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Araganzar posted:How does this interact with Ashenzari? Ash gives a skill bonus that's affected by the species apt for that skill. So how does that work with Bu? Bultungins have baseline 0 aptitudes for everything, the modifier is a bonus/malus applied on top of that baseline. Ashenzari works the same way for them as for Humans.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:13
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Serephina posted:Some of those sound like /amazing/ background classes, but it's just not something that crawl could do. Yeah, all the things that come to mind for tattooist are less background and more god. I like the idea of someone recording their heroic deeds and using the magic in their tattoos to get bonuses, it's just not so much a background thing. I might mull it over and start working on something though because I've always really liked the flavor. Tincturist would probably end up too close to artificer and Tiger Tamer would be a nightmare to figure out.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:28
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SKULL.GIF posted:Bultungins have baseline 0 aptitudes for everything, the modifier is a bonus/malus applied on top of that baseline. Ashenzari works the same way for them as for Humans. This is both the correct answer and a new lesson for me because I never knew that aptitude affected the skill boost as well (because I never use Ash). I only tested Ash out at different levels of skill and binding and figured the bonuses were balanced 
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Apr 7, 2017 17:44
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Floodkiller posted:This is both the correct answer and a new lesson for me because I never knew that aptitude affected the skill boost as well (because I never use Ash). I only tested Ash out at different levels of skill and binding and figured the bonuses were balanced I should have gone ash because hitting -6 apt at 11 skill is just brutal. Finishing Lair without getting polearms to 12 and I have both trained it all game and cross-trained staves and axes. Was that really where it was considered balanced? Everyone that has come into chat has looked at the skill costs and said no thanks. I feel like it shouldn't be such a struggle to get a skill to 12. I have no problem with it being ridiculous to raise above 14-15.
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Apr 7, 2017 18:29
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I'm actually quite unhappy about "bultungin" because not only did I want playable gnolls(quite badly), but also it doesn't even fit the species flavor nearly as well as gnoll does. bultungin refers to a weird obscure myth about shapeshifters which not only does no one recognize, but also it implies changing forms which the species does not do!
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Apr 7, 2017 18:34
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Araganzar posted:I should have gone ash because hitting -6 apt at 11 skill is just brutal. Finishing Lair without getting polearms to 12 and I have both trained it all game and cross-trained staves and axes. Was that really where it was considered balanced? Everyone that has come into chat has looked at the skill costs and said no thanks. I feel like it shouldn't be such a struggle to get a skill to 12. I have no problem with it being ridiculous to raise above 14-15. I actually drew the line on my development branch at the continued attempts to make it more difficult without wider testing. The current system is column AO in this spreadsheet, which shows how much total experience is required to reach each skill level. Once more data comes in, there should be better evidence for what direction to take it (whether easier or harder).
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Apr 7, 2017 18:59
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Here are my skills on a Doggy Skald after Lair and Orc (and D1-D13): Skills: - Level 10.0 Fighting - Level 7.5(10.9) Axes Level 8.2(9.4) Maces & Flails + Level 11.9(12.1) Polearms Level 7.3(10.9) Staves + Level 3.4 Crossbows - Level 7.4 Throwing + Level 9.7 Armour - Level 9.6 Dodging - Level 6.3 Stealth - Level 9.4 Shields - Level 8.2 Spellcasting - Level 8.5 Hexes - Level 8.0 Charms - Level 9.1 Necromancy - Level 7.0 Invocations - Level 7.3 Evocations I think that's not too bad. For comparison, here is a Human Skald at the same XL: - Level 10.0 Fighting * Level 16.9 Polearms Level 2.0 Slings - Level 1.0 Armour + Level 6.7 Dodging - Level 7.0 Spellcasting - Level 6.0 Conjurations - Level 3.6 Hexes - Level 7.0 Charms - Level 5.1 Fire Magic - Level 6.2 Invocations + Level 9.5 Evocations
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Apr 7, 2017 19:02
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Apr 7, 2017 19:20
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Barkyboys
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Apr 7, 2017 19:23
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Brannock posted:Okay, I agree "Bultungin" was overambitious and not a successful name. They're going to be renamed to Gnolls; just need to figure out a couple complications first.
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Apr 7, 2017 19:30
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yeah that sounds complicated as poo poo
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Apr 7, 2017 20:16
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Lol what complications are there, its text in a file. Just select it like you were going to remove it, then instead of just hitting the big 'delete' key like you normally would on a new or interesting feature you just hit the letters g n o l l in order. Then probably enter or something.
Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 20:34
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'Gn'omes were an ancient species but still tracked in Sequell and online scoring. Need to account for 'Gn'olls taking over the abbreviation before it can go through.
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Apr 7, 2017 20:49
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Captain Monkey posted:Lol what complications are there, its text in a file. Just select it like you were going to remove it, then instead of just hitting the big 'delete' key like you normally would on a new or interesting feature you just hit the letters g n o l l in order. Then probably enter or something.
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Apr 7, 2017 20:57
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It fucks up sequell queries so they need to do something about that first, no need to be rude
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Apr 7, 2017 21:08
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SKULL.GIF posted:'Gn'omes were an ancient species but still tracked in Sequell and online scoring. Need to account for 'Gn'olls taking over the abbreviation before it can go through. Hahahaha, the devs have removed so many interesting things that they can't even add new ones until they extra super double remove something a second time, to clear the way for the new race (which will probably be removed shortly). (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2017 21:09
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Captain Monkey posted:Hahahaha, the devs have removed so many interesting things that they can't even add new ones until they extra super double remove something a second time, to clear the way for the new race (which will probably be removed shortly).  if you think Gnomes were actually an interesting species. Grey Elves were more interesting, and they were literally High Elves but a few aptitudes lowered by 1 and the ability to sparkle to distract enemies.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:13
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Floodkiller posted:
We'll never know how interesting they could have been. We've all seen what happens to new, interesting mechanics and ideas (rip WJC).
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Apr 7, 2017 21:15
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I'm still sad about the loss of high elves. Where else am I going to turn for a hybrid? Merfolk IE? EEEWWWW
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Apr 7, 2017 21:30
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I am sorry that I was rude.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:47
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Captain Monkey posted:We'll never know how interesting they could have been. We've all seen what happens to new, interesting mechanics and ideas (rip WJC). code:Trivia: Did you know there used to be five kinds of elves?
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Apr 7, 2017 21:47
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Floodkiller posted:Trivia: Did you know there used to be five kinds of elves? KE ruined that for everyone, with the Baking ability they had effectively no hunger clock so it was like having a mummy with elf apts. I know it's not your fault but why is my dog having to run swamp AND snake when this is the only rPois in the whole game? the +1 mace of Greatest Utility {drain, rPois rN+ MR+ Str+2}
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Apr 7, 2017 22:04
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Trunko posted:I am sorry that I was rude. I forgive you
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Apr 7, 2017 22:05
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Here is what skills look like at almost XL21, with the costs:code:There's a real soft cap at 9 and another harder one at 11. It slows down incredibly around 11. This puts the real pain point around 12. I liked the species a lot more at 14, but someone on the dev team must have played this and found that acceptable. I'll let you know how it feels after running snake with STILL NO RPOIS WHAT??!??!?! Seriously I am about to take off +8 chain to wear +0 swamp dragon armor. Swamp was horrible. Not having rPois in Swamp is great if you like either (a) using all your cure potions or (b) sitting next to the stairs watching your hp tick down from 87 to 15 praying nothing comes around the corner. Araganzar fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 23:10
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 I'm sure people can still make them effective at a 12 soft skill cap, but that doesn't seem like a fun hybrid to me. The best part of high elves was getting Tornado working around the second or third rune.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:18
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Here we are after Snake, Elf, Crypt, and U1-2, just into XL26:code:At this point I've pretty much turned on Fighting, Dodging, and Armor and I'll see how high those get after U3-U5.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:30
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Next to last Trip Report - Here we are after Depths and V5:code:
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Apr 8, 2017 01:08
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Get Along, Little Doggie....code:
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Apr 8, 2017 01:35
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Araganzar posted:
oh no what have you done, I liked hep.
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Apr 8, 2017 04:48
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quote:Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20-a0-971-g5896763 (console) character file. http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20170409-042344.txt Well, that was a horrid mess of a species. Probably worse than Mummy as it currently stands, and I do not say that lightly. This was a character who by the end could pick between the autumn katana, the This was a character who for basically the entire game had from mutations a pip of rF, innate clarity (which made using the zealot's blade viable), and robust for mutations. This was a character for whom getting a skill to 15 was unadulterated pain and misery, because -6 apts are the worst. Thank Okawaru for Heroism. I actually was considering extended for a bit, but then I realized that going into extended before winning the species for the first time would be a terrible idea. As would doing so with basically no spellcasting access at all. ...how are you supposed to win this species without completely absurd equipment? Going past 12 in a skill is pure torture, and almost no weapon types viable in endgame hit mindelay at 12 or lower. Araganzar posted:How does this interact with Ashenzari? Ash gives a skill bonus that's affected by the species apt for that skill. So how does that work with Bu? As someone who tried Ash out, it seems to use the current apt. That's my only explanation for how 6* piety + being fully bound was only getting me skill boosts of ~1.5 or less on the skills at 11 or higher.
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Apr 9, 2017 06:06
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Floodkiller posted:That's on us. the Orb of Zot posted:Well, that was a horrid mess of a species. Probably worse than Mummy as it currently stands, and I do not say that lightly. I tried Gnolls earlier myself and found the aptitude gimmick to a bit too punishing. As it stands, I don't think the species is strong enough outside of the weird aptitude shift to really justify the soft-hard capping at 12-15, I feel like either their stats would need to become demigod-ish and very strong mutations would need to be handed out or there needs to be a way to restore the aptitudes to a functioning level. I don't like the idea of adjusting their stats or handing out strong mutations because other species already cover that and it doesn't really mesh with their main gimmick, which is a heavy promotion of training a wide variety of skills, sometimes just for the sake of training them. I had two rough ideas for improving this. The first one is that aptitudes could recover slowly as you gain EXP, sort of like the drain mechanic but applied to aptitudes, the rationale being that they could find interest in the skill again after not paying attention to it for awhile. I'm not actually sure how this could be implemented, and I don't think it really super fits with their concept either. The other, which I prefer, is that the aptitudes will shift back up as you collect X many levels of skills in total. What I mean by this is say an accumulated total of 80 skill levels or something will raise the point where they start decaying from 11 to 12, then 90 or 100 or whatever raise it from 12 to 13. This would encourage you to consistently train as many skills as possible to get the best return on your experience, and I think fits with the theme really well. Any thoughts?
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Apr 9, 2017 22:45
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Haven't tried gnolls myself but there's been the overall feedback that brennon mentions, then there's people who think they're overpowered and then there's minmay/duvessa who thinks they're just humans. From what I can tell the main thing that stands out is the soft cap is hit only after you have access to level 5-6 spells which means you'll have a pretty good variety of options to carry you in a 3-rune game, but they seem pretty screwed if they want to do extended.
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Apr 9, 2017 23:20
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High Elves should come back with the opposite ability of Bultungins. They learn slowly at first, but when they stick with a skill they can become an expert on it. -6 to start -4 at skill level 4 -2 at skill level 12 0 at skill level 16 +2 at skill level 20 and +4 at skill level 24. -10% hp +10% mp high starting stats, but slow gains to int and dex +5 mr per lvl edit: And Bultungins should get a reduction in their skill penalty at level 23 or something. Thalamas fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 00:59
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When Gnolls where first introduced I was authentically excited about them as a new race, which is rare. The idea of basically getting all your skills to 12 instantly then playing gnoll-crawl for the rest of the game was intriguing. But 12 was too low, now it's 15, and it's not quite instantaneous to get there but it sure as hell stops once it does. Feedback suggests it's not very exciting, which is a shame. I'd play it myself but I have a firm no-trunk policy after losing a few too many characters to half-implemented changes (my most salty was surprise Manticore barbs, which where happy to let you walk around for insane dmg w/o warning). Possibly suggestion which might horribly break flavor but make the race interesting? Allow one skill to go above the soft cap, maybe the first to get past it, and for the rest of the skills the cap becomes hard. So you could have 27 in e.g. Hexes, but the rest of your skills are stuck at 12ish. Allows for a lot of versatility on how you want to build your dude, and keeps them competitive with other races where players pick their skill-of-choice during character creation ("I want to cast tornado, so Tengu it is!")
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Apr 10, 2017 04:24
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apple posted:Haven't tried gnolls myself but there's been the overall feedback that brennon mentions, then there's people who think they're overpowered and then there's minmay/duvessa who thinks they're just humans. I had to get Air, Hexes, and SC all to 11 to cast silence reliably in scale (or in chain with wizardry). I don't think level 6 spells are reasonable in a 3-5 rune game in anything but robes. Unfortunately, it's become pretty unrealistic to melee in anything light. Even for "dodgy" races, the malus to EV from heavy armor is modest. Less than chain or high enchant scale is suicidal in Depths/V5/Zot doing 1h damage with no heavy conjurations and below average dodging, armor, and fighting. 0.20's "hybrid" is not someone who took a couple schools to 10-12 to supplant their melee. It's someone who took conj to 16 to get OOD online or took their hexes to 18 to be able to affect anyone. And they did so because their apts allowed it. You really can't hybrid anymore without making a significant investment in either armor or spells schools, and this race can do neither. Also can't use high level spells, conjurations or hexes, or 2H weapons. Any other race with a similar disadvantage receives significantly more and better perks in return. If the pain point came at 12 skill instead of 11, that might be enough for me to overcome that. But the game's direction is dominated by people that have no problem winning under almost any xp malus provided they can live to Lair. You have people who will say with all seriousness "the game is over once you make it to Temple". This leads to early survival being way overvalued compared to the general crawl population. In my play, this has meant things get too hard too fast. I think therefore it's going to be difficult to make the race fun enough for long enough for the casual or semi-casual player while still pleasing that vocal and influential segment of the user base. I don't play extended but the race being worthless for extended is another issue that might be solved by rune-gating the xp malus in some way. That's quite the minefield to have to navigate so I will probably play and try to enjoy whatever makes it through, remembering that Octopodes and Demonspawn remain some of the most popular races... Araganzar fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 05:34
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Sometimes I wonder if the game should explicitly have a difficulty setting as opposed to going 'well, challenge races/challenge backgrounds'.
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Apr 10, 2017 05:41
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 Thanks crawl.  Is finding artifact-grade naga barding on D:1 (or finding naga barding ever) when you're not a naga also super common?
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Apr 10, 2017 07:25
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It is proper floor god behavior to only ever give non centaurs/nagas bardings, yes.
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Apr 10, 2017 10:13
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hi again friends Can I get some advice on mutation management in the endgame? My FoFiOka is 27 and on Zot 4, so I'm poking around stuff like Hell and Vault 5 before trying to finish my first game Anywho, a game's worth of orbs of fire and shining eyes have left me looking like this:  I imagine at some point I want to blow my mutation removal potions, then my beneficial mutation potions, then try to win. However, is this that point? The above are annoying, but nothing that's a death sentence
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Apr 10, 2017 14:46
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Frail is somewhat high priority and while -4 Str/-2 Dex isn't backbreaking it's probably costing you multiple points of evasion and shielding so those combined justify purging. Unless you're seriously starved for mutation removal go ahead and clean them. The rest of them are pretty irrelevant to a heavy armour fighty dude. Dropping slow regen would be a minor plus.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:58
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