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Platystemon posted:Undercover FBI agents posed as documentary filmmakers for a production titled “America Reloaded” to draw statements from the men who rushed to support rancher Cliven Bundy in his 2014 stand against the federal government. Please don't cite the Review-Journal.
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Mar 25, 2017 02:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Please don't cite the Review-Journal. May I cite Buzzfeed citing the Review‐Journal?
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Mar 25, 2017 02:10
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Since the Review-Journal is just citing the court proceeding, just cite the court proceeding! I'm concerned that the only places covering this are citing the Review-Journal, aside from the local CBS affiliate. Discendo Vox has issued a correction as of 02:29 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 02:26
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Discendo Vox posted:Since the Review-Journal is just citing the court proceeding, just cite the court proceeding! We can’t even get juries to pay attention to that.
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Mar 25, 2017 02:29
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Platystemon posted:We can’t even get juries to pay attention to that. We should aspire to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator of all humanity.
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Mar 25, 2017 02:32
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Ouch. Using the guise of journalism to get undercover guys in makes about as much sense as using a vaccination program to find OBL. drat those guys just don't give a poo poo.
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Mar 25, 2017 03:34
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TotalLossBrain posted:Ouch. Using the guise of journalism to get undercover guys in makes about as much sense as using a vaccination program to find OBL. drat those guys just don't give a poo poo. Yeah, we don't want people to start questioning the legitimacy and integrity of journalism.  Though I suppose that might have still been a consideration back in 2014 or whatever.
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Mar 25, 2017 04:56
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TotalLossBrain posted:Ouch. Using the guise of journalism to get undercover guys in makes about as much sense as using a vaccination program to find OBL. drat those guys just don't give a poo poo. Two things here. 1. It worked. The evidence that came out in court Wednesday appears likely to be dispositive. 2. There's a reason that almost the only places carrying this story are right wing fringe outlets.
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Mar 25, 2017 06:11
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Being used against them at the scene by the guys they were pointing guns at is something they probably didn’t expect, but: Things you tell to journalists have never been things that cannot be used against you in court. Their problem is that they trusted the journalists, not that the journalists were Federal agents. Any real journalist could have willingly disclosed the same information.
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Mar 25, 2017 06:20
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I know I'm overreacting. I don't like it on principle, but I realize it's perfectly legal and on the guys willingly giving out information. It's not like they could have counted on a real interview not to be used in court later (unless interviewed by OPB, of course).
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Mar 25, 2017 06:25
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Discendo Vox posted:1. It worked. The evidence that came out in court Wednesday appears likely to be dispositive. The fact that it worked makes it worse. Also, what is that reason? TotalLossBrain posted:I know I'm overreacting. I don't like it on principle, but I realize it's perfectly legal and on the guys willingly giving out information. It's not like they could have counted on a real interview not to be used in court later (unless interviewed by OPB, of course). Yeah but at least then there would have potentially been an actual documentary that was made. It wouldn't have eroded trust in the institution and investigative journalists and documentarians. I'm less concerned with them willing to go public with incriminating themselves, and more concerned with the posing as people doing important work and thus making it more difficult for those who do that important work to do it.
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Mar 25, 2017 16:00
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#notallreporters
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Mar 26, 2017 00:56
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Actually, it’s about ethics in rancher journalism.
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Mar 26, 2017 01:54
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GlyphGryph posted:Yeah but at least then there would have potentially been an actual documentary that was made. It wouldn't have eroded trust in the institution and investigative journalists and documentarians. I'm less concerned with them willing to go public with incriminating themselves, and more concerned with the posing as people doing important work and thus making it more difficult for those who do that important work to do it. Militia-sympathetic "documentarians" who make "America Unloaded" aren't doing important work.
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Mar 26, 2017 05:19
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Discendo Vox posted:Militia-sympathetic "documentarians" who make "America Unloaded" aren't doing important work. You could have just said "Pete Santilli" and everyone would have got it.
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Mar 26, 2017 05:21
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TotalLossBrain posted:You could have just said "Pete Santilli" and everyone would have got it. Fair point. I have a deep distaste for the whole documentarian genre. It's as much a source of propaganda and advertising as it has ever been a medium of honest communication.
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Mar 26, 2017 08:37
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Discendo Vox posted:Fair point. I have a deep distaste for the whole documentarian genre. It's as much a source of propaganda and advertising as it has ever been a medium of honest communication. hey now dinesh d'souza paid his debt to society over many weeknights being made to sleep in a dorm with hardened criminals and now he's the most profitable documentarian in history
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Mar 27, 2017 08:08
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:hey now dinesh d'souza paid his debt to society over many weeknights being made to sleep in a dorm with hardened criminals and now he's the most profitable documentarian in history Yes I love getting my morality lectures from a convicted felon and divorcee.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:44
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Discendo Vox posted:Militia-sympathetic "documentarians" who make "America Unloaded" aren't doing important work. "[blah] is actually good because I know it will only actually be used against bad people" is not a very convincing argument, especially when the chilling effect is going to still hit people who aren't the bad people.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:20
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GlyphGryph posted:"[blah] is actually good because I know it will only actually be used against bad people" is not a very convincing argument, especially when the chilling effect is going to still hit people who aren't the bad people. It's okay though, because in 2017 nobody believes in professional journalism anymore anyway. In our post-truth world a guy with a blog or a youtube channel is considered as much a journalist as the guys on the nightly news. Posing as a random documentarian is no less ethical than posing as a random pizza delivery guy.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:45
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GlyphGryph posted:"[blah] is actually good because I know it will only actually be used against bad people" is not a very convincing argument, especially when the chilling effect is going to still hit people who aren't the bad people. Good thing that wasn't my whole argument, huh.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:06
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Facebook Aunt posted:It's okay though, because in 2017 nobody believes in professional journalism anymore anyway. In our post-truth world a guy with a blog or a youtube channel is considered as much a journalist as the guys on the nightly news. Posing as a random documentarian is no less ethical than posing as a random pizza delivery guy. yeah the fbi could have pretended to be a BBQ delivery truck and y'all qaeda would have spilled their guts out all the same. Sucks they had to further degrade the state of 'journalism' to do it, unfortunately.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:26
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The only way a documentarian, even with the best of intentions, could get close to militias is by lying to them. They're incredibly paranoid, hyper insular, and stupid as poo poo, they don't talk to anyone who doesn't match their views at least 90%.
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Mar 28, 2017 09:31
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:The only way a documentarian, even with the best of intentions, could get close to militias is by lying to them. They're incredibly paranoid, hyper insular, and stupid as poo poo, they don't talk to anyone who doesn't match their views at least 90%.
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Mar 28, 2017 11:58
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Undercover kind of implies lying to them
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Mar 28, 2017 16:47
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this kinda proves my point though?
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Mar 28, 2017 18:31
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To be fair Bauer said he would admit to being a journalist if asked, but no one asked, and a Facebook page with a Gadsden flag was enough to pass their background check  He did the same thing for his piece on private prisons, just left journalist off his job application. All they had to do was google his name.
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Mar 28, 2017 19:45
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Shalebridge Cradle posted:Undercover kind of implies lying to them
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Mar 28, 2017 21:36
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red19fire posted:To be fair Bauer said he would admit to being a journalist if asked, but no one asked, and a Facebook page with a Gadsden flag was enough to pass their background check IIRC he actually listed his previous journalism jobs on the application for the prison one.
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Mar 29, 2017 01:40
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nm posted:IIRC he actually listed his previous journalism jobs on the application for the prison one. I read that whole piece (I thought it was good) but I don't remember him being that explicit. The people at the prison were pretty shocked and surprised when it turned out he was a journalist. The photographer for MJ was actually picked up by the cops, if memory serves.
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Mar 29, 2017 02:33
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I read that whole piece (I thought it was good) but I don't remember him being that explicit. The people at the prison were pretty shocked and surprised when it turned out he was a journalist. The photographer for MJ was actually picked up by the cops, if memory serves. quote:CCA certainly seemed eager to give me a chance to join its team. Within two weeks of filling out its online application, using my real name and personal information, several CCA prisons contacted me, some multiple times. Edit: this says he gave them his full resume. http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-investigative-journalism-editors-note
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Mar 29, 2017 03:22
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Yeah, that seems like a pretty defensible dodge on his part. Like I said, I liked the piece - hell, I subscribe to Mother Jones.
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Mar 29, 2017 03:44
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i suspect private prisons have a hard time finding people: it pays poo poo, and the people who would gravitate towards such a position (violent authoritarians who couldnt get into police academy) have a decreased probability of passing a background check
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Mar 29, 2017 03:59
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It is far more damning if he gave them the resume and they just ignored them. Background checks should be like 50% of law enforcement recruiting (the other half should by psych).
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Mar 29, 2017 03:59
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whut if... not only do you pay your regular employees poo poo, you also pay your middle management employees like HR poo poo as well? imagine the profit margins you could squeeze out of that
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Mar 29, 2017 04:02
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they call me a disruptor... an innovator
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Mar 29, 2017 04:03
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Phobophilia posted:i suspect private prisons have a hard time finding people: it pays poo poo, and the people who would gravitate towards such a position (violent authoritarians who couldnt get into police academy) have a decreased probability of passing a background check the trick is that you open them in lovely rural counties so you attract every dipshit redneck who's smart enough to move between different lovely rural towns, but too dumb to cut it in a decent sized city, and thus too dumb to realize they're getting paid poo poo
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Mar 29, 2017 04:18
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Judge Makes Key Ruling on Defense Witnesses in Standoff Casequote:A jury might hear from just one or two defense witnesses and only one of the six men accused of wielding guns against federal agents during a 2014 standoff involving Nevada cattleman and states' rights advocate Cliven Bundy, following a judge's decision Monday limiting the scope of remaining testimony. Discendo Vox has issued a correction as of 09:39 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 09:34
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Phobophilia posted:whut if... not only do you pay your regular employees poo poo, you also pay your middle management employees like HR poo poo as well? imagine the profit margins you could squeeze out of that just stop paying all labor and threaten them with a gun if they refuse to keep working
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Apr 4, 2017 09:45
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I can't get over special agent Dan Love.
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Apr 4, 2017 09:59
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