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What the gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:03
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quote:The declaration was drafted by 30 linguists from all four countries, through a series of regional conferences in Belgrade, Sarajevo, Podgorica and the Croatian coastal city of Split. (And yeah it's just a coincidence, obviously the etymology isn't English, but it's still funny.)
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Apr 10, 2017 23:05
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:What the gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:08
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Split is a nice city to visit. Too bad it will be burned down in a fit of nationalist denial.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:08
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:What the gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:46
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I stand by my previous statement.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:48
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I stand by my previous statement. Another example is the row between Moldavia and Romania as to whether Moldavian should be considered a separate language. Moldavian dictionaries are just Romanian dictionaries with some Russian words and idioms thrown in for a good measure.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:50
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There are 4 separate armies, right, and maybe even some navies? Issue resolved.
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Apr 11, 2017 03:09
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steinrokkan posted:Split is a nice city to visit. Split is v nice. Only downside was the cafe waiter who decided i didn't want change and just was giving him a 200 kuna tip for something that costs 25kn.
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Apr 11, 2017 04:51
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:What the gently caress. It's literally the same language because Serbs, Bosnians, and Croatians are basically the same ethnic group, the division is religious rather than ethnic (Croats are Catholic, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslim). Religious differences led to nationalist differences led to everyone claiming they have their own language even though it's literally the same language.
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Apr 11, 2017 04:58
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Kruh will never be hljeb! Kruh will never be hljeb! Крух wилл невер бе хлеб! fuck off Batman fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 05:49
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Defining a language is complex and depends not only on linguistics but also on politics. That's how it's always been and is not specific to Balkans. Despite linguistic similarities, every country has a right to call its language however they want. It's normal for Croats to call their language Croatian and Serbs to call theirs Serbian. That's as much "myth" as drawing a line on a field and saying 'this is now a border between two countries' is a "myth". Despite this common sense normally prevails and people do not translate from one language to the other - not books, not TV, and they certainly don't use interpreters. So Gobbeldygook you are in fact making it up, at least to a certain extent. I don't remember ever seeing Serbian or Bosnian or Montenegrin speaker subtitled on any Croatian TV station.
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Apr 11, 2017 10:57
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Actually, I read that in Sandžak they do this as a kind of "loophole" to delay their cases.  http://www.telegraf.rs/vesti/1342382-i-smesno-i-tuzno-nemamo-prevodioce-sa-srpskog-na-bosanski-pa-kriminalce-pustamo-na-slobodu-foto http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/drustvo/aktuelno.290.html:556339-Sestoro-prevodi-na-bosanski e: For those who don't understand the language, people in the far southwestern corner of Serbia where Bosnian is one of the official languages can conveniently claim that they don't understand Serbian and that they need the court documents to be delivered to them in Bosnian, as is technically their legal right on the grounds of regional/minority languages or whatever (most likely intended for Hungarian, Albanian and other non mutually intelligible neighboring languages), and since at the time there weren't any locally available official translators for such a dense request their case would get delayed indefinitely. The second article is about six qualified Serbian-Bosnian court translators being made available to unblock about 280 cases that were obstructed in this way. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 12:08
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According to that there is only one guy who is accredited by court to translate from Serbian to Bosnian. Must be a sweet gig.
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Apr 11, 2017 12:12
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Nationalism is a hell of a drug. Just call the language South Slavic or something that way no one can lay claim to it on nationalistic lines.
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Apr 11, 2017 12:16
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A Pale Horse posted:Nationalism is a hell of a drug. Just call the language South Slavic or something that way no one can lay claim to it on nationalistic lines.
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Apr 11, 2017 12:19
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I'm a "South Serbian" and we actually have a distinctive dialect that immediately gets you made fun of as a "hillbilly" in Belgrade. e: Croatian and Serbian have much larger internal variations than the two literary forms have differences between each other. I've effort-posted about this in the old EE thread but a Croat speaking the literary standard would have an infinitely easier time communicating with a Serb speaking the literary standard than either of them would communicating with their own countrymen speaking certain peripheral dialects. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 12:21
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A Pale Horse posted:Nationalism is a hell of a drug. Just call the language South Slavic or something that way no one can lay claim to it on nationalistic lines. Tito tried calling it Serbo-Croat and look how that turned out.
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Apr 11, 2017 13:08
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SaltyJesus posted:I'm a "South Serbian" and we actually have a distinctive dialect that immediately gets you made fun of as a "hillbilly" in Belgrade. Right, the insular way that the various languages have evolved on a colloquial level has caused them to be pretty different when it comes to day-to-day use. The "standard"/"literary" B/S/C/M are very similar, but I'd argue that proclaiming them as all the same language brings up a whole lot of classism issues in the area. And then there's the issue of what you would even call a new language. Croats wouldn't like "Serbo-Croatian", Serbs wouldn't like the opposite, Bosnians wouldn't like either option, and something like "Yugoslavian" would leave out Macedonians, not to mention every other worm in that linguistic can.
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Apr 11, 2017 13:51
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SaltyJesus posted:I'm a "South Serbian" and we actually have a distinctive dialect that immediately gets you made fun of as a "hillbilly" in Belgrade. How can such a tiny country with only 7 million people have such radically different dialects? I mean that sincerely, I want to know. It seems strange to me. Poland has nearly 40 million people and is at least 4 times the land size of Serbia (don't feel like looking it up, so I'm guessing) and there's nary a person I couldn't communicate with despite having some regional accents (Gorale, Kashubians, Silesians) and loan words (mostly from German in silesia). I mean, maybe I'd have trouble with a drunken Goral but even that I'm pretty sure I could handle. Is it an artifact of history, were the population separated from each other in some way? I know almost nothing of the history of the Balkans (shamefully) but I'd like to know.
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Apr 11, 2017 13:52
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Because the Serbian spoken in southeastern Serbia is transitional towards Bulgarian/Macedonian, Kajkavian is transitional to Slovenian, and some forms of Čakavian were spoken in areas of large Italian influence and on relatively isolated island and peninsulas. e: Also, in my hypothetical I assumed that the speakers of those dialects would speak as if they were speaking to their neighbor. Everybody will understand everybody else if they're actually trying to communicate. (By speaking closer to the "correct" way.) ee: For the record, I am of the opinion that it is, linguistically speaking, one pluricentric language. I understand the want and right to differentiate your language for political reasons by using whatever regional name but it is (imho) patently silly and immediately disprovable to claim that they are truly different languages. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 13:58
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A Pale Horse posted:How can such a tiny country with only 7 million people have such radically different dialects? I mean that sincerely, I want to know. It seems strange to me. Poland has nearly 40 million people and is at least 4 times the land size of Serbia (don't feel like looking it up, so I'm guessing) and there's nary a person I couldn't communicate with despite having some regional accents (Gorale, Kashubians, Silesians) and loan words (mostly from German in silesia). I mean, maybe I'd have trouble with a drunken Goral but even that I'm pretty sure I could handle. Is it an artifact of history, were the population separated from each other in some way? I know almost nothing of the history of the Balkans (shamefully) but I'd like to know.
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Apr 11, 2017 14:06
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A Pale Horse posted:How can such a tiny country with only 7 million people have such radically different dialects? I mean that sincerely, I want to know. It seems strange to me. Poland has nearly 40 million people and is at least 4 times the land size of Serbia (don't feel like looking it up, so I'm guessing) and there's nary a person I couldn't communicate with despite having some regional accents (Gorale, Kashubians, Silesians) and loan words (mostly from German in silesia). I mean, maybe I'd have trouble with a drunken Goral but even that I'm pretty sure I could handle. Is it an artifact of history, were the population separated from each other in some way? I know almost nothing of the history of the Balkans (shamefully) but I'd like to know.  Kurzeme and Latgale each have a dialect that is barely intelligible to the people who have not lived there for quite a while.
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Apr 11, 2017 14:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:For one, isn't Serbia pretty mountainous/hilly, particularly in the south? That has a habit of allowing for a multitude of dialects (or even languages) within a small geographical area. Conversely, Poland being moved around and along with it its people, might have reduced dialectal differences? This too. Guess where those variants are spoken (sketched very, very roughly)  What's interesting is that there are some common features to them that were preserved in neither literary form.
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Apr 11, 2017 14:13
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I'm from Slovenia and we have like 30 dialects. Many are close to vanilla slovenian, some are entirely different and will share only a word or two with the base language for the same sentence, sometimes even with different grammar. The one people across the Mura river speak is *completely* bonkers, influenced by Magyar.
Truga fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 14:20
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Latvia, 2 million population: Latgalian sounds like straight up gibberish, you mean 
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Apr 11, 2017 14:44
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Arzachel posted:Latgalian sounds like straight up gibberish, you mean 
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Apr 11, 2017 14:48
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Kū tu mauļa pascieji por munu volūdu? My favorite part about this is that if you put it in Google Translate, Google Translate just gives up.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:03
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SaltyJesus posted:My favorite part about this is that if you put it in Google Translate, Google Translate just gives up. In daily practice, however, there are rules of thumb one can follow to make sense out of most of it, given existing knowledge of Latvian.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:09
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Kū tu mauļa pascieji por munu volūdu? It sounds charming when I don't have piece together what's being said  Does Estonian or Lithuanian have any similar dialect differences?
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Apr 11, 2017 15:11
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Arzachel posted:It sounds charming when I don't have piece together what's being said
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Apr 11, 2017 15:16
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COOL CORN posted:Right, the insular way that the various languages have evolved on a colloquial level has caused them to be pretty different when it comes to day-to-day use. The "standard"/"literary" B/S/C/M are very similar, but I'd argue that proclaiming them as all the same language brings up a whole lot of classism issues in the area. And then there's the issue of what you would even call a new language. Croats wouldn't like "Serbo-Croatian", Serbs wouldn't like the opposite, Bosnians wouldn't like either option, and something like "Yugoslavian" would leave out Macedonians, not to mention every other worm in that linguistic can. Macedonians do in fact have a different language.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:18
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I think what he means to say is that if you called it Yugoslavian it wouldn't be fair to Macedonians/Slovenians who were also Yugoslavs but didn't speak that language. (fwiw They wouldn't care.)
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Apr 11, 2017 15:24
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Slovenians are hill Germans who eat horse and makadonians are some illyrians who got trapped and started speaking some proto language that just happens to sound slavic The people in between are hut people who fail the mirror test
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Apr 11, 2017 15:27
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Hot takes, presumably by an American burning with a jealousy of people with history and culture.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:30
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steinrokkan posted:Hot takes, presumably by an American burning with a jealousy of people with history and culture. that beautiful herstory and kulture of pogrom'ing jews ass struggle fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 15:40
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Arzachel posted:It sounds charming when I don't have piece together what's being said The people from our biggest island (Saaremaa) say Ö instead of Õ. My boss does that but I'm not sure if on purpose. But then there's also these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seto_dialect edit: when playing scrabble against my mother, she manages to come up with all sorts of words that I've never even heard before but the dictionary confirms it. :Z jonnypeh fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 15:48
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Serbo-Croatian is fine as one plutocentric language with 4 literary standards. The only thing that it really needs is a new name, the one that all four nations can agree on, and call it their own.
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Apr 11, 2017 17:31
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That's crazy stuff, next you're going to tell me Belorussian and Ukrainian and just dialects of Russian!
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Apr 11, 2017 18:57
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There are much bigger differences between those three than there are between Serbo-Croatian varieties.
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Apr 11, 2017 19:03
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