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Who What Now posted:lol, you're accusing people of not reading the bible when you haven't even read Matthew 5:18. Also, every single other reference in the New Testament by Paul and others talking about how Christians ought to study the Old Testament Scriptures in order to better appreciate the teachings of Apostles when they meet them. Granted, that doesn't work out so well millenia down the road when all Apostles are dead and God apparently doesn't see fit to anoint any more, but whatever. EDITING for the Fat Dog rule: 
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Apr 5, 2017 14:27
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I can't tell whether forums poster hog fat is a Christian.
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Apr 5, 2017 14:29
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hog fat posted:furthermore, criticizing Jesus for what others do in His name is about as coherent as every single post you've made in this thread Meanwhile, the New Testament repeatedly states that Christians are essentially Ambassadors of God and every action they take is a reflection on Christ (Paul literally states in a couple of his letters that Christians will be judged for any souls that end up damned as a result of their actions). If these other branches of Christianity you claim exist actually exist, they are doing a lovely job of following the Great Commission.
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Apr 5, 2017 14:34
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I can't tell whether forums poster hog fat is a Christian. I can, but the kind of Christian he is yelling at other people at, for mentioning them.
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Apr 5, 2017 14:39
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hog fat posted:another incredibly lovely post. I'm gonna argue at a level you have the capacity to understand: go volunteer literally anywhere, talk to your fellow volunteers then make a note of how many of them espouse Christian faith. Despite these "donations" and "volunteering" you'll find that the line Christianity creates tugs pulls heavily towards reaction. I don't care if someone gives money or volunteers to a massively inefficient charity when they are actively opposing better run systems that would actually fix the problem. We talked about it pretty extensively earlier in the thread, but "feel good bullshit" isn't the same as actual effective action.  A "good Christian" doing "charity".
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Apr 5, 2017 16:27
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hog fat posted:another incredibly lovely post. I'm gonna argue at a level you have the capacity to understand: go volunteer literally anywhere, talk to your fellow volunteers then make a note of how many of them espouse Christian faith. Meanwhile, in the real world, churches not doing their job regarding charity work are the reason why we even have to have social welfare programs funded by tax dollars.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:31
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hog fat posted:you've narrowly defined religion to mean 'the organized religions practiced by uneducated Southerners' which are not even religions but weird cultural vestiges of Antebellum. Go to any Church in any 'progressive' city and you'll find that my view is the majority one. The majority view still seems to trend conservative which in it self is enough for leftists to oppose it. In the context of this thread it also doesn't really matter if the majority view is cool and good, were we to accept that, if the minority views cause more social harm on balance. Anyway,, if the OT is null and void Christians should stop confusing the issue by constantly bringing up the Ten Commandments.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:40
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It's not even that the left is hostile to religion. Liberation theology, etc. works just fine. It's that religion is hostile to leftism. But because they are cowards, they project their hostility onto others. Even the most strident critic of religion in this thread (and I count myself among them) has said that whatever people want to do in private is cool. Religion is still creepy, wrong and belongs in the dustbin of history but as long as it's private nobody really cares. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of organized religions having organized mass executions of leftists. This ain't comparing "like to like".
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Apr 5, 2017 16:59
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can any of you religious apologists explain how exactly it is that sun wukong didnt know he was standing on the Buddha's palm? like is he so stupid he didnt realize the ground was flesh or is the Buddha's palm all covered in dirt and grass and poo poo? religion is so dumb
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Apr 5, 2017 17:48
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with regards to all of your asinine questions and retorts to my incredibly lucid postings on Gospel, I will no longer deign to reply individually. let this stand at my official mea culpa; trying to convince a tree the sky is blue is an incredibly fruitless pursuit. instead of posturing as intellectuals, which all of you silly liberals revel inso doing, try and actually become one. read the 150 page book written by the great author, Tolstoy, and see the passages for yourself. Also, if you think volunteering at a soup kitchen is beneath you, you're subhuman trash. Not only do many feeds hundreds of people a day; including the one I volunteer at regularly, but you offer the even greater gift of compassion to the wretched, meek undesirables. So keep donating to your baby-murdering organizations and which are even less efficient; keep donating to the hate group that is the SPLC as if by giving the money you'd all squander on Star Trek figurines like literal children is somehow virtuous. I'll be exercising nonjudgemental compassion like the selfsame Christ who washed the feet of his betrayer. I have to hit the gym so when the country splits I'm ready to bash some skulls. Peace.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:33
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Nice meltdown.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:34
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Religion is a good thing FOR ME TO POOP ON! Charity is fine and cool and good, but it's kinda weird if you need an all-powerful being to inspire however many people to write a book telling you not to be a dick to the homeless.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:41
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Shbobdb posted:Nice meltdown. We'll see whose melting down when I've headlocked you into submission and am giving you noogies because you're an obese man with T. rex arms who posts John Oliver-derivative poo poo all day.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:43
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hog fat posted:We'll see whose melting down when I've headlocked you into submission and am giving you noogies because you're an obese man with T. rex arms who posts John Oliver-derivative poo poo all day. ....wow, calm down dude. This is very hostile.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:44
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hog fat posted:We'll see whose melting down when I've headlocked you into submission and am giving you noogies because you're an obese man with T. rex arms who posts John Oliver-derivative poo poo all day. GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS! I AM A SIXTH DAN BLACKBELT IN KARATE. I WILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND CRUSH YOUR SKULL! ANY DAY, ANY TIME!
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Apr 5, 2017 18:46
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My God can beat up your dad.
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Apr 5, 2017 18:47
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KillerQueen posted:My God can beat up your dad. But can god create a dad so powerful that not even he can beat him up?
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Apr 5, 2017 19:53
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CommieGIR posted:....wow, calm down dude. This is very hostile. He's been this way since he showed up. Considering the subject, it's a 50/50 on being a troll or just that deranged.
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Apr 5, 2017 19:54
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Alhazred posted:But can god create a dad so powerful that not even he can beat him up? Nonsense, we're talking about a God that was such a powerful dad he had to kill his own son to forgive total strangers for things they did to offend him.
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Apr 5, 2017 20:07
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hog fat posted:*doesn't believe in God because of the actions of other people* Religious people are so irrational. For science! I know you're probably trolling, but it should be pointed out that science does directly conflate with religious claims. This is occurring at a fundamental level every year that rolls on that fails to find any evidence of the supernatural. Science has revealed startling truths about the natural world that essentially throws the entirety of religion out the window, whether or not people want to accept that. Let's start at an extremely small level. Atoms (and their subatomic particles), exist. This is proven in a variety of ways and is no longer a debatable fact. These elements bond together to form molecules, and those molecules can band together to form large structures that are visible to the human eye. We know the source of these atoms was originally the Big Bang, which is absolutely nothing like what is described in ancient religious texts no matter how much you try to stretch the metaphors. We can date the universe back to the singularity with enough accuracy that we know our universe is billions of years old. We know that over the course of those billions of years, gravity (or a similar force) pulled matter together to form starts, planets, and other celestial objects. Those celestial objects were pulled into systems ranging from solar systems to galaxies to galaxy clusters. The scale of the size of our small solar system alone is difficult to grasp, and we are one solar system of hundreds of millions of starts in one of hundreds of millions of galaxies. We know that life can be found dating back over a billion years on Earth. We know that life branched out from single celled organisms into the variety of life that exists today. We know that this process happened through the mechanism of evolution. We know that humans are a part of this chain, and we can trace significant parts of our own ancestry. We know that we developed from small rodent like mammals in the time of the dinosaurs tens of millions of years ago. We know that early apes branched out into early hominids, our ancestors such as Homo Habilus and Homo Erectus. We know this was occurring some 500,000 to 100,000 years, where various hominid species either cross bred, exterminated each other, or were wiped out completely from other natural pressures. We know these ancient hominids (and our ape cousins alive today) perform ritualistic actions, especially surrounding death of one of their tribe. Neanderthals performed ceremonial burials complete with totems and drawings, and they aren't even technically "humans". Given all these truths we have discovered about the natural world, where does the supernatural part come in? Where did souls come in? Have souls existed in every single life form that has ever formed? Does this include things like viruses that are difficult to classify as living? Where is the soul in our body? Does it influence the brain, or any other organ? The most fundamental aspects of Christianity and essentially every religion requires a soul of some sort, and there is absolutely no evidence that any such thing exists. After you've considered the facts of the natural world makes religious claims objectively false, examining how religions affect their practitioners is a perfectly valid criticism. If none of the spiritual claims can be true, maybe the influence of seeking God might have a positive effect on individuals and society and give some credence to a positive divine influence. When even that avenue turns out to be fruitless because religious people trend conservative and reactionary across the world, than its just another nail in the coffin of the question of the existence God and the consequences of faith.
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Apr 5, 2017 20:34
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It's ahistorical to think of religions as making positive claims on scientific knowledge. Prior to modernity, you can't really separate "fact" from "value" but in the modern world these two concepts are entirely distinct. Some modern religious movements (like Evangelical fundamentalism) have doubled down on "value" at the expense of "fact" but so what? I'm less concerned with whether the Bible accurately describes pi to the nth digit. I'm much more concerned with the moral messages it contains and its ability to help people lead a good life. By the metrics being discussed in this thread, Christianity fails miserably. Not because it is in contradiction with science but because it is in contradiction with human nature and the result is deformed half-human monsters that actively seek to harm society in the name of their dangerous ideology.
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Apr 5, 2017 20:39
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Alhazred posted:But can god create a dad so powerful that not even he can beat him up? Yes, but then He'd pound the gently caress out of him anyway.
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Apr 5, 2017 21:38
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RasperFat posted:I know you're probably trolling, but it should be pointed out that science does directly conflate with religious claims. I didn't read past the first sentence of this post, nor shall I, but science cannot prove or disprove metaphysical claims. e: okay I skimmed, and you're right. There is no soul, there is no free will (determinism) and the self is a construct. That doesn't change the fact that God exists, that we are his progeny and that we are mandated to fulfill his will.
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Apr 5, 2017 22:15
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hog fat posted:I didn't read past the first sentence of this post, nor shall I, but science cannot prove or disprove metaphysical claims. If there's no soul, what would incentivize us to fulfill God's will? The soul is what supposedly goes on to the afterlife and either eternal reward or damnation. If there's no soul, that part surely can't be true, either. If there's no free will, then whether one chooses to fulfill God's will is already decided and completely out of any individual's control, so why try so hard to convince people that we are mandated to fulfill God's will if there's nothing anyone can do about it?
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Apr 5, 2017 22:51
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Nonsense, we're talking about a God that was such a powerful dad he had to kill his own son to forgive total strangers for things they did to offend him. He didn't have to, that's the central teaching of Christianity, God gave up His only son to show much He loved humanity, "for there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend". It's a debtor clearing the slate for those in debt to him, who could never do that on their own because they've borrowed far too much (sinned). And according to Judaic and Christian teachings, humans are not total strangers, God knows each and every one of them, "before you were formed in the womb I knew you", and all that. shbobdb posted:
Yes, because teachings like "Love your enemies", "Forgive them not 7 times but 70 times 7", and "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend", are truly immoral and harmful things for a society. You are right those sorts of teachings are in contradiction with human nature, but I'd rather have humans doing those things than just being normal selfish people. I've tried to avoid this thread as much as possible, because I knew it would basically go like this "Of course the Left doesn't hate religion, religion is just an irrational and immoral and unconscious-able system we would all be better off without! Why would you think the Left hates religion?" I can see my prediction unfortunately was pretty spot-on. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 23:00
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Yes, because teachings like "Love your enemies", "Forgive them not 7 times but 70 times 7", and "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend", are truly immoral and harmful things for a society. You are right those sorts of teachings are in contradiction with human nature, but I'd rather have humans doing those things than just being normal selfish people. Those aren't actually the lessons that Christianity teaches though. Abstracting a religion from its followers is a poor method of analysis.
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Apr 5, 2017 23:21
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Harrow posted:If there's no soul, what would incentivize us to fulfill God's will? The soul is what supposedly goes on to the afterlife and either eternal reward or damnation. If there's no soul, that part surely can't be true, either. 1) virtue is its own reward. you think that just because there's a God there's an afterlife? shows how little you know about Christianity. 2) many good people are deprived of God's word. those are the people who should be appealed to.
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Apr 5, 2017 23:26
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:He didn't have to, that's the central teaching of Christianity, God gave up His only son to show much He loved humanity, "for there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend". It's a debtor clearing the slate for those in debt to him, who could never do that on their own because they've borrowed far too much (sinned). If God loves us then why would he care about our debts and require a human "sacrifice" in order to forgive us? Why not just forgive us from the start? That's granting that what God views as "sins" are actually wrong. Thankfully we're moving away from God's morality of hating gay people and keeping slaves.
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Apr 5, 2017 23:59
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Who What Now posted:If God loves us then why would he care about our debts and require a human "sacrifice" in order to forgive us? Why not just forgive us from the start? He does forgive us from the start and the common read on penal substitutionary atonement is not good.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:13
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hog fat posted:I didn't read past the first sentence of this post, nor shall I, but science cannot prove or disprove metaphysical claims. I'm happy you decided to actually read the argument, accept it, then toss out all of the implications. Science can disprove many metaphysical claims, it's just uncomfortable to think about for a religious minded person. Every metaphysical claim requires that a supernatural force exerts change on the natural world. While it's not possible to prove that supernatural events can never occur, we have solid evidence against the specific claims that have been made. Creationism? Disproven. Celestial spheres? Disproven. Ether? Disproven. World wide flood? Disproven. Eternal soul? Zero evidence for it and probably doesn't exist. If it's materially accepted that there is no actual soul, than the entirety of Christianity falls apart. If people are a natural product of evolution, the entire idea of sin is bunk. Without a soul, there is no "salvation" for it. Jesus can't save you if you don't have a soul to save in the first place. I don't reject the possibility of a god, but there's no evidence to suggest there actually is one. Problematically, even if such a powerful being existed, it would have to function like the Diest god, just pressing the start button and not interfering. It doesn't give two shits about humans or our tiny little planet in the corner of our tiny little galaxy. We are on our own and should expect zero guidance or help from any supernatural being. You'd be functionally secular at this point anyway because that god's intent is unknowable and the being would be unreachable, so you have only the natural world and fellow humans to look to for answers.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:16
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Creationism in the absolute sense has not been disproven, just one popular version of it. Absence of evidence does not confer evidence of absence, so your soul argument is tantamount to gibberish. Furthermore, consciousness seems like the greatest argument for God left. Where does it come from? Why are we conscious? Where is your paltry science now?
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Apr 6, 2017 00:29
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Please stop addressing hog fat, he's just a loving troll.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:50
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hog fat posted:Creationism in the absolute sense has not been disproven, just one popular version of it. In the absolute "Prima Mobile" sense, of course not that's an unanswerable question. The specific iterations of creationism understood by specific religions are disprovable though. The world is not on the back of giant turtle, wasn't the consequence of dueling cosmic entities, nor did the Israeli war god named Yahweh will it into existence. We can confidently state that the the creation claims from religions are probably false. Unlike searching for a hypothetical creator of everything, the soul does have specific evidence disproving its existence. The soul is contains elements of personality. The soul is something that can be influenced that affects people's actions. We have biological evidence that contradicts these fundamental assumptions. It's not that there's absence of evidence, it's that there is evidence showing that the soul does not do these things. Personality is proven to reside entirely within our brain functions, as well as what drives actions. Though now seen as barbaric, we used to change people's personalities all the time by cutting into their brain. We can influence people's actions by introducing specific chemicals into the brain. All of the evidence points to the physical brain being responsible for our personalities and actions, meaning that the soul is proven to be something that is not driving personality or action. We are conscious because it is an evolutionary advantage to be able to monitor your environment and plan for the future. It's an incredibly powerful survival tool that had developed through millions and millions and millions of years of selective pressure. Where we divide consciousness is mostly arbitrary and is ill defined. Do gorillas that make and remember human friends have consciousness? Does an orca making mourning calls after the death of its family member consciously ease its grief? Do meerkats building networks of lookouts and burrows consciously protect each other? Do spiders building traps consciously analyze their work? Do plants consciously move towards the sun or trap insects for survival consciously? We can probably rule out consciousness from life forms lacking a central nervous system, because they appear to be entirely reflexive actions without a cognitive process. So probably no plant thoughts. But what about insects? They have tiny nervous systems and seem to have almost no intelligence, but can still build intricate traps. Probably not conscious because they seem to run almost purely on instinct. When we get to small mammals, it gets a lot trickier. Mice can solve maze puzzles and many small mammals show basic parallels to human emotions like affection and anger. Probably have low level consciousness. The intelligent marine mammals are even more difficult to categorize as not being conscious. They form groups with bonds that last for decades, do things apparently just for the fun of it, and even have rudimentary language in their clicks and whistles. They display a wide range of emotions. They are almost certainly conscious in the same way humans are. Monkeys and apes undoubtedly have the cognitive capacities to be conscious. They can use tools, language, have tribes, perform rituals, and appear to have a emotions that are almost parallel to the human experience ranging from love to hate to jealousy to anger to happiness to anxiousness. Consciousness is something that can be explained easily as a development of evolution and is also something that is not unique to humans. It's not really evidence for anything supernatural.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:34
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hog fat posted:It's not a question of the fact of Moses existence, you ignorant slobs, but rather the teachings of the OT. And yes, they are clearly disavowed in the Gospel. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Bitch.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:18
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Who What Now posted:If God loves us then why would he care about our debts and require a human "sacrifice" in order to forgive us? Why not just forgive us from the start? Sin is not simply angering God but separating ourselves from God. Mortal sin is a complete breaching with God. As free creatures we choose whether to follow God's ways or to separate from Him, through sinful acts. God can surely forgive us whenever he wants, but automatically forgiving us would override our free will. God wants us to want Him, God is not going to force us to love Him, because that would disrespect our free will He granted us. There's a good video on this very topic where someone suggests at the moment of death God will make sure that you love Him and want to be with Him, AKA automatic forgiveness and getting into Heaven, and why that's wrong. I can't find the youtube link itself so here is their website if you'd like to learn more. God sacrifices His only Son to say "See? This is how much I love and want you, I am willing to die for you. And not just die but go through absolute torture and mutilation for you. But I still won't force you, I won't fight back." quote:That's granting that what God views as "sins" are actually wrong. Thankfully we're moving away from God's morality of hating gay people and keeping slaves. Well if you literally disagree with what God declares are sins there's really nothing to be said here. I mean, if you believe in God who are you to argue? I f you don't, then I guess there's nothing to convince you any Christian teachings are right then. FYI, God doesn't hate gay people nor condone what we understand as slavery. He condemns and forbids acts of sexual immorality, which anyone can commit, and I guarantee you there are a lot more straight people right now in trouble for acts of sexual immorality than gay people. The slavery of the Jewish people in the Old Testament is much more akin to what we understand as indentured servitude, a period of 7 years where a person is bound to another, lives in their home, and eventually is given back their freedom. The Book of Deuteronomy has codified laws on this that explains terms of service and such. Bolocko posted:He does forgive us from the start and the common read on penal substitutionary atonement is not good. Huh, learn something new every day, you have led me to learn a little more on my faith and the semantics, I really appreciate that. Got to stay away from the Calvinist stuff. Monglo posted:"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Judaism and Christianity are revealed religions, which mean that over time, more is understood of the original teaching, like how an acorn becomes a tree, and each year we see more of the tree and understand just what a tree is a little better. So to is it with God's law and commandments.
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Apr 6, 2017 10:36
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:God sacrifices His only Son to say "See? This is how much I love and want you, I am willing to die for you. And not just die but go through absolute torture and mutilation for you. But I still won't force you, I won't fight back." Hey, Jesus actually went through very little torture and mutilation, comparatively. There are many many more people who suffered more than Jesus, who had an alright life for all but the very last day of it, and even then there were two dudes who were going through the exact same thing he was going through. Also torturing your son to show how much you love other people is a pretty lovely way to do that IMO.
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Apr 6, 2017 10:49
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It's also not really death if you're resurrected. We would not revere the men who dive on grenades for their buddies if they just respawned at the barracks like some kind of video game. In any case, "God's only son" is bizarre because God can make as many sons as he wants. He's omnipotent. He does what he wants, thusly he doesn't 'have' to do anything. We can only look at his actions as a bizarre pantomime of life.
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Apr 6, 2017 11:38
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:The slavery of the Jewish people in the Old Testament is much more akin to what we understand as indentured servitude, a period of 7 years where a person is bound to another, lives in their home, and eventually is given back their freedom. The Book of Deuteronomy has codified laws on this that explains terms of service and such. Do you believe indentured servitude is good?
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Apr 6, 2017 11:45
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:God sacrifices His only Son to say "See? This is how much I love and want you, I am willing to die for you. And not just die but go through absolute torture and mutilation for you. But I still won't force you, I won't fight back." Kind of hosed up to confuse someone murdering their own son as an act of love for someone else, don't you think? Also, as far as torture goes, the Romans were hobbyists and Jesus didn't go through anything near as epic as people like to claim. Everything Christians like to point at that Jesus went through? They have literally done worse to "heretics" over the years. Google the terms "Sawing" (may have to include "execution of heretics" to get relevant results to this one), "Judas Cradle", "Breaking Wheel", "Flaying Alive", "Hanging, drawing and Quartering" & "The Head Crusher". Don't forget the time-honored favorite "Burning at the Stake". Also? None of the Christians that executed heretics using the methods above did it out of any sort of love, and if God really did sacrifice his son it wasn't out of love either.
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Apr 6, 2017 14:19
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Sin is not simply angering God but separating ourselves from God. Mortal sin is a complete breaching with God. As free creatures we choose whether to follow God's ways or to separate from Him, through sinful acts. God can surely forgive us whenever he wants, but automatically forgiving us would override our free will. God wants us to want Him, God is not going to force us to love Him, because that would disrespect our free will He granted us. There's a good video on this very topic where someone suggests at the moment of death God will make sure that you love Him and want to be with Him, AKA automatic forgiveness and getting into Heaven, and why that's wrong. I can't find the youtube link itself so here is their website if you'd like to learn more. First, how do you define free will and how do you know (or why do you believe) you have it? Why is it important that free will not be violated? What actually constitutes a violation of free will? And, as others have pointed out Jesus got off pretty easy compared to some other people throughout history. And unlike them he got to come back to life and be an omnipotent god. That seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, hardly a sacrifice at all. quote:Well if you literally disagree with what God declares are sins there's really nothing to be said here. I mean, if you believe in God who are you to argue? I'm a thinking, moral person, so that's who I am to argue. Everybody should question their morality because that's the only way to actually understand it. If you just accept it unthinkingly then you're really no better than a robot and you're wasting the free will that God gave you. quote:FYI, God doesn't hate gay people nor condone what we understand as slavery. He condemns and forbids acts of sexual immorality, which anyone can commit, and I guarantee you there are a lot more straight people right now in trouble for acts of sexual immorality than gay people. Yes, yes, he hates the sin and loves the sinner. The problem is that homosexual people don't have any way to express their love to one another that isn't a sin, leaving them with the options of celibacy or being something that they aren't, all over something that isn't just harmless but is actively positive. quote:The slavery of the Jewish people in the Old Testament is much more akin to what we understand as indentured servitude, a period of 7 years where a person is bound to another, lives in their home, and eventually is given back their freedom. The Book of Deuteronomy has codified laws on this that explains terms of service and such. You're leaving out some key details here, like that the "indentured servitude" (which is still morally wrong, btw) only applies to Jewish men. Jewish women and non-jews were actual slaves, they were considered property of their owners for life and could be passed down to the owner's children. Sure, maybe it wasn't exactly as bad as American slavery, but it was still slavery all the same. I've never understood why anybody would ever try to defend the slavery of the bible, especially by saying "Oh, it wasn't that bad". As if that somehow made it ok. Its fine to just admit that it was hosed up and morally wrong to own slaves of any kind at any time. It's more than fine, even, it's the right thing to do!
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Apr 6, 2017 14:32
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