. But I will commonly recommend they find another word when talking to consumers because "acid" evokes battery acid or something. The alternate ways you suggest that people use are really good and evoke the relevant sensation while putting a friendlier spin on them.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:03
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got off on a technicality posted:Yes exactly; I'm finding the very alcoholic (that Maybach was 14.8% I think) cult cabs increasingly unsatisfying. Oh well, I now know better Alcohol mellows as it ages. Spirits are an excellent example of this. If a wine has an excess of tannin and alcohol, these will benefit from aging. If it has an excess of fruit, that will give in longevity as it ages. Napa Cab isn't my style either, but without question they improve with age because they're typically fruity, tannic, and high alcohol.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:17
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That's a double-edged sword, though, because really high alcohol wines are basically pickles that age at a glacial pace. I had a ~15ish year old Turley Zin once and while it had some subtle marks of age, it was still boisterous, concentrated, and deeply hued. There was almost no rim variation to it at all. The guy who pulled it out was a boss of mine at the time, which was too bad because I wanted to comment that he had wasted those 15 years.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:15
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Napa Valley Cab must have a market, but it certainly as gently caress is not me or anyone I've ever actually talked to in person (minus those who consume wine as a status symbol). Although I typically prefer lower-alcohol wines, I often enjoy high alcohol wines that aren't from Napa. Amarone della Valpolicella is a great example: super high alcohol, but it just works for me somehow, in a way that giant Napa reds never have. EDIT: On another subject, here's a guy who feels the way I feel about natural wine: http://www.timatkin.com/articles?1773 I thought I was the only one! PT6A fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 00:32
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PT6A posted:(minus those who consume wine as a status symbol). As someone who sells wine professionally, I can confirm that this is 90% of the market for $100+ wines. I wish I was exaggerating but I'm not. And Napa Valley happens to produce a lot of $100+ wines.
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Apr 4, 2017 01:23
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I have no idea what that natural wine rant/parody/whatever the gently caress it is is even trying to say. Like, as a person who drinks a lot of natural wine, goes to wine bars/shops/restaurants which specialize in it, and is friends with plenty of people who prefer natural wine, I don't think I've met anyone like the putative girlfriend in the post (by the way, that bit of it struck me as repeatedly sexist). But I've met plenty of people who even hear the phrase "natural wine" and go berserk in defense of, well, industrial wine.
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Apr 4, 2017 01:52
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pork never goes bad posted:I don't think I've met anyone like the putative girlfriend in the post Turn your monitor off  But seriously there are zealots of the natural wine cult. Living in a North American metropolis, I've met plenty. Do they represent the majority of natural wine's fans? Nope, but they're the most vocal and the easiest pickins so they make the best target of a satirical wine blog.
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Apr 4, 2017 02:19
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IIRC that's the Hosemaster of Wine writer, isn't it? He usually pokes fun at any and every sacred cow he can find, and let's be honest, natural wine has plenty of easy targets. Re: aging, I don't know that alcohol at wine levels (say, 12-16%) has as much of an effect on aging as acid and tannin both in terms of stability (low pH = less stuff wants to go live in there) and complexity (lots of long phenolic chains forming over time). The basics of building a wine to age is getting good extraction (lots of phenolics and tannins) and picking when you still have reasonable pH/TA (titratable acid) to carry the wine. Fruit may or may not be apparent early, but ideally there's enough of it wound up in the core of the wine that it can emerge and integrate with the acidity and tannin over time. The thing is, if you think of "fruit" as "more fruit = more jammy, more ripe" you aren't really thinking of it accurately. Carbonic Gamay is rooty tooty fruity but generally doesn't have anything close to "jammy" or "stewed" in it. So if you're wondering about a big, fruity Napa Cab having the power to age, the problem is that they're probably picking at higher sugars to get those big, jammy flavors in there, which means lower acids and higher pH right off the bat. There's a good chance that they're using mostly free run and very light press cuts to avoid too much astringency and bitterness (I loving love astringency and bitterness in a wine and I think it's one of the foundations of building an elegant wine), so that would mean relatively lower tannins as well. There's also a good chance they're fined and filtered, too, further eliminating phenolics. Picking at high sugar/low acid also presents a whole host of other issues that generally require lots of dicking around with additives and technology to make a balanced, stable wine.
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Apr 4, 2017 06:36
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Isn't acid making a comeback (comefirsttime?) in California? Went to a California Chardonnay tasting a few weeks ago, had Kistler, Kongsgaard, Lioco, Tyler, Red Car, etc. Most were nice and fresh, a few were cheek tingling, a few again were cougar juice.
Ola fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 07:23
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Acid is really in right now.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:39
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My local shop just got a case of Tornatore Etna Rosso and I really enjoyed it, grabbed 6 bottles. Nice structure, maybe a bit over oaked but still compares pretty well to Burgundy going for twice the price. Anyone looking for a good QPR Burgundy substitute should give it a go.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:40
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Ola posted:Isn't acid making a comeback (comefirsttime?) in California? Went to a California Chardonnay tasting a few weeks ago, had Kistler, Kongsgaard, Lioco, Tyler, Red Car, etc. Most were nice and fresh, a few were cheek tingling, a few again were cougar juice. In most of California, yeah, but not so much in Napa. When land costs $300 000 per acre (compared to say $60 000 in Sonoma), growers are a lot of hesitant to shift away from the established style. There are more and more exceptions, but the rule is still very much ultra-ripe, and less acid adjustment than say, Australia.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:41
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idiotsavant posted:IIRC that's the Hosemaster of Wine writer, isn't it? He usually pokes fun at any and every sacred cow he can find, and let's be honest, natural wine has plenty of easy targets. As much as I loathe the classic Napa Cabernet style, they do age extremely well. I've recently had examples from the 90s which are downright youthful. They may be low acid, but their dry extract and alcohol and typically off the charts, and tannins are usually high as well. Acid is a funny one when it comes to aging: People overestimate its preservative effect, but underestimate its sensory effect. What I mean is, acid doesn't slow the aging of a wine as much as people think, but people often underestimate how much youthfulness high acid adds to a developed wine.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:52
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Agree on the sensory effect, but acid plays an indirect role in aging in regards to pH - high pH levels require a lot more manipulation in terms of possible acid adds, sulfur adds, how much a winery might water back, etc. It isn't so much about preservation like sulfur is as much as ensuring stability over time.
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Apr 4, 2017 22:43
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Glad to see some activity in this thread! On the low end front, I got the Espiral Vinho Rosé at Trader Joes for very cheap and wow is that good. So refreshing. Portuguese Rosé made in the Vinho Verde style. On the more high end front, i went to a Piedmont wine dinner locally and had a Barolo that tasted like Old Bay seasoning and/or seafood. Never experienced that before in a wine, wild stuff.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:58
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Norwegian Easter is a big deal, it's a holiday from mid-Wednesday through Monday. Here's this year's to-do list: Going to explore Austria a bit this spring. Starting on the right, Meinklang is a brand which is doing well among the natural-curious here in Norway. They do natural (or "natural" or whatever) the way I've come to like it, which is not carbonated manure, but juicy style reds that are quite expressive with enough character (or style flaws?) to signal low intervention. Juicy, but with a stony, brambly edge. Think I've only had a grüner veltliner from their whites before, which I thought was quite ho-hum. This white is 100% Juhfark, (which I've wiki'd but never tasted) macerated 5 days and aged in big, old barrels so it should be interesting. The next two Austrians are from Leithaberg in Burgenland, which is a new appellation (2009) which schtick is Blaufränkisch on limestone. Don't know much about them, but this tasting note on the Heinrich sold me hard: quote:Dark ruby-garnet hue with a violet reflection. Intensely soft smokiness underscores the morello and heart cherry fruit, the fine touch of slate and the multifaceted herb-laced bouquet. Juicy and elegant with a vibrant acidity structure. Good length with spicy minerality and subtle saltiness. Still very young. Guiborat is a small producer, I picked it half randomly at a champagne release, mostly helped by its price tag sitting next to vintages and cult producers. Medium expectations. Then finally the Masi Campofiorin IGP. My mom bought it in duty free and gave it to me as thanks for me giving her a blue cheese and a Tokaji as thanks for borrowing her car. Moms!  Its main mission this Easter is to make some lamb and various other ingredients come together and work as a stew. And perhaps keep the chef motivated. There's room for more I guess, but have to do some driving and skiing as well. Will borrow my mom's car.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:15
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I haven't had that bottling, but Heinrich makes outstanding Blaufrankisch. Smoky, meaty, and floral like Cote Rotie, but with a little more delicacy and fruit than the norm.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:42
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Kasumeat posted:I haven't had that bottling, but Heinrich makes outstanding Blaufrankisch. Smoky, meaty, and floral like Cote Rotie, but with a little more delicacy and fruit than the norm. Wow, that's a great comparison. I was hoping the hunt for value would yield some treasure in Austria.
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Apr 6, 2017 11:43
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Has anyone else noticed a bias against atypical new world Cab Sauv in reviews? I picked up a bottle of Los Vascos, a cheap Chilean C/S, on a whim because I remembered hearing something good about it somewhere, and then I looked at the reviews -- 85-86 pretty much across the board, which is a fairly brutal score in general, the only standout being Jancis Robinson giving it 15.5 (which is, frankly, fine for a very inexpensive wine). So I was expecting the worst when I opened it -- perhaps another bottle I'd have to dump down the sink. Yeah, it was not particularly complex, I'll give it that. Nor do I think it will benefit from aging. But for a cheap bottle of red wine, it had a good deal of balance and was nicely fruit-forward while still being fresh, instead of being overripe and out of balance like so many new world examples can be, especially on the cheaper side of things. Have we gotten to the point where that those overripe examples are considered the standard, and any deviation from that style is penalized?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:43
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Aren't you literally describing the Parker effect which has hosed wine styling for like a generation? Christ.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:39
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pork never goes bad posted:Aren't you literally describing the Parker effect which has hosed wine styling for like a generation? Christ. I think it's a little deeper than that, but they're related. Let's say they're two symptoms of the same disease.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:59
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Maybe there's another Parker effect, points compression, which I have just dreamed up and which is causing a problem in expectations. According to Parker himself: 80-84 wines are ‘above average’ to ‘good’ 85-90 wines are ‘good’ to ‘very good’ So if an experienced wine critic gave it 85, I'd take that as a recommendation. On cellartracker however, people are loathe to give too high or too low scores, so they tend to compress. 85 is awful, 89 ok minus, 90 ok, 95 legendary. Might as well rate from 1 to 10 then.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:18
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Ola posted:Maybe there's another Parker effect, points compression, which I have just dreamed up and which is causing a problem in expectations. Those wines are "average" compared to every bottle of wine ever made. 85 or less is critic-speak for atrocious. Cellartracker is just "compressed" because it's a metascore based on several people.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:41
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Then that critic is compressed too. The ones I read regularly will rate a typical, decent CdR for instance in the mid 80s, I think that's fine. It's not atrocious, there's just a bit of air between a "regular" wine and a great wine. And I don't mean the aggregated CT score, I mean individual ones.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:46
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Ola posted:Then that critic is compressed too. The ones I read regularly will rate a typical, decent CdR for instance in the mid 80s, I think that's fine. It's not atrocious, there's just a bit of air between a "regular" wine and a great wine. And I don't mean the aggregated CT score, I mean individual ones. You're from Norway, aren't you? Every country is different, but Europe tends to have the lowest scores, Australia the highest, and North America in the middle. Here are some examples from professional critics in Canada of how poor wines in the 83-85 range are: quote:Dark, spicy, curiously buttery and woody, this pinotage, as most, is an acquired taste. Tannins are hard and wood-caramel sticks out. Tasted January 2017. Almost all of these are 85s, because few critics will publish anything below 85 unless they have some personal vendetta against the winery or something.
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Apr 22, 2017 07:20
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Yeah, part of the problem is I've had some really, impressively terrible 85-87 point wines rated by the usual suspects. European raters, especially Spanish, tend to be much less forgiving, to the point that even a 12/20 can be a decent, if decidedly average, wine. And I always thought the Parker effect was more about his outsized influence driving producers to craft wines to his specific preferences. Now it seems like more and more raters are looking for the exact same thing, which is a different problem, albeit related.
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Apr 22, 2017 16:21
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The more we even talk about points the more we lend credence to such a garbage, arbitrary rating system. I've been on multiple wine competition panels awarding medals and points, and I can assure you the points are beyond meaningless and decided on a whim. If they didn't matter so much to sales they might go away, but that's just wishful thinking on my part. I see it like rating a painting. This painting is 97 points. This tea is 92 points. Why do we allow this nonsense for wine when we would probably all agree how dumb it sounds for other subjective experiences?
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Apr 22, 2017 20:48
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I think the conversation about points is about as played out as it can get. I'd rather talk about the inherent bias against terroirs that aren't the "classic" oeuvre. Chile is a great example but there are others. There are shockingly a lot in old-world places. I'm always frustrated when I hear "brand managers" talk about how they are trying to move brands into the mainstream. It just shows a will to homogenize wine until it all sells the same. It's a flat and dull world and I hate it. Again, I think scores are just a symptom of this disease, and not the disease itself.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:54
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You're right Kasumeat, both where I'm from and that points have different inflation here and there, apparently. Those sound like low-70s to me. And yes, points are pretty dumb. But if you read Parker's own descritption, they're a good compromise. He apparently has a sturdy system with this much dedicated to nose, this much to aging potential etc etc, "no replacement for your own palate" and so on. But in many cases it just ends up being a quantitative expression of a qualitative opinion, adjusted for bias. Certainly when others do it. When someone can say "91" two seconds after a sip, cleary they haven't done Parker's math. (He probably doesn't do them either)The Norwegian reviewers I know could never ever give 100 points to a Chilean wine, but they know they are supposed to give it to Romanée Conti, even if they text might say it's closed and unexpressive now. But it still works as a device for sharing information, it's just not very good at telling the whole story.
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Apr 22, 2017 21:12
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Has anyone tried this new rash of red wines finished in whiskey barrels? What loving garbage this is and I want to punch whoever thought of it. I had one called Cooper & Thief tonight and I have to say the name is correct on both counts. It was like a brick of burnt fruit on my tongue with some lead thrown in for weight.
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Apr 28, 2017 03:00
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I haven't, or even heard of this for that matter. I imagine that's on top of a generous helping of new barrique already.
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Apr 28, 2017 05:57
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Heh Cooper and Thief is disgusting but it sells really well. So insanely sweet and over the top oak. Bourbon Barrel Aged Cabs and Blends are a big trend nowadays, probably a carryover from craft beer.
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Apr 28, 2017 05:58
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We need sherry that's been aged in a sherry cask that was used to age scotch, just so this trend can crawl entirely up its own rear end. And then we'll empty the barrel of sherry and used it to make sherry-scotch-sherry-aged scotch.
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Apr 28, 2017 13:52
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PT6A posted:We need sherry that's been aged in a sherry cask that was used to age scotch, just so this trend can crawl entirely up its own rear end. Call it the Escher Cuvee.
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Apr 28, 2017 14:25
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Overwined posted:Call it the Escher Cuvee. The Ouroboros Cuvee.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:24
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PT6A posted:The Ouroboros Cuvee. The Matryoshka Meritage.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:22
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I need to stop searching for things like a good, cheap Barolo and a good, cheap Burgundy, etc. because my search always ends in tears and I end up with a case of wine-blue-balls. Budget hunting is cool and good, but I think I need to focus on finding good wines from unknown regions (which I've had great luck with), not searching in vain for good, inexpensive wines from prestigious regions (which I'm starting to think don't exist).
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May 1, 2017 00:32
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Boutari Grande Reserve Naoussa is amazing dead-ringer-for-Barolo for well under $20. In fact it's more balanced on release than 90% of Barolo ever will be and has 10-20 years of cellaring potential. If you're talking red Burgundy, I really like Newton-Johnson's Pinot Noir. It's reductive as hell and needs to be opened a day ahead of time, but it comes around beautifully for a $20 Pinot.
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May 1, 2017 01:01
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Kasumeat posted:Boutari Grande Reserve Naoussa is amazing dead-ringer-for-Barolo for well under $20. In fact it's more balanced on release than 90% of Barolo ever will be and has 10-20 years of cellaring potential. Oh that's very much my poo poo. I'm gonna look for both of those. SA seems to have a lot of undervalued wines at the moment, to be entirely honest, as does Greece I assume (I can't say I've actually tried one). Honestly, there are a lot of inexpensive Aglianicos that could pass for a mediocre-to-good Barolo too, and I have some of them, which makes me doubly pissed off. I'm frustrated because I feel like I know enough about wine at this point that I should be able to steer clear of obvious nonsense and poo poo sales tactics, but I always end up loving myself anyway. Or maybe I know just enough now to know that, in fact, I know nothing. I opened up two other bottles to try and drink with my dinner. No dice. It's just not my fuckin' day. The first bottle was disappointing but not bad (as it turned out), the second (Marques de Casa Concha 2014 Carmenere) was pure, utter garbage and is utterly without any redeeming quality, and then the third was a cheap NZ wine which I shouldn't have opened, but I was just so pissed off at all my other wines and I didn't want to risk opening another semi-expensive bottle. Honestly, my luck has been so bad tonight I would consider that maybe my palate is just hosed up tonight, except for the fact that I drank some nice palo cortado and it was fantastic. I had another glass after my other wine misadventures, just to see if there was something wrong with me, but, no, it was still superb, even though I opened the bottle about a month ago. PT6A fucked around with this message at 01:53 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 01:50
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if you're looking for value I'm pretty sure Loire Cab franc still hits way above its weight class. I mean, yeah, there's Clos Rougeard and all, but you can get some really good stuff under $20 pretty easily, and some awesome stuff for under $30. Just learn to love the pepper (it's not hard!) and you're set. Oh, also Passetoutgrain - it's typically a blend of Pinot and Gamay and when it's good it's loving magic. Christian Venier does a Cheverny version that's so goddamn good.
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May 4, 2017 04:20
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