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If anything, it's a testament to the skill of the goebbelses of Kökk that turpiinveto-Jansku's conviction has been successfully framed as a story of redemption, uplifting a troubled youth into a Very Serious Person. e: vitun taistolaisten sääntö 
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Apr 10, 2017 13:12
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http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9556248 Väyrynen sanoo ykkösaiheensa valtuutettuna olevan pääkaupungin kasvun rajoittaminen. Väyrynen torppaa suunnitelmat esimerkiksi Östersundomin kaavoittamiseksi. Nenonen posted:ei perse jotain positiivista sentään mitä muita kehareita putosi?
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Apr 10, 2017 13:16
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Hogge Wild posted:jotain positiivista sentään Real communists, at least in Helsinki. Instead we get fresher loonies in the councils.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:00
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Nenonen posted:ei perse Good
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Apr 10, 2017 14:25
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http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9558289 4:llä äänellä valtuustoon  0:lla äänellä varalle 
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Apr 10, 2017 14:51
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Pidetään maaseutu elinvoimaisena
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Apr 10, 2017 14:56
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Rappaport posted:If anything, it's a testament to the skill of the goebbelses of Kökk that turpiinveto-Jansku's conviction has been successfully framed as a story of redemption, uplifting a troubled youth into a Very Serious Person. Honestly, I'm more concerned of the fact that he was drunk driving in 2001... Hogge Wild posted:http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9556248 quote:Kristillisdemokraattien listalla ehdokkaana ollut Paavo Väyrynen nousi Helsingin kaupunginvaltuustoon. Nyt Terve Helsinki -liikettä luotsaava Väyrynen keräsi 1 015 ääntä. Hän on kansalaispuolueen puheenjohtaja ja entinen keskustan puheenjohtaja. Well, he's sure internalized the philosophy of not putting all your eggs in one basket. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 15:45
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lol SDP literally lost votes when compared to the last elections. Like, how the gently caress is that even possible?
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Apr 10, 2017 16:38
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disillusionised persu voters and a sosiaalidemokraattinen puolue thats done absolutely gently caress all in opposition while the greens möykkää ja mölyää
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Apr 10, 2017 16:55
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Cerebral Bore posted:lol SDP literally lost votes when compared to the last elections. Like, how the gently caress is that even possible? It's their worst result in 64 years 
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Apr 10, 2017 16:58
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Might also have to do with aging voters and old sdp stalwarts just croaking/being too frail to vote...
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Apr 10, 2017 19:39
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Cerebral Bore posted:lol SDP literally lost votes when compared to the last elections. Like, how the gently caress is that even possible? Dead people can't vote.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:21
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TV1 is currently showing a documentary called "Kiehumispiste" ("Boiling Point" for people with Finnish deficiency) that chronicles the crazy year that was 2016, when the Syrian refugee crisis touched Finland. It's worth a look if you've been out of the loop about how poo poo went down that year. EDIT: Here's the link to the doc. No. 1 Callie Fan fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 20:38
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Eagerly awaiting big SDP names to start arguing in the media that they need to start rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic right now before it sinks.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:40
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Literally still suffering from a hangover from an alcohol/drug related binge last night and every SaDP voter I know is still feeling worse then I am. Also every one of them thinks Sanna Marin is going to be the next leader of the party, which I would certainly put money on.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:43
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if enough people convince her to run its propably going to be a fight between Marin and Lindtman and its not gonna be pretty
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Apr 10, 2017 20:52
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HerraS posted:if enough people convince her to run its propably going to be a fight between Marin and Lindtman and its not gonna be pretty Isn't Lindtman tarnished by the whole secret list thing? Between Andersson and Kari (come on who here thinks she is not going to lead the Greens after Niinistö?) young 30-something attractive women are all the rage on the left (not that I am complaining) so Marin has that edge right off the bat.
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Apr 10, 2017 21:09
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Lindtman is still Heinäluoma's Chosen One and most people wont give a poo poo about the list thing in three years also in regards to the vihreet I'd assume Touko-Pouko's stock rose massively after what happened in Jykylä yesterday HerraS fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 21:33
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DarkCrawler posted:Isn't Lindtman tarnished by the whole secret list thing? Between Andersson and Kari (come on who here thinks she is not going to lead the Greens after Niinistö?) young 30-something attractive women are all the rage on the left (not that I am complaining) so Marin has that edge right off the bat. I certainly hope not (re: Emma Kari). She's among the most left-wing Greenies out there. Antero Vartia stands out as a much better candidate (policywise) who also has the sex appeal (no homo) required. Though he's on the right of the party. It'll be interesting to see which way they swing. Overall, it was an ok election. Right now, Greens are probably the least bad opposition party so nice to see them win big instead of LA or SDP. Glad that Helsinki will remain in Kokoomus hands even with opposition parties gaining. At least many of the greens that got through are from the sane side of the party (Soininvaara etc).
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Apr 10, 2017 22:14
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Antero Vartia stands out as a much better candidate (policywise)  Yle posted:SDP keräsi kunnassa komean äänisaaliin, minkä vuoksi demareiden Tuomo Kyllästinen pääsi varalle, vaikkei äänestänyt edes itseään. demarit.txt
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Apr 11, 2017 06:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I certainly hope not (re: Emma Kari). She's among the most left-wing Greenies out there. Antero Vartia stands out as a much better candidate (policywise) who also has the sex appeal (no homo) required. Though he's on the right of the party. It'll be interesting to see which way they swing. Emma got more votes this time around than the Vampire from Eira, she's prob. a front-runner for party head.
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Apr 11, 2017 07:37
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Rappaport posted:Emma got more votes this time around than the Vampire from Eira, she's prob. a front-runner for party head. Also Vartia has close to zero support inside the party. The only ones who probably support him are wingnuts like Osmo "Garden Gnome" Soininvaara and Lilja "Salt" Tamminen, and they're all as far right as Greens go.
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Apr 11, 2017 07:49
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Juha Sipilä wants to amend the constitution to allow network surveillance, and not like next term but as soon as possible. Therefore he wants to put it through the express lane and change it during this term. Thing is, changing the constitution requires a 2/3 majority amongst people's representatives not only during this term but also the next term. The speed-up process "only" requires a 5/6 majority. I don't know if it'll go through, since Finland is presented as an ideal country because of the strict laws protecting private communications. But with all kinds of shadowy figures lurking around cyberspace, there's pressure to go the NSA route.
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Apr 11, 2017 08:41
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Rappaport posted:Emma got more votes this time around than the Vampire from Eira, she's prob. a front-runner for party head. In the 2015 elections, Vartia beat Kari in Helsinki (Vartia didn't run in the municipal elections) Then again, Kari is being pushed internally by Niinistö ym but picking someone so hard left will hurt the Greens in the long run because trying to become a "cool" Vasemmistoliitto will hurt them with moderate voters and Li will Make Vasemmistoliitto Cool Again anyway (and at some point people will start asking whether anyone sane can be anti-nuclear and pro-environment). Then again, their most popular candidates in these elections (other than Sinnemäki) represent the far-left (Touko Aalto, Emma Kari) so unfortunately they might end up there.
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Apr 11, 2017 09:47
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Geriatric Pirate posted:In the 2015 elections, Vartia beat Kari in Helsinki (Vartia didn't run in the municipal elections) quote:Then again, Kari is being pushed internally by Niinistö ym but picking someone so hard left will hurt the Greens in the long run because trying to become a "cool" Vasemmistoliitto will hurt them with moderate voters and Li will Make Vasemmistoliitto Cool Again anyway (and at some point people will start asking whether anyone sane can be anti-nuclear and pro-environment). Then again, their most popular candidates in these elections (other than Sinnemäki) represent the far-left (Touko Aalto, Emma Kari) so unfortunately they might end up there. Thank you for your great opinions! Would you tell more about Kari and Aalto being hard left? I am really interested in this. Please elaborate! I mean, I obviously misunderstand and have to calibrate my sensors, since I get this entire "dumb and insincere concern trolling" vibe from your posts.
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Apr 11, 2017 10:22
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Geriatric Pirate posted:In the 2015 elections, Vartia beat Kari in Helsinki (Vartia didn't run in the municipal elections) The Greens just got a historically good result under the leadership of Ville "bumbtsibum nami nami" Niinistö, so it seems the voters want a cool green left party  Or, at least, this will be the argument Emma and her wing will utilize, and I am not sure how credible the right wing Greens can be when the party's messaging has consistently been against the current capitalist-fascist-child rapist government.
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Apr 11, 2017 10:29
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Rappaport posted:The Greens just got a historically good result under the leadership of Ville "bumbtsibum nami nami" Niinistö, so it seems the voters want a cool green left party The Greens have been over 13% in European elections and had a candidate get to the second round of the presidential election since 2000, so I wouldn't say "historically good" (even though it was a great result for them). It may be what some voters want but in the long run they're shooting themselves in the foot - there are only so many voters that want to vote for a party that's to the left of SDP.
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Apr 11, 2017 10:50
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El Perkele posted:And Alanko-Kahiluoto beat Vartia. And Perussuomalaiset got 17,7 % of the vote. And Pekka Haavisto got more votes than Sampo Terho. So what is your point? Sorry, I forgot that by goon standards anyone to the right of Stalin is right wing
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Apr 11, 2017 10:52
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Sorry, I forgot that by goon standards anyone to the right of Stalin is right wing Sorry, I forgot that by insane right-winger standards anyone who doesn't want to stomp poor people into the dirt is hard-left
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Apr 11, 2017 10:53
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Sorry, I forgot that by goon standards anyone to the right of Stalin is right wing That's not answering the question. What makes Kari far left, which was your positions? What actual positions of hers could be classified as far left and why? Because from where I'm standing, Kari and the rest of the greens are about as far left as a lot of the Vas and most of the SDP, which is to say not far left at all. You know, since that word actually means something besides relative comparison to a comfortable reference frame.
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Apr 11, 2017 10:57
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The Greens have been over 13% in European elections and had a candidate get to the second round of the presidential election since 2000, so I wouldn't say "historically good" (even though it was a great result for them). It may be what some voters want but in the long run they're shooting themselves in the foot - there are only so many voters that want to vote for a party that's to the left of SDP. 1. Why do you think there are only so many voters that want a party that's "to the left" of SDP? 2. Do you believe that relative powers of parties are fixed, and that the current movement of Overton window is inevitable or a law of nature? 3. Why do you believe that a party that has been slowly creeping from a fringe party to a party that might actually seriously compete for prime minister positions will stall because they follow the track that has proven so successful? 4. If "what voters want" gives Greens ever better results, then why do you believe that these same voters do not actually want that party? I think you are looking at the current political situation from a post-2011 perspective and consider that to be the "norm" or representative of voters' will, but these are not some immutable laws of nature. Political shifts can be rapid and cataclysmic and can significantly alter the political landscape of a nation in very short timespan. Likewise, they can rapidly shift the Overton window to some particular direction, but those shifts are reactive and difficult to predict.
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Apr 11, 2017 11:08
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El Perkele posted:That's not answering the question. What makes Kari far left, which was your positions? What actual positions of hers could be classified as far left and why? Because from where I'm standing, Kari and the rest of the greens are about as far left as a lot of the Vas and most of the SDP, which is to say not far left at all. You know, since that word actually means something besides relative comparison to a comfortable reference frame. Kari (and Touko Aalto) are far-left by Finnish political standards then. You can see that by how they place on the second graph on this page: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9548517 And yes, she's as left as most of the Vas, which is far-left by Finnish standards, they're (Vas) the most left-wing current party.
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Apr 11, 2017 11:12
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The Greens have been over 13% in European elections and had a candidate get to the second round of the presidential election since 2000, so I wouldn't say "historically good" (even though it was a great result for them). It may be what some voters want but in the long run they're shooting themselves in the foot - there are only so many voters that want to vote for a party that's to the left of SDP. I meant Finnish Greens, sorry about the bad wording  And kinda forgot about Haavisto to be honest. The prez doesn't do much. The Greens and Vas will split the green-left vote, sure, but they also probably won't object to being in the same hallitus if the opportunity represents itself. Of course this means the prime minister will be Tytti instead of Emma or Li, so I guess it's a question of whether they're more interested in their own career path or advancing the left-green agenda.
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Apr 11, 2017 11:12
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Kari (and Touko Aalto) are far-left by Finnish political standards then. You can see that by how they place on the second graph on this page: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9548517 Terms like "far-right" and "far-left" are based on policy, not on the relative position of a data point at an ordination matrix that has been centered on the weighted average. They have precise, significant meanings and a lot of literature about them, including definitions. You do not get to throw them around and then redefine them "as relative", because that is dumb as poo poo. I have to say that the Yle graph is better than that horrible Hesari graph, but still different. Yle did a factorial analysis of the data, and then figured out how the data is spread. This means it describes the relative positions of the points in relation to each other, not to an external meter like Hesari did. This means that you cannot take a position of a single data point, then extrapolate how much an unmeasured factor affects that point's position. You have to rely on external validification or judgements for that. It's like saying "this random Kepu person is far-right because on this reference frame he is the opposite of Emma Kari", which would be idiotic, since the term far-right actually means a pretty specific set of political beliefs. Hence: how is Emma Kari far-left? What are her positions that classify her as far-left? El Perkele fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 11:29
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Gooni joutui spergimoodiin, kaikki yllättyivät.
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Apr 11, 2017 12:12
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El Perkele posted:1. Why do you think there are only so many voters that want a party that's "to the left" of SDP? We can't predict what will happen in the future but right now it does not look like a green-left renaissance is forthcoming. The government got through its roughest patch (immigration wave, pushing through reforms, low growth) and the economy looks to be improving now. PS got decimated but Kok and Kesk are still up there. Now as for the Vihr strategy specifically: 1) Aiming to be the furthest left party in Finland when your voterbase is the youngest and most educated is just dumb. Even if people don't always vote in their own interest, at some point you have to question why the most well off people in Finland would vote for a party that profiles itself as the most economically left wing. Right now the Greens aren't quite there yet, and people like Vartia are pushing through stuff that rich people can support (and poor should too) like reforming the stupid pharmacist licensing system and supporting urbanization, but I'm wondering how on earth they're going to manage to sell opposing SoTe to a voterbase where most people use private healthcare and live in the regions that would probably benefit most from SoTe. 2) The party hasn't really been scrutinized much in terms of their policies under Niinistö, because they haven't had any. They've just been prolifically pro-immigrant and anti-government, but their own policies for instance for reforming healthcare are vague. 3) The Greens are already a party whose electorate consists mainly of women. Of the women that stay with Greens because "I could never vote for Kokoomus", most will be super socially liberal. Vas will eventually jettison its workers (male) and will identify even more strongly with identity politics etc. This is starting to happen now but hasn't fully yet. What you have in the end will be Vas and Greens both competing for the same voters, i.e. socially liberal, young, urban women. You're slicing out large chunks of the electorate with each of those classifications and then you're dividing it in two between Vas and Greens. Ironically enough, this could lead to economically left / socially conservative men to return to SDP. El Perkele posted:Terms like "far-right" and "far-left" are based on policy, not on the relative position of a data point at an ordination matrix that has been centered on the weighted average. They have precise, significant meanings and a lot of literature about them, including definitions. You do not get to throw them around and then redefine them "as relative", because that is dumb as poo poo. Just imagine I said "extremely left-wing" or "at the far left end of the Finnish political spectrum" then. Although I'm quite sure a lot of posters here don't really use any restraint with the term "far-right", with the definition being anyone who is opposed to granting asylum to anyone who makes it this far* *specifically asylum seekers, because cutting legal immigration (for work etc) is apparently a Good Policy because it's what the trade unions want
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Apr 11, 2017 12:33
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It's important for me to post the gormless mug of Pietarsaari's bright young SDP star. Never have I seen so little gorm. 
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Apr 11, 2017 12:41
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For some reason, Alexander Dugin has been allowed to enter the country for the second time since the annexation of Crimea. http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/201704112200100985_uu.shtml There has to be something that can be done to stop this guy from entering, I don't care if Bäckman himself invited him. And I don't care if Dugin is a total joke himself, by the principle of what he says he should not be allowed in. Fabulous Knight fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 12:56
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Just imagine I said "extremely left-wing" or "at the far left end of the Finnish political spectrum" then. This might surprise you, but I have no issue imagining you didn't know the political terms you used to attack a politician you don't like.
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Apr 11, 2017 13:03
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For what it's worth, I don't think that most people really care about stuff like economic policy except that they want to vote in people that they trust to give them a better future. And that trust is built through both narratives and concrete successes. And it's the right that has been pushing pants-on-head retarded economics based on a pretty good and coherent narrative, to the point where even the left bought that same narrative and look stupid as their economics clash with their ideology while producing just as bad results as when the right wing enacts the same policies. I think that the greens are realizing that there's a finite supply of people who will go for the green narrative and they need to seek alternative platforms. But their options only include narratives that won't alienate the existing green base. So it needs to be value liberal and at most suck a limited amount of corporate dick, since values are more important than profits within the narrative. Moving towards Kok tends to make the Greens look bad because it leads to compromises that go actively against green values in energy and agricultural policy. Best case scenario, the green strategy would be building a coherent narrative that could be used to pull centrist liberals toward the left while gobbling up the corpse of SDP, whose non-pensioner voters have nothing to hold on to right now. There's a huge amount of political brownie points on offer to the first party that can enact a working economic policy that doesn't involve loving the working class with cuts and debt. TBF I don't think any party is at that point yet, but let me dream. At least Kokoomus won't be the one, because they'll fight to the death on the current juicy economic narrative that causes all the other parties take turns loving themselves over while accomplishing what Kok voters actually like.
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Apr 11, 2017 13:17
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