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precision posted:Why is everyone mad about the trans character in Andromeda but not the one in Zelda? Is this accurate? How is that worse? Its a trans woman, not a trans man. You have to use the appropriate gender to progress, not the wrong one. Using the wrong one shuts you down. I think you have this backwards?
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Apr 6, 2017 00:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQuIvDphAAc hi everyone
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Apr 6, 2017 00:33
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Zaphod42 posted:How is that worse? Its a trans woman, not a trans man. You have to use the appropriate gender to progress, not the wrong one. Using the wrong one shuts you down. I think you have this backwards? The part that sounds bad is that you "have to" compliment her.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:33
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precision posted:The part that sounds bad is that you "have to" compliment her. ... you're weird. I mean Zelda's hardly the most progressive and there are issues with it, but its definitely less "wrong" than Andromeda.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:34
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precision posted:The part that sounds bad is that you "have to" compliment her. The reason you "have to" compliment her is because she's secretly selling clothes that'll let you dress up as a woman to get into Gerudo City. That said, if you have a problem with the game despite having not played it or seen the context then Zaphod42 posted:... you're weird.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:36
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Zaphod42 posted:... you're weird.  That's at best clumsy, at worst cringeworthy.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:40
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If you really care, here's an analysis by a trans woman. http://www.polygon.com/2017/3/21/15004956/zelda-mass-effect-horizon-zero-dawn-trans-characters precision posted:That's at best clumsy, at worst cringeworthy. Its basic dumb RPG conversation man, what the gently caress do you want? Its a binary choice, you're just affirming your past entry once again, because that's how Zelda goes sometimes, and because she's playing coy. Your other option is "you're a man!" so its just once again continuing to use the right response. Your overreaction to this is way more cringeworthy than the game is.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:41
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Zaphod42 posted:... you're weird. It's a different kind of wrong.They're both wrong. In Andromeda, it just dumps the dialog on you in an unnatural way and is like the character wearing a trans nametag, which is dumb. In Zelda, it's playing up appearance and beauty for passing and furthering the plot in a very anachronistic way. I'm not sure what precision's take on it was but that's my take.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:41
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an actual dog posted:Plague Knight is one of my favorite platformers ever. Same here
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Apr 6, 2017 00:41
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bloodychill posted:It's a different kind of wrong.They're both wrong. In Andromeda, it just dumps the dialog on you in an unnatural way and is like the character wearing a trans nametag, which is dumb. In Zelda, it's playing up appearance and beauty for passing and furthering the plot in a very anachronistic way. I'm not sure what precision's take on it was but that's my take. No, that's what I meant, thank you.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:42
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Ciaphas posted:Specter Knight has more than made up for how meh Plague Knight felt You're wrong to think Plague Knight was meh, his control scheme remains my favorite of the three.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:43
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Ciaphas posted:Are YCG still doing that thing in the Shovel Knight expansions where the game could conceivably run on an NES (except for like one color added to the palette or something), or did they bail on that conceit The NES thing was a design philosophy more than a true limitation they imposed on themselves and yes, the audio was one area where they made it richer. One thing I remember from the article was that the NES would drop channels or tracks when it needed to maintain overall performance but they decided they didn't want to compromise on the music in that way.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:43
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bloodychill posted:It's a different kind of wrong.They're both wrong. In Andromeda, it just dumps the dialog on you in an unnatural way and is like the character wearing a trans nametag, which is dumb. In Zelda, it's playing up appearance and beauty for passing and furthering the plot in a very anachronistic way. I'm not sure what precision's take on it was but that's my take. It goes both ways. Like I linked, the polygon article actually breaks it down pretty well: quote:Let’s get a few things out the way. Yes, this woman has a beard under her veil. Link finding this out when a stray gust of wind reveals is played as a punchline. Link reacts in shock. It reeks of ‘90s trans-reveal comedy punchlines. So its so-so. I guess arguing about whether its "better" or "worse" than another awkward mistake is just down to personal opinion, but I think Andromeda is more directly cringey by far. Saying she's beautiful doesn't have to mean that you're conflating passing with being attractive. It can also be the direct opposite, affirming that beauty is inward and not based on outward appearance, since the character isn't actually passing and you have to say she's beautiful anyways. Its not exactly black and white, but it is clumsy I agree.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:45
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Alright see y'all in May
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Apr 6, 2017 00:46
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Ciaphas posted:Are YCG still doing that thing in the Shovel Knight expansions where the game could conceivably run on an NES (except for like one color added to the palette or something), or did they bail on that conceit They dropped that really early in development. In addition to really obvious things like being widescreen, it has way too many colors on screen at once, has too many colors to work with in the first place, bypasses the limitations of the sound chip completely, etc. They realized very early on that they needed to compromise to make the game as good as it deserved to be.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:48
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Zaphod42 posted:So its so-so. I guess arguing about whether its "better" or "worse" than another awkward mistake is just down to personal opinion, but I think Andromeda is more directly cringey by far. Fair enough. The writer makes a great case for why each had problems and how they could have improved, like actually talking to trans people in constructing the character like one of the writers for DA:I did.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:50
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it is frustrating to not have great trans representation in video games but even the decent examples like in technobabylon still have this awkward infodump aspect to it. but that game doesn't have the problem that most attempts have, which is, the characters' personality is always "they're trans" and that's it one way of that not being a problem is if they're not simply relegated to an NPC and as a result have to be actually carefully crafted as a character. i mean that still takes effort and consultancy and learning of course, but no matter what the context, NPC #425 is not going to get the attention or love that Main Character #2 gets The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 00:53
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I liked that character in Horizon because his bigger personality thing was that he didn't believe in second chances so the emperor sent them to run a prison with the express directive that reform was the objective. There was still some info dump though.
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Apr 6, 2017 00:58
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Maybe a bunch of NPCs in games are transgender or transsexual, they just don't mention it because it doesn't matter, right now they just manage the item shop
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Apr 6, 2017 01:03
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I somehow went from having really dumb  opinions about the transgendered as a teen to being pretty informed on the subject through the sheer happenstance of a bunch of my friends and acquaintances coming out as trans. I feel like any of their stories would make for a pretty compelling minor character in a video game, and I don't see why it seems so difficult for AAA studios to get it right.Not that other mediums have the best track record either.... 
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Apr 6, 2017 01:03
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Jay Rust posted:Maybe a bunch of NPCs in games are transgender or transsexual, they just don't mention it because it doesn't matter, right now they just manage the item shop birdo
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Apr 6, 2017 01:06
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The Sims 4 figured at least some of this stuff out.
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Apr 6, 2017 01:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1qnRv-fuxQ&t=18s Learning that you can accuse people of lying at every opportunity with zero actual penalty so long as you back down without presenting evidence has doubled my enjoyment of L.A. Noire. Guy Mann fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 01:09
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Jay Rust posted:Maybe a bunch of NPCs in games are transgender or transsexual, they just don't mention it because it doesn't matter, right now they just manage the item shop everyone has gone through a life of experiences that shapes who they are, saying someone is gay or trans after the fact is almost like a cop out to not have to do that. but when a character in a game is NPC #593, the writers don't even get into that aspect of character building because they're just an NPC who doesn't matter in the big picture of the game world
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Apr 6, 2017 01:14
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Guy Mann posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1qnRv-fuxQ&t=18s I still can't believe the decision to change "go easy" and "press them" or whatever into "truth" and "doubt" at the last minute. That made the game so loving confusing.
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Apr 6, 2017 01:14
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Quest For Glory II posted:there has to be a middle ground somewhere between "shots of putting on lipstick as I'm Every Woman plays" and "you decide for yourself if they are" Yeah you're right. But I also think it'd be weird if the next Bioware game had one and exactly one trans companion, not a fan of tokenism
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Apr 6, 2017 01:27
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Quest For Glory II posted:it is frustrating to not have great trans representation in video games but even the decent examples like in technobabylon still have this awkward infodump aspect to it. but that game doesn't have the problem that most attempts have, which is, the characters' personality is always "they're trans" and that's it Yeah, but the problem is lots of people are still really uncomfortable or straight up antagonistic towards transpeople, so they'll be relegated to NPCs for awhile  But there's a strong argument that having lots of gay characters on TV helped get the states to come around overall to gay rights, it lets people become more comfortable with things they're uncomfortable with from the safety of their own couch. And if you include it in some media (show, film, game) that the person likes, it can help influence their perspective of those minorities. Jay Rust posted:Maybe a bunch of NPCs in games are transgender or transsexual, they just don't mention it because it doesn't matter, right now they just manage the item shop The Dumbledore approach?
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Apr 6, 2017 01:56
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Yeah, and gay characters on TV in a good light and not just complete stereotypes feels like something that happened entirely in the last decade. I guess almost 2 decades. It feels like we've come such a long way though. Like 2 shows I'm watching now both had characters (not major ones) who just happened to be gay and it wasn't some kind of plot point and was treated as entirely normal by every other character.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:03
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Apr 6, 2017 02:05
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Snak posted:Yeah, and gay characters on TV in a good light and not just complete stereotypes feels like something that happened entirely in the last decade. I guess almost 2 decades. It feels like we've come such a long way though. Like 2 shows I'm watching now both had characters (not major ones) who just happened to be gay and it wasn't some kind of plot point and was treated as entirely normal by every other character. Does Will and Grace count as a step forward or a step back?
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Apr 6, 2017 02:10
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when Link is speaking with the person to get the vai clothes, I took the "You're beautiful!" option to not just be a compliment for the sake of progress, but that he meant it!! because he's a nice boy!
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Apr 6, 2017 02:10
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He's never called Zelda beautiful and she's his wife!!
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Apr 6, 2017 02:15
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Lurdiak posted:Does Will and Grace count as a step forward or a step back? I never watched Will and Grace, or a whole lot of 90s TV, but I was counting it in the "stereotype" column by reputation. Dawson and Buffy both did gay and lesbian (respectively) primary cast characters around the same time in the late 90s/early 00s. I'm sure they weren't the only ones to do it in that time period. There are much earlier outliers too: I know that Golden Girls did at least one episode about lesbian acceptance in season 2 (1986). I think they did more later, but I'm only halfway through season 3 right now, so I haven't gotten to them yet. It's still different from having a primary cast member though.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:17
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Jay Rust posted:He's never called Zelda beautiful and she's his wife!! Link's wife is clearly Mipha please do not sully this thread with your untruths
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Apr 6, 2017 02:20
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please don't sexualize Link
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Apr 6, 2017 02:28
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Lurdiak posted:Does Will and Grace count as a step forward or a step back? It's been a long learning process. I remember the chatter during that show's run about Jack being a total stereotype, but still valuable because there were so few examples of representation that were on network TV every week. It's like how Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was such a big thing but now that Netflix wants to remake it everyone is rolling their eyes
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Apr 6, 2017 02:32
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precision posted:please don't sexualize Link i'd let him hookshot my anchor point any time
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Apr 6, 2017 02:43
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Goddammit, next Persona game I'm naming my character Frank or something instead of a japanese name. First game I named him Ryuji, then restarted when I found out that's the name of this game's first party member so I restarted and named him Makoto. I'm way to far in to restart now that Makoto's been introduced as an NPC, guess I'm just going to be confused from now on.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:49
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Do not gently caress with Big Tetris:quote:
From NeoGaf.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:52
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:It's been a long learning process. I remember the chatter during that show's run about Jack being a total stereotype, but still valuable because there were so few examples of representation that were on network TV every week. I mean, as much as stereotypical portrayals can be bad and can set things back, I feel like portrayal of stereotypes as acceptable, good people in society is still a stepping stone. "Blaxsploitation" as an umbrella genre, contained plenty of films that reinforced stereotypes in a negative way. The term "Blaxsploitation" was coined by Junius Griffin, who was executive director of the Hollywood branch of the NAACP in 1972. He argued that these films exploited black culture and warped children's minds with violence and cultural lies. But at the same time, the existence of the economic powerhouse of the blaxsploitation genre paved the way for black film makers and created opportunities for black actors and actresses that would not have existed without that stepping stone. The Black Panthers embraced blaxsploitation films that showed strong willed black characters. James Earl Jones said "even the black exploitation movie has a role to play. The groups trying to cancel these movies are fighting a losing battle. I think there is a call for such movies. The black image is in a state of creation." That's paraphrased from Allyson Field's L.A. Rebellion: Creating a New Black Cinema But I feel like the portrayal of gay and lesbian characters in television has been following a similar trajectory from exoticism, to exploitation, to real acceptance. Trans acceptance is lagging behind, but I hope that it catches up quickly.
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Apr 6, 2017 02:54
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