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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:The first part is what matters a hell of a lot more than min wage. What is "twice the rate of unemployment of white people" as a number? And what did Clinton even offer as a policy that remotely dealt with hiring discrimination? (edit, fat dog) 
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Apr 5, 2017 16:56
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Answer the god drat question. What policy did Clinton offer to help fix systemic discrimination of minorites that Sanders didn't also offer?
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Apr 5, 2017 16:58
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Majorian posted:Step 1: round up their bosses. I don't recall this being part of the Feel the Bern policy platform
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Apr 5, 2017 16:59
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:You're strawmanning me, so yes.  But real talk here, why are you using the fact that African-American workers are often paid under the table as an excuse to oppose increasing the wage of African-American workers who are paid minimum wage?
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Apr 5, 2017 17:01
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I don't recall this being part of the Feel the Bern policy platform Sounds like someone needs to learn how to read between the lines.  Cerebral Bore posted:
Plus the suggestion that raising the minimum wage and fighting employment discrimination are mutually exclusive is ridiculous.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:03
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parallelodad posted:What policy did Clinton offer to help fix systemic discrimination of minorites that Sanders didn't also offer? Clinton openly talked about police brutality before Sanders did. She talked about school quality, about disproportionate funding, about adding guidance counselors and social workers, about police presence in schools. She had a proposal to "dismantle the school-to-prison pipeline". She talked about new federal regulations on hiring practices, supported stuff like the "ban the box" campaign, and talked about investing in workforce reentry programs. She talked about the disparities in employment rates between whites and minorities. She had economic proposals targeted towards investing in business in underserved communities, as well as targeted housing and infrastructure investments. Comprehensive immigration reform was a big part of her platform, she defended DACA and DAPA, and talked about the inhumanity of detention centers. I'm not trying to say this makes her a perfect candidate for minorities, and Sanders unquestionably had the stronger economic platform (and it's not like Sanders came out against any of that either). It's simply this: that's all poo poo that should be in every progressive platform and a big part of your speeches during the primary. And if it's not, you're not going to win.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:23
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All of that was in Sanders platform as well and he spoke about it in literally every speech after he messed up at NetRoots and immediately course corrected.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:30
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Cerebral Bore posted:
parallelodad posted:Answer the god drat question. What policy did Clinton offer to help fix systemic discrimination of minorites that Sanders didn't also offer? Majorian posted:Plus the suggestion that raising the minimum wage and fighting employment discrimination are mutually exclusive is ridiculous.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:31
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:The assumption there was political will from sanders to do the latter is ridiculous. Why? For what reason should we believe that Sanders would not have the political will to do so? quote:I do not care that he was arrested once, this thread shows that "the left" is more concerned with "economic anxiety" This thread actually shows that the left is concerned with extreme inertia in the Democratic Party, and its abandonment of economic justice as one of its twin key pillars. (the other being social justice) If you treat social justice and economic justice as mutually exclusive, you are absolutely part of the problem.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:35
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Whether 15 or 8 as the min wage, a wage increase will not result in AAs not over-representing the bottom 20% of poverty. Saying a min wage increase will help AAs out is a red herring for those issues. It's weird how "this will help but won't solve the entire problem overnight, so let's not do it" was a Republican congressional slogan before but Hill Folk seem to have latched onto it. What policy was Hillary advocating that would have ended racial disparity entirely in America, since that seems to be your criteria for worthiness? quote:I'm not going to repeat super Tuesday arguments. The older AA community as a whole is rather centrist due to being hosed over so many times in the past, something Sanders should not have been blind to, which could have been avoided if he would have had the desire to surround himself with a diverse staffing and not make such cringe worthy comments about them as a bloc. Meanwhile the Clintons are quite notable for having a very good relationship with the AA community despite not even campaigning directly to them in '91 and '95. Oh for sure, a relationship so good that they didn't even come to vote, so confident their friend Hillary had it in the bag. quote:The assumption there was political will from sanders to do the latter is ridiculous. I do not care that he was arrested once, this thread shows that "the left" is more concerned with "economic anxiety" Yeah remember that time the BLM protesters showed up at his rally and he brutally threw them down and stomped their heads into the pavement rather than let them talk? Meanwhile Hillary calmly and politely let BLM protectors speak at infinite length. Just as an example
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Apr 5, 2017 17:35
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Majorian posted:Why? For what reason should we believe that Sanders would not have the political will to do so? frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:It's weird how "this will help but won't solve the entire problem overnight, so let's not do it" was a Republican congressional slogan before but Hill Folk seem to have latched onto it.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:46
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Remember when a woman told Hillary she was disappointed with elements of her campaign on race and Clinton told her why don't you run for something then?
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Apr 5, 2017 17:46
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Whether 15 or 8 as the min wage, a wage increase will not result in AAs not over-representing the bottom 20% of poverty. Saying a min wage increase will help AAs out is a red herring for those issues. Funny how incrementalism is suddenly worthless when it comes to improving the lot of the working class. Also I still want to know your motivations for throwing a large part of African-American workers under the bus just because a proposed solution isn't perfect.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:48
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:His insistence that economic reform would solve systematic racism. When did he say this?
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Apr 5, 2017 17:49
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The hosed up thing is that liberals love saying that conservatives vote out of spite and just don't want those other people to get nice things, and here you have someone defending Hillary by saying "minimum wage wouldn't help black people enough (and conversely, would help whites too much)".
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Apr 5, 2017 17:49
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Remember when protestors took the stage when Bernie was about to speak and he stood back respectfully and told them to go ahead and say their piece?
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Apr 5, 2017 17:50
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Majorian posted:When did he say this? Pedro De Heredia posted:The hosed up thing is that liberals love saying that conservatives vote out of spite and just don't want those other people to get nice things, and here you have someone defending Hillary by saying "minimum wage wouldn't help black people enough (and conversely, would help whites too much)".
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Apr 5, 2017 17:52
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Reparations I'll give you that one but let's not pretend Clinton was in favor of reparations either.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:54
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remember whem hillary was approached by a protestor and she doused them in toxic secretions she keeps stored in a hidden gland
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Apr 5, 2017 17:54
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The hosed up thing is that liberals love saying that conservatives vote out of spite and just don't want those other people to get nice things, and here you have someone defending Hillary by saying "minimum wage wouldn't help black people enough (and conversely, would help whites too much)". Look, the proposed solution won't solve racism and therefore all working-class minorities get to suck it until one that satisfies me comes along. Also have you heard about those loving Bernie Bros and their demands for ideological purity? Submarine Sandpaper posted:There's no such thing as "progress" unless it assists those who need it the most, else you're just reaffirming existing power structure. Yeah, so gently caress those working poor PoC, right?
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Apr 5, 2017 17:55
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RaySmuckles posted:2) yes, believe all politicians when they blame their problems on a scary other :jerkbag I feel like this is actually a kind of difficult situation, since there are heavy risks to both giving the benefit of the doubt to accusations of foreign interference and to ignoring it (and implicitly allowing it as a result). The former carries the risks of 1. giving politicians an easy excuse that lets them avoid other issues and 2. potentially taking a heavy hit to credibility if you're not able to gather enough evidence (like Taibbi's article mentioned with respect to the Trump-Russia investigation). The latters risks are pretty self-evident - it's obviously bad to let bad foreign governments directly interfere in our political system. My feeling is that it's best to put a lot of effort into stopping and deterring this sort of thing behind the scenes, but that it isn't a good idea to turn it into a key political talking point (much less a defense when people attempt to discuss other mistakes made during the election). I disagree heavily with JC's assumption that Putin will give any fucks about a bunch of random Americans thinking he interfered in the election.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:55
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i'm the middle-class minimum-wage earner i work like 4 jobs but now i'm comfortably middle class ask me anything
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Apr 5, 2017 17:55
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parallelodad posted:Remember when protestors took the stage when Bernie was about to speak and he stood back respectfully and told them to go ahead and say their piece? That was just Russian psy-ops/body doubles to make Bernie look good!!!!
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Apr 5, 2017 17:56
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Ratfucked in the butt by Russian bot Bernie bros, a Chuck Tingle story.
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Apr 5, 2017 17:59
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Reparations That's a bit of a crazy extrapolation. Sanders said he didn't support reparations, and while I disagree with that position, I don't see how that is synonymous with, "His insistence that economic reform would solve systematic racism."
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Apr 5, 2017 18:00
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parallelodad posted:All of that was in Sanders platform as well and he spoke about it in literally every speech after he messed up at NetRoots and immediately course corrected. Greenville, SC. A rally just one week before the primary, in the first state where his success would be entirely determined by how well he could flip the African-American base. quote:We are listening to the African-American community who understand that we have a criminal justice system which is broken and today has more people in jail than any other country on earth. We have 2.2 million people in jail. [note: that's people, overall, not African-Americans] quote:And 150 or 200 years ago, whenever, African-Americans and their white allies said, "Racism and sexism and bigotry is not what this country is supposed to be about." And against all odds, they stood up and they fought back. They said that that is not what America is supposed to be about. quote:And we are also living under a broken criminal justice system. And what that means is that if some kid in South Carolina or Vermont gets picked up today for possessing marijuana, that kid will receive a police record and that record will be carried with that person for the rest of his life. quote:And youth unemployment for kids who graduated high school is off the charts. For white kids 33%, Latino kids 36%, African-American kids 51%. quote:No American - black, Latino, or white - should be fearful of walking down the street and getting shot by a police officer. Now, I have served as the mayor of the largest city in Vermont, and I've worked very hard with police officers. I believe the vast majority of police officers are honest and hardworking and have to do a very, very difficult job. But when a police officer breaks the law, like any other public official, that officer must be held accountable. I believe that we must de-militarize local police departments so they don't look like occupying armies. I believe we need to make police departments look like the communities they serve. There's a bit more about substance abuse and drug convictions (in general terms), and a brief mention of Flint, which sort of counts. That's everything from like an hour of talking. And this is while Clinton is hopping around SC, making a giant point of talking directly to the African-American community, and making a point of calling out Sanders for talking about billionaires on Wall Street as his predominant issue. People want to blame "name recognition," but this is how you lose South Carolina -- and Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and North Carolina. It won't hurt you quite as badly in the general, but it's lethal in the primary. You want a progressive candidate to take the primary, they need those states, and they need a platform that talks to minorities beyond colorblind economic populism.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:03
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Cerebral Bore posted:Look, the proposed solution won't solve racism and therefore all working-class minorities get to suck it until one that satisfies me comes along. Also have you heard about those loving Bernie Bros and their demands for ideological purity? Majorian posted:That's a bit of a crazy extrapolation. Sanders said he didn't support reparations, and while I disagree with that position, I don't see how that is synonymous with, "His insistence that economic reform would solve systematic racism." parallelodad posted:I'll give you that one but let's not pretend Clinton was in favor of reparations either.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:03
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Reparations Wait you think reparations would fix systemic racism?
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Apr 5, 2017 18:03
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Ytlaya posted:My feeling is that it's best to put a lot of effort into stopping and deterring this sort of thing behind the scenes, but that it isn't a good idea to turn it into a key political talking point (much less a defense when people attempt to discuss other mistakes made during the election). If we are in the midst of an election, and this poo poo is happening to us, we should absolutely make it a huge political issue, whether or not the republicans were in on it. If the republicans collude with a foreign power to win an election, we should absolutely make a huge deal about it, even if we only find out after we've lost. One of the mistakes some of us made during the election was dismissing the accurate warnings our nominee gave us about foreign efforts to divide our coalition and support our opponents. quote:I disagree heavily with JC's assumption that Putin will give any fucks about a bunch of random Americans thinking he interfered in the election. I don't think I made that assertion. I suggested Putin would care if the CIA hacked his secrets and disseminated them to the Russian public to destroy his image and credibility.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:04
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:He didn't support reparations because his economic policies would be the solution to racism iirc. and hillary didn't support reparations cause????
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Apr 5, 2017 18:04
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:There's no such thing as "progress" unless it assists those who need it the most, else you're just reaffirming existing power structure. Broad help for the working class, as well as more targeted programs that help working class minorities overcome (or at least partially overcome) structural inequality, are not mutually exclusive. Once again, you are part of the problem for treating them as such.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:04
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:Wait you think reparations would fix systemic racism? christ you need to read, that's when he affirmed economics => 0 racism.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:06
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:He didn't support reparations because his economic policies would be the solution to racism iirc. That's not at all what he said. This was his answer: quote:No, I don’t think so. First of all, its likelihood of getting through Congress is nil. Second of all, I think it would be very divisive. The real issue is when we look at the poverty rate among the African American community, when we look at the high unemployment rate within the African American community, we have a lot of work to do. I don't agree with that answer; I'm in favor of reparations. But his answer isn't evidence that he believes left-populist economic policy is the solution to everything.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:09
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Raise the min wage, it's fine, but don't wave it under a "progressive" flag, it will not address racism in any way shape or form. That's a massive issue that you're ignoring. Well gee, maybe you can do more than one thing at once? And maybe racism also has a massive economic component which isn't going to go away by sticking to the same failed neoliberal dogma that shits all over the poor (and hence disproportionately on African-Americans)?
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Apr 5, 2017 18:09
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guys, i think we gotta admit that hillary was just really good on racial justice i mean, she 
Condiv fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 18:09
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She's your abuela.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:11
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Hmm, what did Obama do to address the issues of African Americans?quote:The Obama administration never gave serious consideration to aggressive transformative universal policies like a public-sector employment guarantee for all Americans, a federally financed trust fund for all newborn infants with amounts dictated by a child’s parents’ wealth position, or the provision of gifted-quality education for all children. These are universal programs that can have a significant “disproportionate impact and benefit for African Americans,” in the process of helping all Americans—unlike the types of universal programs endorsed by the president. So Hillary's predecessor failed at directly addressing the problems of the AA community, and she was running as his 3rd term. Bernie might have failed the same way, but at least he was aggressive about tackling general income inequality. Obama and moderates have not only ignored black people, they haven't even seriously pursued universal redistribution policies that would give black people some breathing room. Frijolero fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 18:19
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Majorian posted:That's not at all what he said. This was his answer: Its refreshing to see Sanders express concern about the need for policies that can actually pass in congress and the possibility that there could be a white backlash against handouts to POC but it's weird that he only has these concerns about reparations and not like the majority of his policy positions.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:20
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JeffersonClay posted:Its refreshing to see Sanders express concern about the need for policies that can actually pass in congress and the possibility that there could be a white backlash against handouts to POC but it's weird that he only has these concerns about reparations and not like the majority of his policy positions. because he actually thinks his policies can pass congress? especially if those policies are pushed seriously by the dem party instead of hiding from them? btw JC, do you actually support reparations?
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Apr 5, 2017 18:27
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JeffersonClay posted:Its refreshing to see Sanders express concern about the need for policies that can actually pass in congress and the possibility that there could be a white backlash against handouts to POC but it's weird that he only has these concerns about reparations and not like the majority of his policy positions. Any examples? Also take note that I've never denied that racial resentment played a role in 2016, just that it played the pivotal role in former Obama supporters defecting to Trump in the '08-'12 blue states that swung red.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:27
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