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mcmagic posted:That isn't how planeswalkers work. It sits on the table and generates more card advantage as it sits there because you only pay for it once. If it blanks a creature for 2 turns that is already card advantage. lmao
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Apr 5, 2017 16:35
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:I think you're just shouting jargon at random now. Accept your lord and savior abrupt decay and relax. D&T plays the 4 mana Gideon already at times... Skyl3lazer posted:That isn't how card advantage works Yes it is. Planeswalkers are virtual card advantage. You don't understand virtual card advantage if you want to argue this.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:35
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Pull up thread pull up! Yes I see the irony
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Apr 5, 2017 16:36
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mcmagic posted:It's +1 is Virtual card advantage. in the same way that creature with defender are card advantage engines, yes
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Apr 5, 2017 16:36
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mcmagic posted:That isn't how planeswalkers work. It sits on the table and generates more card advantage as it sits there because you only pay for it once. If it blanks a creature for 2 turns that is already card advantage. No. This Gideon cannot ever deal with an opponents card permanently. If you blank a creature for 2 turns, it's still going to be there on the third. This doesn't leave anything behind if it's removed, regardless of how long it's on the battlefield, therefore it does not provide card advantage. This Gideon is essentially a 1WW 4/4 with upside.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:37
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Gideon and Standard forever and ever one hundred years
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Apr 5, 2017 16:37
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mcmagic posted:That isn't how planeswalkers work. It sits on the table and generates more card advantage as it sits there because you only pay for it once. If it blanks a creature for 2 turns that is already card advantage. That creature really wasn't taken care of since it's still on the table too, ready to attack when a bigger bro comes in to take the debuff off.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:38
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I don't want to go back and look for it but pretend I emptyquoted the person who said the new Gideon's emblem is redundant with the old one not rotating
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Apr 5, 2017 16:38
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Sampatrick posted:No. This Gideon cannot ever deal with an opponents card permanently. If you blank a creature for 2 turns, it's still going to be there on the third. This doesn't leave anything behind if it's removed, regardless of how long it's on the battlefield, therefore it does not provide card advantage. This Gideon is essentially a 1WW 4/4 with upside. You actually will play other cards in your deck though and you can actually use Gideon's abilities differently when it is to your advantage to do so based on the game situation...
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Apr 5, 2017 16:39
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Btw for those of you who don't know, Virtual Card Advantage is a term used to indicate the prevention of Card Advantage by opponent, or loss of CA yourself. If I Counterspell my opponent's Opportunity, I've gained Virtual Card Advantage.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:39
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mcmagic posted:D&T plays the 4 mana Gideon already at times... Hm, well then, I guess that justifies why they'd play a worse card that helps their gameplan even less.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:40
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 just to be clear, according to mcmagic's logic, this would give you card advantage for every turn it sits on the battlefield
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Apr 5, 2017 16:40
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mcmagic posted:Yes it is. Planeswalkers are virtual card advantage. You don't understand virtual card advantage if you want to argue this. Virtual card advantage means that you have one card that answers multiple. For instance, if I'm playing Lantern Control, I can have a stack of unplayable garbage in play because my Ensnaring Bridge is a de fact 8 for 1 or whatever.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:40
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little munchkin posted:
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Apr 5, 2017 16:40
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fart advantage
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Apr 5, 2017 16:41
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If I play a Chalice of the Void on 1, and my opponent has 3 1 drops in hand and doesn't cast them, that's Virtual Card Advantage.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:41
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mcmagic posted:You actually will play other cards in your deck though and you can actually use Gideon's abilities differently when it is to your advantage to do so based on the game situation... Those are all true and 100% irrelevant things. Gideon of the Trials does not have the ability to generate card advantage.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:41
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Skyl3lazer posted:Btw for those of you who don't know, Virtual Card Advantage is a term used to indicate the prevention of Card Advantage by opponent, or loss of CA yourself. If I Counterspell my opponent's Opportunity, I've gained Virtual Card Advantage. No that is not true. When you counter a spell with a one for one counterspell, that is not card advantage. quote:Virtual card advantage can refer to a number of different situations and effects which, while not providing a direct advantage in the number of cards available, changes the value of the cards available to one or both players. There are four primary forms of virtual card advantage: card selection, recurring effects, tempo and playing such that the opponents cards are no longer as valuable to them.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:41
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I think new Gideon is pretty bad actually. He's a win more that offers little value on his own.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:42
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Sampatrick posted:No. This Gideon cannot ever deal with an opponents card permanently. If you blank a creature for 2 turns, it's still going to be there on the third. This doesn't leave anything behind if it's removed, regardless of how long it's on the battlefield, therefore it does not provide card advantage. This Gideon is essentially a 1WW 4/4 with upside. Or a pacifism with upside.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:42
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mcmagic posted:No that is not true. When you counter a spell with a one for one counterspell, that is not card advantage. But when you one-for-one +1 a planeswalker forever to stop one guy, that is?
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Apr 5, 2017 16:42
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Skyl3lazer posted:Btw for those of you who don't know, Virtual Card Advantage is a term used to indicate the prevention of Card Advantage by opponent, or loss of CA yourself. If I Counterspell my opponent's Opportunity, I've gained Virtual Card Advantage. I consider some repeatable activated abilities as well. Like token generation (if it's a relevant size) or creature destruction.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:43
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Ein Sexmonster posted:I think new Gideon is pretty bad actually. He's a win more that offers little value on his own. I'm gonna save this for future lols.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:43
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How are they so bad at this. I really hope them moving people off this project was them admitting their designers were poo poo, and the next set won't be garbage.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:43
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Ein Sexmonster posted:I think new Gideon is pretty bad actually. He's a win more that offers little value on his own. Just think of him as a 4/4 that can sometimes be a Pacifism and sometimes randomly hate out some decks g1. He's still very good, just not the best thing since putting butter on your sliced bread.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:44
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Ein Sexmonster posted:I think new Gideon is pretty bad actually. He's a win more that offers little value on his own. yea everyone trying to justify how it's unbeatable is starting to convince me of the opposite that said it's still an abysmal design. either it's oppressive and unfun or it's unplayable, with no in-between. some 8th edition poo poo for sure
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Apr 5, 2017 16:45
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I hear fog is card advantage because I can blank all of my opponent's creatures for one turn.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:46
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DangerDongs posted:How are they so bad at this. I really hope them moving people off this project was them admitting their designers were poo poo, and the next set won't be garbage. What's the chance that the phyrexian cosplay guy got booted?
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Apr 5, 2017 16:46
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:But when you one-for-one +1 a planeswalker forever to stop one guy, that is? Are you really disingenuous enough to think that that's what the play patterns are going to be with this card?
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Apr 5, 2017 16:46
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This Gideon is very good in standard, but mainly because the other Gideon exists and is very good.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:46
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little munchkin posted:yea everyone trying to justify how it's unbeatable is starting to convince me of the opposite I 100% agree with this independent of anything else about the actual card's usefulness
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Apr 5, 2017 16:47
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mcmagic posted:I'm gonna save this for future lols. I could definitely see Zendikar Gideon pushing baby Gideon out for as long as they share the format. I also think baby Gideon goes into less decks, but could be misevaluating.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:47
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little munchkin posted:yea everyone trying to justify how it's unbeatable is starting to convince me of the opposite Oh yea I'm not saying he's a healthy card. I just think he's way too easy to answer and offers no ongoing value. If you're keeping an unanswered planeswalker of any type alive you're probably winning anyway. And those actively help you win instead of stalling the game out.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:48
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little munchkin posted:yea everyone trying to justify how it's unbeatable is starting to convince me of the opposite the weird legacy derail does nothing to change the fact that Gideon Ally of Zendikar, already one of the strongest cards in Standard, will share a format (and a decklist) with this rear end in a top hat EDIT: It doesn't even need to live a turn, all it has to do is drop its emblem the turn it's played and then move over for the Good Gideon
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Apr 5, 2017 16:48
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ZeroCount posted:the weird legacy derail does nothing to change the fact that Gideon Ally of Zendikar, already one of the strongest cards in Standard, will share a format (and a decklist) with this rear end in a top hat They're pretty awkward when drawn together.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:49
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Rinkles posted:I could definitely see Zendikar Gideon pushing baby Gideon out for as long as they share the format. I also think baby Gideon goes into less decks, but could be misevaluating. I think all signs are pointing to daddy Gideon not being long for this standardized world of ours
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Apr 5, 2017 16:49
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Skyl3lazer posted:This Gideon is very good in standard, but mainly because the other Gideon exists and is very good. If the other Gideon didn't exist this card would be a 4 of in multiple decks and the best card in Standard. It will probably be that anyway.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:49
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The more I think about it the less I'm worried about the emblem, but it might force people into playing cards like ruinous path more. Little Gids+ally Gids could be a good control strategy though.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:50
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Reprint Mirror Gallery so we can have 4 Gideon's in play...you know....for the lulz
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Apr 5, 2017 16:50
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Ein Sexmonster posted:Oh yea I'm not saying he's a healthy card. I just think he's way too easy to answer and offers no ongoing value. Isn't this the equivalent of saying it dies to removal? Obviously this is true and that's what makes the card not quite insane but still good. A 4/4 that resists sorcery speed interaction that can also be a Pacifism and also can randomly lock people out of a game is still very good.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:50
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