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Zaphod42 posted:What fake 3D does Goof Troop have? I only played a little of it and don't remember anything. (Not that I'm doubting you) I think Goof Troop fakes depth the same way a game like Link to the Past would. Objects are checked to see if they're on the same "layer" (a tag associated with a section of the background) before the game decides if they should interact or not, or some such. Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 00:28
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Empress Brosephine posted:Hmm the one I installed automatically was the UnleashX and I'm using some Qwix program? But I'm going wired to wireless do that might be my problem. It just kind of times out. What FTP do you guys use to transfer games? Yeah if your PC is on wireless you might be losing out somewhat on performance to the Xbox. Best to stay on ethernet the whole way through.
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Apr 6, 2017 01:07
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Mak0rz posted:The backgrounds are static images but Resident Evil's objects still exist in full 3D space. Not exactly. RE's models are 3D models, but they're just rendered on a 2D plane, adjusted for position. There's no 3D camera like a modern engine would use, and it doesn't track height axis at all. Things like stairs had to be carefully positioned on the screen to hide the fact that they don't actually have a height component at all. All movement still maps to a (distorted) 2D plane, and a model's x-y position on that plane is what determines how large it's rendered and whether other objects are rendered in front of or behind it. FF7 worked the same way. In neither engine could you actually just have a model move "up" or "down" in the world. (you can still totally have models move up and down on the screen, of course.) Later games, of course, used a more fully 3D engine. Zaphod42 posted:What fake 3D does Goof Troop have? I only played a little of it and don't remember anything. (Not that I'm doubting you) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dJ69Mlcph0&t=3917s Here's a bit from a random longplay(around 1h 4m if the link doesn't jump correctly); stuff like the blades being thrown from a "higher" platform down at the ground floor. The sprite offset and hit boxes are adjusted based on an internal "height" that the camera doesn't know anything about. RE is obviously way more sophisticated, since it's doing more stuff, but the basic principle is the same: every model has an x and y position but not a z position within the engine, and everything "3d" about rendering and game logic is some kind of trick. Obviously it's not the exact same code, I'm pretty sure that was just a programmer trolling his friend, but it's the same technique. There might even have been actual code reuse, there's no real way to know.
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Apr 6, 2017 01:08
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The Goof Troop/RE connection comes from a colleague of mine who looked at the RE1 source for an (unrealized) port job years ago. He said that there's Goof Troop code in RE, not that it's the same "engine" or whatever. It could be some simple programming routines that were reused for things you wouldn't even think about, like moving a cursor around a menu or something. Anyway the new "Uncle Buck of 1990 NES games" is obviously Yo! Noid.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:01
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TheRedEye posted:Anyway the new "Uncle Buck of 1990 NES games" is obviously Yo! Noid. Digital Eclipse Presents: The Foodfight Collection Vol. 1 M.C. Kids, Yo! Noid, Spot: The Video Game, The California Raisins: The Grape Escape, and Donald Land.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:42
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TheRedEye posted:The Goof Troop/RE connection comes from a colleague of mine who looked at the RE1 source for an (unrealized) port job years ago. He said that there's Goof Troop code in RE, not that it's the same "engine" or whatever. It could be some simple programming routines that were reused for things you wouldn't even think about, like moving a cursor around a menu or something. Now that you mention it, I think I heard there were chunks of SNES ASM in the data of one of the prototypes or something and it seemed like they were there purely by accident, but I may be thinking of another game. The strangest incident of that nature that I know of is with Crusader of Centy, which has a big chunk of data from Beyond Oasis in the final ROM for whatever reason.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:54
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ROM size was set by the memory ICs or disc standard in use. If you didn't completely fill this space it would be padded out with junk data. In some cases the padding data was whatever else was in memory on the development PC (probably unintentionally) so you see unrelated unused files appearing in dumps. If there are SNES assembly listings on RE discs it's probably because the same machines were used. There's no way the assembled code could be reused unless RE1 contains a SNES emulator
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Apr 6, 2017 06:41
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TheRedEye posted:The Goof Troop/RE connection comes from a colleague of mine who looked at the RE1 source for an (unrealized) port job years ago. He said that there's Goof Troop code in RE, not that it's the same "engine" or whatever. It could be some simple programming routines that were reused for things you wouldn't even think about, like moving a cursor around a menu or something. the wizards beard posted:ROM size was set by the memory ICs or disc standard in use. If you didn't completely fill this space it would be padded out with junk data. In some cases the padding data was whatever else was in memory on the development PC (probably unintentionally) so you see unrelated unused files appearing in dumps. Huh, that's pretty interesting. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Apr 6, 2017 07:10
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Tendales posted:Not exactly. RE's models are 3D models, but they're just rendered on a 2D plane, adjusted for position. There's no 3D camera like a modern engine would use, and it doesn't track height axis at all. Things like stairs had to be carefully positioned on the screen to hide the fact that they don't actually have a height component at all. All movement still maps to a (distorted) 2D plane, and a model's x-y position on that plane is what determines how large it's rendered and whether other objects are rendered in front of or behind it. FF7 worked the same way. In neither engine could you actually just have a model move "up" or "down" in the world. (you can still totally have models move up and down on the screen, of course.) Later games, of course, used a more fully 3D engine. Eh... I kinda see what you're saying but... I dunno. You're saying its rendered on a 2D plane, adjusted for position. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? I'm mean that's basically like, the billboarding technique, which I would still consider to be a 3D engine if you're doing something like that... but I guess we're splitting hairs either way. You're saying the camera knows nothing of the height, but that doesn't matter. If the object has height and its rendered with polygons... same difference? I mean, very rarely is everything in the game's engine exactly as you'd imagine it from playing the game. But as long as its there in a form that it influences the code, its effectively there. You know what I mean? I guess you could say its as 3D as Doom. Because Doom isn't entirely proper 3D either, but at the same time it kinda is. (It generates a perspective image with depth from a 2D map and using very specific raster calls based on the room's "height" value, etc.) Its limited in how it renders rooms, in the way that resident evil has a single "depth" plane that tells the game where the image should place the character at any X/Y point. And Doom is accurately described as 2.5D, so I guess you're right. Doom doesn't even have polygons though, which is what really pushes it towards full 3D for me. TheRedEye posted:The Goof Troop/RE connection comes from a colleague of mine who looked at the RE1 source for an (unrealized) port job years ago. He said that there's Goof Troop code in RE, not that it's the same "engine" or whatever. It could be some simple programming routines that were reused for things you wouldn't even think about, like moving a cursor around a menu or something. Yeah probably just some convenient algorithms or even just a shared library. Could be as simple as some internal Capcom library, yeah. Man I'd love to look at the source code to lots of classic games. It makes me really sad that they don't open-source them, the way Carmack did with Doom and Quake and onwards. Like, if they'd release the source to Ocarina of Time, you know fans would make entire level packs for the engine, poo poo like that. Even as janky as those engines were, people would find a way. Same with SNES games even. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 07:29
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Zaphod42 posted:Eh... I kinda see what you're saying but... I dunno. You're saying its rendered on a 2D plane, adjusted for position. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? I'm mean that's basically like, the billboarding technique, which I would still consider to be a 3D engine if you're doing something like that... but I guess we're splitting hairs either way. It's kind of hard to explain, and I can't find any of the good descriptions of how it works since a google search just finds stuff about the FF7 remake engine and the RE 7 game engine. If anyone has one of those good breakdowns of how the RE and FF7 engines worked, I'd be grateful. They're really interesting reads.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:16
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You're both right. It's real time 3D rendering but the perspective is fixed and doesn't account for a Z axis. You could swap the models for 2D sprites and the canceled Gameboy game was doing exactly that. Dino Crisis and Code Veronica are true 3D.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:17
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Yeah, that's basically what I'm trying to say. The models are 3D rendered in real time, but nothing else is. The engine isn't thinking about them being arranged in a 3D space at all, beyond what angle to render the model from which is just a constant on each screen. Interestingly enough, DOOM is basically the exact opposite approach. In a raycasting engine like DOOM, you're basically mapping 2d sprites and textures onto a 3D space. Everything in the game can have (x,y,z) coordinates and volume as far as the game is concerned, even though there's no 3D models being used. DOOM didn't do much with height, but later raycasting engines like Ultima Underworld did.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:25
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Tendales posted:DOOM didn't do much with height, but later raycasting engines like Ultima Underworld did. Ultima Underworld was released over a year and a half before Doom (March 1992 and December 1993 respectively). e: It also predates Wolfenstein 3D by two months. Looking Glass was so good you guys, so loving good Veib fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 08:34
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Veib posted:Ultima Underworld was released over a year and a half before Doom (March 1992 and December 1993 respectively). I always forget that. It's so weird. More complex raycasting engine, then.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:42
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Omg framemeister is gonna be here on Monday.
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Apr 6, 2017 14:56
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The mentions of Doom, SNES and fans that can bend the engine to do things they were never supposed to do, I feel that this is relevant: https://youtu.be/aPwRG01_utg That's a Doom open source engine, Zandronium, specifically. I'm sure it's as janky to play as it seems. Edit: Video linking on the Awful app appears to be broken :/ Anyway, it's Killer Instinct recreated in the Doom engine and I don't mean KI characters shoehorned into an FPS. Instruction Manuel fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 15:15
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Speaking of Sweet Home, is the new english translation any better or should I stick to the old one?
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Apr 6, 2017 15:37
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Why is WWF Raw $73 in this 1995 Toys R Us catalog? http://dinosaurdracula.com/blog/toys-r-us-1995/
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Apr 6, 2017 18:39
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Probably additional licensing fees. In the early days of sports video games before you could get a blanket license from the league or association they'd have to individually license everyone. That's how you'd end up with "player's baseball" and all the teams are states. Thank you standardized pricing.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:45
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Dr. Dos posted:Why is WWF Raw $73 in this 1995 Toys R Us catalog? http://dinosaurdracula.com/blog/toys-r-us-1995/ Probably because it's a full 3 megabyte cartridge like Mortal Kombat II is, and the coupon you'd get just happened to be smaller than the ones available for MKII? It doesn't appear to have come with anything special, just the standard thin manual, the cartridge, and a cardboard spacer to keep it from rattling in the box. And although the Donkey Kong Country cartridge is a full 4 megabytes, Nintendo always gave themselves and their games preferential pricing on cartridge production.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:45
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Were game prices back then always that variable? I know enhancement chips jacked up the cost a bit (or a lot of you were on the market for Genesis Virtua Racing) but the prices in that pic seem all over the place.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:48
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Mak0rz posted:Were game prices back then always that variable? I know enhancement chips jacked up the cost a bit (or a lot of you were on the market for Genesis Virtua Racing) but the prices in that pic seem all over the place. Yes. ROM chips were hideously expensive for the amount they stored, and on the Nintendo side of things Nintendo would further gouge for production on top of everything else, and grant sweetheart deals to themselves and a few other random companies. Because of this, costs for a game's production could vary by a very wide range before you started accounting for the even higher costs of specialty chips in the carts. Additionally, games that weren't expected to sell well might get higher prices to pay for their components, because they couldn't be bought in higher bulk rates - which would lead to something of a self-fulfilling prophecy because then they'd cost more and be less likely to be bought.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:52
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Was it Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition that was 70-80 bones? I think that was just Capcom capitalizing on having the biggest arcade fighting game.
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Apr 6, 2017 22:50
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al-azad posted:Was it Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition that was 70-80 bones? I think that was just Capcom capitalizing on having the biggest arcade fighting game. If I remember right it was 24 megs which as we already stated memory costs were insane back then. Turbo on the SNES was 20.
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Apr 6, 2017 23:04
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Anyone have any idea what this poo poo was actually promoting? Sega published a game called The Club but this was way earlier than that best I can tell and trying to google it is nearly impossible, especially since there's apparently some band called Sega that made an album called Le Club Rhythmique. https://twitter.com/sacaitlin/status/850101534503391233
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Apr 6, 2017 23:08
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Caitlin posted:Anyone have any idea what this poo poo was actually promoting? Sega published a game called The Club but this was way earlier than that best I can tell and trying to google it is nearly impossible, especially since there's apparently some band called Sega that made an album called Le Club Rhythmique. Probably this http://maitresega.blogspot.ca/2008/10/club-sega.html
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Apr 6, 2017 23:25
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There was a Sega membership thing in France. A little bit of information on it here http://segaretro.org/Club_Sega_(France) Edit: Pretty much beaten to it.
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Apr 6, 2017 23:27
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Well that explains it.  Thanks!  e: really I just like collecting weird pins
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Apr 6, 2017 23:28
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I regret not going to Sega World back when it was in Darling Harbour. I'm sure it wasn't that great but..man I would have loved to go.
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Apr 6, 2017 23:51
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Djarum posted:If I remember right it was 24 megs which as we already stated memory costs were insane back then. Turbo on the SNES was 20. I'm not denying the memory costs, but I'm sure Nintendo would've helped subsidize it considering the win they got with that port but neither of them had a reason to care when BIGGEST FIGHTING GAME EVER is on your system.
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Apr 6, 2017 23:56
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al-azad posted:I'm not denying the memory costs, but I'm sure Nintendo would've helped subsidize it considering the win they got with that port but neither of them had a reason to care when BIGGEST FIGHTING GAME EVER is on your system. Looking at a scanned copy of EGM from April 1992, their article about the impending release of Street Fighter II for the SNES (the original; Champion Edition was released on the Genesis) said it would retail for $75 to $85. I vaguely recall that it was indeed $75 at release, but I don't think that hurt production numbers or sales since it was Street Fighter II, indeed the BIGGEST FIGHTING GAME EVER at that point in time.
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Apr 7, 2017 00:18
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Kthulhu5000 posted:Looking at a scanned copy of EGM from April 1992, their article about the impending release of Street Fighter II for the SNES (the original; Champion Edition was released on the Genesis) said it would retail for $75 to $85. I vaguely recall that it was indeed $75 at release, but I don't think that hurt production numbers or sales since it was Street Fighter II, indeed the BIGGEST FIGHTING GAME EVER at that point in time. SF2: The World Warrior's sales on SNES were absolutely ridiculous, everyone got that game for their SNES. If you owned an SNES and 3 games there was like a 98% chance they were Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, and Street Fighter II.
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Apr 7, 2017 00:23
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Dr. Dos posted:Why is WWF Raw $73 in this 1995 Toys R Us catalog? http://dinosaurdracula.com/blog/toys-r-us-1995/ I like how Mortal Kombat II wears a Not Yet Rated tag even though it came out in the fall of 1994. You know what game I remember being expensive? 2020 Super Baseball. I assume it was due to memory size, because it sure didn't have any MLB licenses.
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Apr 7, 2017 00:59
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According to a currency converter, I spent $149 on Phantasy Star when it came out. I wonder how many papers I had to deliver 5am sunday morning to get that much $.
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Apr 7, 2017 01:07
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falz posted:According to a currency converter, I spent $149 on Phantasy Star when it came out. I wonder how many papers I had to deliver 5am sunday morning to get that much $. I remember seeing Phantasy Star 4 going for about that much, IIRC.
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Apr 7, 2017 01:09
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Yeah, NES, SNES and Genesis jRPG's were stupidly expensive due to large ROM chips and limited runs, usually requiring you to go to more mom-and-pop shops who would charge huge markups.
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Apr 7, 2017 01:16
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Don't forget that there was a big memory shortage for a while in the early 90's/late 80's that helped bloat prices too.
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Apr 7, 2017 01:30
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univbee posted:SF2: The World Warrior's sales on SNES were absolutely ridiculous, everyone got that game for their SNES. If you owned an SNES and 3 games there was like a 98% chance they were Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, and Street Fighter II. It's me. I'm the 1%.
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Apr 7, 2017 02:00
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Mak0rz posted:It's me. I'm the 1%.  I had SMW, LttP and Chrono Trigger, most everything else was rented.
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Apr 7, 2017 04:43
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al-azad posted:You're both right. It's real time 3D rendering but the perspective is fixed and doesn't account for a Z axis. You could swap the models for 2D sprites and the canceled Gameboy game was doing exactly that. Dino Crisis and Code Veronica are true 3D. That's not entirely true though; the rendering DOES account for Z axis. Its just the z-axis is limited to a single point in space for each x-y coordinate since the z-axis is mapped with a single texture file. Kinda like a bump map. Tendales posted:Yeah, that's basically what I'm trying to say. The models are 3D rendered in real time, but nothing else is. The engine isn't thinking about them being arranged in a 3D space at all, beyond what angle to render the model from which is just a constant on each screen. I really don't think that's entirely true though. The engine isn't "Thinking" about anything. I've written a first person raycaster from scratch. Its all just code. (I don't mean to sound patronizing; I know you know this too) Somewhere in that engine there is code that renders objects with the perspective and depth required by the scene, which it gets from a lookup to the background texture's depth texture equivalent. Its limited, but its still 3D rendering, IMO. Well, I guess you're talking about the logic engine as opposed to the rendering engine? I mean they're kinda part and parcel of the same "engine". But that's what I was getting into with my last post, SOMEWHERE in the game code it knows the height values. Just because the major game logic is mostly 2D doesn't mean it isn't 3D. I mean, plenty of fully 3D games limit you to a 2D plane. Would you consider Smash Bros to be 2D? Its polygonal and the engine renders everything with depth, but the logic works entirely on a 2D plane. That's the same as Resident Evil. The rendering has depth but the game logic never uses it. By that definition, I wouldn't be surprised if most baseball or football games were "2.5D" because position would be mostly X,Y with only a height value for the ball. I'm sure modern engines are fully 3D on position, but I bet a lot of the early polygonal ones weren't. But we're on the same page here I think, its just mostly semantics at this point. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 05:12
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