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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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This misses the point. People who argue that Trump voters are generally poor working class whites are obviously wrong, but that isn't the argument (usually) being made in this thread. The vast majority of Trump voters are literally just regular Republican voters, who are obviously pretty racist in general. With the exception of a small subset, it's the exact same group of people, so it's wrong to act like "Trump voters" are generally some different phenomena from "regular" Republican voters (and this applies to both your side of the argument and some leftists' arguments). The only group that really matters here are the small subset who flipped from Obama to Trump (i.e. not normal Republican voters, who make up most Trump voters), and someone posted data basically indicating that they were driven by both economic concerns and racial resentment. I think the problem is that some people, without receiving a convincing message from the left, were only exposed to the message of "your economic problems are due to immigrants/foreigners". This makes it a little difficult to determine how much of their racial resentment is a genuine part of their long-term ideology and how much is due to being exposed to a bunch of right-wing media telling them "your problems are because of those people." While even being susceptible to such a message obviously indicates some level of racism, I think you'll find that the majority of Democrats also have a bunch of really loving racist beliefs; they just don't consider them a part of their stated ideology.* In terms of action (which is ultimately what really matters), I don't think I've seen anyone saying we should try to become more racist to appeal to Trump voters. What is the harm that could come from improving and better marketing general "good for poorer people" policy at places like the rust belt? If voters care more about racism and aren't persuaded by that, well, gently caress them, but as long as a non-zero number are persuaded it's better than nothing. And it's not like such efforts would somehow only be targeted at Trump voters; they would also be seen by people who didn't vote at all and Democrats in those areas. To ensure that racists are "filtered" from the targets of such messaging, make sure it also includes a anti-racism/pro-diversity element. It's not like the only way to appeal to people is to reinforce all their worst opinions. *To further elaborate on this, there are a bunch of Democrats who consider "not being a racist" an important part of their identity and would appear less racist in polls, but frequently express a bunch of racism in their personal lives. This is because a bunch of people do not have especially coherent or consistent ideological views. There are a bunch of people who, immediately after meeting a PoC they get along well with, think "man, racists are terrible, how could anyone be racist?" but then immediately think a bunch of super racist poo poo the moment they encounter a rude PoC or guy with sagging pants. In general, I believe it is a big mistake to assume that the views people express in polls are an accurate represent of ~who they really are~. Most people can easily change their opinions on different subjects depending upon the environment they're exposed to. For example, I would be very, very interested to see how poll results for something like racial resentment changed if you gave the same poll to one group of people immediately after having them watch a documentary on how bad racism is and another group of people immediately after watching a movie that portrayed negative racial stereotypes. 
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Apr 7, 2017 17:49
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Ytlaya posted:In general, I believe it is a big mistake to assume that the views people express in polls are an accurate represent of ~who they really are~. Most people can easily change their opinions on different subjects depending upon the environment they're exposed to. Hell, people change their opinions based on how you word the poll question.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:51
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It's trivially obvious that the racists voted Trump. The problem is that the remaining hillfolk are trying to use this as a basis to defend their lovely economic policies and throw shade on the left because of no real reason other than the fact that they themselves know that said policies can't credibly be defended on their merits.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:52
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Plus, the Intercept piece flat-out misses the most glaring correlation in all of this: "Where Were Trump’s Votes? Where the Jobs Weren’t." Here's the thing that keeps getting missed on the Clinton side of this debate: of course issues like racism and opposition to immigration played important roles in why people chose to vote Trump. But throughout the campaign, these issues were framed by the Trump campaign as economic issues. It was, "Immigrants in general are fine, but THESE immigrants? No, THESE immigrants are TAKIN' YUR JERBS!!!" That's still extremely racist, but you can't extract the economic component from it: quote:“In every age group,” wrote Lakshman Achuthan of the Economic Cycle Research Institute in a penetrating analysis, “blacks, Hispanics and Asians have more jobs now than they did at the November 2007 high-water mark.” So it's a little disingenuous to act like we're somehow saying the Dems need to "coddle" racists, when we advocate for poo poo like promising new jobs in these areas, instead of promising to put more people there out of business. Economic solutions won't solve racism on their own, but they can probably help, and they can certainly make people think twice about voting for the more racist candidate. edit for typo, lol Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 17:52
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 http://brilliantmaps.com/did-not-vote/ We don't have to go after Trump voters. We could just try to appeal to the overwhelming majority of America who straight up didn't vote because neither candidate promised them anything they wanted. There are way more apathetic citizens than hard core racists, facists, or third way scum. Perhaps engaging those potential voters instead of doubling down on center right ideology forever would be a way forward?
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Apr 7, 2017 20:55
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This is definitely wrong for Washington state.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:03
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Majorian posted:Here's the thing that keeps getting missed on the Clinton side of this debate: of course issues like racism and opposition to immigration played important roles in why people chose to vote Trump. But throughout the campaign, these issues were framed by the Trump campaign as economic issues. It was, "Immigrants in general are fine, but THESE immigrants? No, THESE immigrants are TAKIN' YUR JERBS!!!" That's still extremely racist, but you can't exact the economic component from it: The weird thing is, it's not racist to go 'free trade and increased immigration will hurt our jobs' when free trade and increased immigration are used to weaken labor. Just listen to Obama try to talk to a factory worker about the Carrier situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKpso3vhZtw 'mr president, i represent the steelworkers union. all of our jobs are leaving indianapolis. i see you're doing things here but in indianapolis there's nothing. we're wondering what next. what can we look forward to in terms of jobs and employment. because all of our jobs have left, or are in the process of leaving' 'actually, more manufacturing jobs were created under me than any other time since the 1990s. that's a fact. but we have to accept these types of jobs are leaving and never coming back. instead we need to train your kids for the jobs of the future - they ain't even gonna pick anything up, they're just going to be typing on a keyboard - so we're prepared when they show up (eta: ???)' What type of message is that? Not a Step posted:We don't have to go after Trump voters. We could just try to appeal to the overwhelming majority of America who straight up didn't vote because neither candidate promised them anything they wanted. There are way more apathetic citizens than hard core racists, facists, or third way scum. Perhaps engaging those potential voters instead of doubling down on center right ideology forever would be a way forward? The fact there's people who voted for Obama that went Trump proves those voters aren't lost forever. It's would be much easier to win them back than it would be to attempt to mobilize people who couldn't be bothered to vote (since you would need a few election cycles worth of sustained action to prove to them that the system is worth participating in)
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Apr 7, 2017 21:22
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Call Me Charlie posted:The fact there's people who voted for Obama that went Trump proves those voters aren't lost forever. It's would be much easier to win them back than it would be to attempt to mobilize people who couldn't be bothered to vote (since you would need a few election cycles worth of sustained action to prove to them that the system is worth participating in) If you think thats how to go forward, sure. But literally anything is better than doubling down forever.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:37
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Apparently politics is an area suitable for instant gratification, where you don't have to deal with issues that take years, decades, even centuries to run their course. Amazing - people who believe this are actually trying to achieve decision making powers. Then they are going to ask "Demographics, what's that"
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Apr 7, 2017 21:41
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There's nothing that stops you from going after both the voters who flipped to Trump and the voters who stayed home. In fact, the same policies might even appeal to both groups. EDIT: steinrokkan posted:Apparently politics is an area suitable for instant gratification, where you don't have to deal with issues that take years, decades, even centuries to run their course. Amazing - people who believe this are actually trying to achieve decision making powers. Look, as Very Serious People have said for years, the only election that matters is the next Presidential one. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 21:47
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Spoken like a filthy leftist radical, aka somebody who actually wants to win instead of getting a paycheck in exchange for nothing
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Apr 7, 2017 21:48
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You also have the camp who believe 'Demographics are Destiny' and think that rather than do anything to help people *now*, or broaden the message to take current context into account, they can just sit back and chill until their perfect voter base rolls up in some ill defined future. They never seem to realize the perfect compliant voter base isn't just going to materialize overnight. And hopefully, when the voter base of the future does arrive they remember how content the Demographics as Destiny people were to let them get hosed and abandon their asses for someone who tried. The most infuriating people in the world are the woke lords who insist they can keep suffering and wait for some perfect solution rather than deal with the here and now. Except they personally are never anything more than mildly inconvenienced and miffed at the world, and have no problems waiting because their immense privilege insulates them against the suffering of others. They're like accelerationists except without the self awareness.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:50
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Not a Step posted:The most infuriating people in the world are the woke lords who insist they can keep suffering and wait for some perfect solution rather than deal with the here and now. Except they personally are never anything more than mildly inconvenienced and miffed at the world, and have no problems waiting because their immense privilege insulates them against the suffering of others. They're like accelerationists except without the self awareness. But the people they advocate for aren't going to advocate any solution, much less the perfect one. Like Submarine who was making GBS threads on minimum wage increases as not helping PoC where Clinton wasn't even offering that. They're using racial issues as a bludgeon to silence people on their left, but then they aren't actually doing anything about it. And here we are, 5 months after the election and dummies are STILL arguing about it, like they weren't on the wrong side of the issue other than words.
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Apr 7, 2017 23:28
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:They're using racial issues as a bludgeon to silence people on their left, but then they aren't actually doing anything about it. I would like to be able to vote for people who will do something about it. Next time, we should try running a candidate like that.
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Apr 7, 2017 23:43
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I would like to be able to vote for people who will do something about it. Next time, we should try running a candidate like that. We tried, he got ratfucked by the party.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:16
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:We tried, he got ratfucked by the party. We actually tried earlier than that, but got shut down a month after abuela announced.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:45
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...limited-amount/ http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/trump-syria-democratic-hawks-237024 In August 2016, 53% of Republicans and 42% of Democrats favored troops on the ground in Syria, a rare split almost perpendicular to division between parties. Meanwhile, Schumer, Pelosi, and Kerry are offering their support for Trump. It's strange how politicians are always more hawkish than the general public.
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Apr 8, 2017 01:04
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galenanorth posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...limited-amount/ It's almost as though they don't have skin in the game. Hahaha I'm just kidding, they have defense contractor dollars
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Apr 8, 2017 01:19
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So Perez is touring with Sanders for a week? Finally some great news.
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Apr 8, 2017 01:30
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Call Me Charlie posted:The weird thing is, it's not racist to go 'free trade and increased immigration will hurt our jobs' when free trade and increased immigration are used to weaken labor. this is the problem with centrists, they don't realize their constituents are human beings or think of them as human. why does obama tell this man he's gonna get this guy's kid a job when he's worried about his own job? what's his kid supposed to eat when his job goes away and nothing replaces it? is his kid supposed to take care of his jobless rear end once he finally gets one of those better jobs? obama's solution to "i'm losing my job!" is "sorry, you and your skills are obsolete. maybe your kid can take care of you someday? vote democratic!" Condiv fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 01:30
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Condiv posted:obama's solution to "i'm losing my job!" is "sorry, you and your skills are obsolete. maybe your kid can take care of you someday? vote democratic!" Well maybe if the man didn't hate black people and Mexicans so much, he'd see the benevolent wisdom in being told he's obsolete
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Apr 8, 2017 01:48
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Not a Step posted:
Well, the good news is, the political platform that would get those voters out to vote is the same as that which would get a good chunk of the Obama-to-Trump defectors back: left-wing economic agenda, with no backing down on anti-racism.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:46
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Confounding Factor posted:So Perez is touring with Sanders for a week? Finally some great news. Sanders... is a neoliberal traitor? 
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Apr 8, 2017 02:49
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Sanders... is a neoliberal traitor? Sanders has decided attempting to revitalize the Democratic Party is more important than his own grudges, because he is cool and good. Plus you know he's just going to give the only speech he has at every stop so its not even going to be a change in messaging. Meanwhile, Hillary has, uh, given a (paid) speech about the importance of hiring more women in leadership to increase profit margins for our corporate overlords. And also to call for the bombing of Syria. Majorian posted:Well, the good news is, the political platform that would get those voters out to vote is the same as that which would get a good chunk of the Obama-to-Trump defectors back: left-wing economic agenda, with no backing down on anti-racism. 
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Apr 8, 2017 03:03
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Condiv posted:hey,speaking of trump supporters, why the gently caress are hillary and friends loving on trump for going to war and why are they advocating for him to go to war? he's a fascist madman, and the dems are turning him loose upon the world!? what do you think? if there's one thing you should have learned about liberals from the last 70 years of history it's that literally nothing on earth will ever outweigh or deter the psychological drive to bomb Bad People in other countries, in order to prove that they are Good People icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 03:56
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Regarding that "Did Not Vote" map, I feel like it's not really useful unless it had some sort of comparison with other elections. I mean, it's not like 2016 is the first year a bunch of people haven't voted.
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Apr 8, 2017 05:47
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Not a Step posted:Sanders has decided attempting to revitalize the Democratic Party is more important than his own grudges, because he is cool and good. Plus you know he's just going to give the only speech he has at every stop so its not even going to be a change in messaging. Hey now, that's really unfair to Hillary. She also gave an interview where she blamed everybody else for her own humiliating fuckup.
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Apr 8, 2017 07:02
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icantfindaname posted:what do you think? and after 8 years of trump warcrimes and graft flowing into the trump mercenary PMO, dems will say they never expected trump to wage such a horrible war, but now is not the time to hold him to account for his crimes but to move forward
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Apr 8, 2017 07:27
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Dems will use the poor execution of the war to criticize Trump's judgment, and Trump will point out that they were on the news egging him on and they voted for all of it so their judgment must be even worse than his, and America will agree with him.
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Apr 8, 2017 07:37
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Ytlaya posted:
quote:*To further elaborate on this, there are a bunch of Democrats who consider "not being a racist" an important part of their identity and would appear less racist in polls, but frequently express a bunch of racism in their personal lives. This is because a bunch of people do not have especially coherent or consistent ideological views. There are a bunch of people who, immediately after meeting a PoC they get along well with, think "man, racists are terrible, how could anyone be racist?" but then immediately think a bunch of super racist poo poo the moment they encounter a rude PoC or guy with sagging pants.
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Apr 8, 2017 10:27
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Fulchrum posted:How much of those people was actual economic concerns and how many were "let's give the other side a try" voters who switch every 8 years? The people who can't form any form of insight or reasoning so they just back swinging the white house the other way when given the option? How do you feel about Abuela agreeing with Dangerous Donny bombing Syria?
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Apr 8, 2017 12:16
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:How do you feel about Abuela agreeing with Dangerous Donny bombing Syria? He also agrees with her on the importance of breathing. Oooh, guess you'd better stop thar
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Apr 8, 2017 12:21
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Fulchrum posted:He also agrees with her on the importance of breathing. Oooh, guess you'd better stop thar 
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Apr 8, 2017 12:24
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An infinite circle of violence is necessary to perpetuate America, just like air is needed to keep a person alive. Death to America, inshallah.
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Apr 8, 2017 12:28
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Bombing foreigners is as natural as breathing to Hillary " " Clinton.
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Apr 8, 2017 12:41
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steinrokkan posted:An infinite circle of violence is necessary to perpetuate America, just like air is needed to keep a person alive. I assume you think bombing airplane tarmac would selfishly prevent them from dropping the antidote to the chemical weapons they just used? Wait wait, lemme guess, you people believe Assad, just like Gaddafi and Putin, Did Nothing Wrong and it was a false flag or some poo poo.
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Apr 8, 2017 12:42
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Fulchrum posted:I assume you think bombing airplane tarmac would selfishly prevent them from dropping the antidote to the chemical weapons they just used? What's it feel like to lust for war ?
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Apr 8, 2017 12:46
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If you don't want a war, you must love Once we destroy enough of
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Apr 8, 2017 12:46
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VitalSigns posted:If you don't want a war, you must love Well then, lets just tell the people who felt their skin melting and their nerves on fire before they died that it's their own fault, they should have just chosen not to be born under a madman, cause literally any action is just too much. Tight Booty Shorts posted:What's it feel like to lust for war ? What's it feel like to have utter contempt for people who got exposed to chemical weapons? Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 12:50
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Fulchrum posted:Well then, lets just tell the people who felt their skin melting and their nerves on fire before they died that it's their own fault, they should have just chosen not to be born under a madman, cause literally any action is just too much. Oh my god. Fulcrum how do you think the war in Iraq went
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Apr 8, 2017 12:52
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