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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
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Majorian posted:Things don't change on a dime like that; it takes pressure from below before parties start to transform like that. The Republicans didn't immediately accede to the Tea Party's demands, either - but they still bended to their will relatively quickly. The Democrats will do the same, if we keep putting pressure on them. Just sitting out of the process and whining on dead gay comedy forums isn't going to help speed this process along, though. that is idiotic. perez said he was gonna have a 50 state strategy. how long does he need to actually be able to fund elections instead of just sitting on the sidelines with his thumb up his rear end? 20 years?  how long does it loving take the DNC to change and actually send a few bucks to downtickets? Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 08:25
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I'm with Condiv on this though. The DNC is loving worthless and the KS-04 election proves it. The whole sneak under the radar bit is the most mealy-mouthed bullshit I've heard out of them in about, oh let's say a month which is quite a lot. This coming from the same crew that insists that since the '16 Presidential election was so close nothing major needs to change, to hear that nothing could have been done to win this and all the DNC and DCCC support in the world would not have delivered that final 6%, is just aggravating and infuriating. And of course we see how committed they are to a fifty-state strategy (not at all). We can scream at them all we want but it's not going to make any difference until they're run out of the party and the only people left to scream at are ourselves.
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Apr 12, 2017 08:27
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Majorian posted:Things don't change on a dime like that; it takes sustained pressure from below before party leadership starts to transform. The Republicans didn't immediately accede to the Tea Party's demands, either - but they still bended to their will relatively quickly. The Democrats will do the same, if we keep putting pressure on them. Just sitting out of the process and whining on dead gay comedy forums isn't going to help speed this process along, though. also, i'd like if you stop intimating that i am sitting outside of the process by choice. you already know that my state and my dem party has been abandoned by the DNC. my voice cannot reach the DNC cause my state party is completely worthless to them why don't you comfortable blue-state dems take the initiative if you want the dems to win again? they might actually listen to you guys. they don't send my party more than a few scraps of money a year and then act surprised when every county goes red in presidential elections Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 08:32
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Majorian posted:Things don't change on a dime like that; it takes sustained pressure from below before party leadership starts to transform. The Republicans didn't immediately accede to the Tea Party's demands, either - but they still bended to their will relatively quickly. The Democrats will do the same, if we keep putting pressure on them. Just sitting out of the process and whining on dead gay comedy forums isn't going to help speed this process along, though.
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Apr 12, 2017 08:34
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Kilroy posted:We don't really have the luxury of waiting around for a decade while the Democrats get their poo poo together. We need them to have their poo poo together oh, about 8 or 10 years ago. We're on literally borrowed time already and while we keep sorta playing at the idea that all this talk of purges is strictly in a political sense, with global warming on the line and a neo-Nazi in the White House I'm comfortable with just regular ol' Soviet-style purges if it means we can get a party that will win elections and do something about climate change, about black people getting gunned down by cops, and about an electorate enraged by the fact they're one of the more productive workforces on the planet yet have gently caress all to show for it (and the political dysfunction that inevitably flows from all that rage). exactly
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Apr 12, 2017 08:41
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Condiv posted:that is idiotic. perez said he was gonna have a 50 state strategy. how long does he need to actually be able to fund elections instead of just sitting on the sidelines with his thumb up his rear end? 20 years? Where am I defending Perez or the DNC? I think you're reading things into my posts that aren't there. I don't have any faith in them on a personal level; their convictions are as empty as Steve Bannon's soul. But Dems and lefties need to start thinking about this poo poo transactionally. Our message to the DNC needs to be, "You either do what we tell you to do, or you lose your job." We have a lot more credibility in making that threat now than we did a year ago. Kilroy posted:We don't really have the luxury of waiting around for a decade while the Democrats get their poo poo together. Who's talking about a decade? It didn't take the Tea Party that long to take over the Republican Party. I think sustained pressure on them will get them to move in a significantly more productive direction by the time 2020 rolls around. It may not be enough to change the outcome of the Montana election (although I wouldn't write it off just yet), but if we don't give up, I don't see any reason why, by 2018, this couldn't be for the Dems what the Tea Party was for the Republicans. Condiv posted:also, i'd like if you stop intimating that i am sitting outside of the process by choice. you already know that my state and my dem party has been abandoned by the DNC. my voice cannot reach the DNC cause my state party is completely worthless to them I don't know that; I don't know the first thing about you IRL. Which state do you live in?
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Apr 12, 2017 09:01
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Hey you guys, I think that the centrist idiots have hosed off, we might have gotten to use to tearing down people in this thread we are now getting in slap fights over largely agreeing that the Dems hosed up this special election.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:03
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Majorian posted:Where am I defending Perez or the DNC? I think you're reading things into my posts that aren't there. I don't have any faith in them on a personal level; their convictions are as empty as Steve Bannon's soul. But Dems and lefties need to start thinking about this poo poo transactionally. Our message to the DNC needs to be, "You either do what we tell you to do, or you lose your job." We have a lot more credibility in making that threat now than we did a year ago. you're claiming he needs time to send a bit of cash to a downticket race, as if the dnc needed time to set that up. it's bullshit. and they know they don't lose their job. perez was the establishment hanging on to the job after they hosed up an election they should've won and hosed around in a primary when they were supposed to be a neutral party. we have no credibility making a threat to punish the DNC and they realize it. quote:I don't know that; I don't know the first thing about you IRL. Which state do you live in? until i moved out of the country i lived in oklahoma. my family lives in oklahoma. we're all democrats going back at least as far as my grandfather. i've had to live with supporting and voting for a party that hasn't had a ghost of a chance since I was born, and the worst part is it's not because there's no dems here, it's because the dems have left our state party to die. the current head of the ok dem party is hoping they start funding state level parties, but this election was yet another kick in the balls telling us that we can get hosed and dems don't give a poo poo about us
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Apr 12, 2017 09:09
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey you guys, I think that the centrist idiots have hosed off, we might have gotten to use to tearing down people in this thread we are now getting in slap fights over largely agreeing that the Dems hosed up this special election.  I think we're talking past each other, mostly, at this point. None of us here actually likes Perez, much less the rest of the DNC. But I reiterate what I said earlier in the thread: do not ascribe too much ideological rigor or zealousness to the neoliberals and centrists in the Democratic leadership circles, because these are not ideological folks. They're cowards, for the most part. Make them fear for their job security, and they will acquiesce. That is my firm belief.Condiv posted:you're claiming he needs time to send a bit of cash to a downticket race, as if the dnc needed time to set that up. it's bullshit. That's not what I meant. I meant that hopefully the closeness of the Kansas race will help inspire progressives to insist loudly on more help for the Montana special election. I don't expect Perez to move leftward on anything on his own volition. I do have hope, however, that progressives will see the closeness of Kansas as an opportunity. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 09:12
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Majorian posted:
yeah, manchin acquiesced so hard he begged people to primary him you may honestly believe the dems are going to acquiesce if we yell at them enough, but imo they wont. they didn't even acquiesce when it was in the national party's best interests and in alignment with their stated goals. the establishment will do what it wants and will ignore us until it's too late, so it's best to just bypass them as much as possible and try to leave the DNC to wither and rot away Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 09:13
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Condiv posted:yeah, manchin acquiesced so hard he begged people to primary him I said "for the most part." Manchin is a weird case, where everyone knows there's literally no one more left-wing than him that will ever get elected in WV. (at least until the Dems start backing economic populism and strong unions again) I'm more interested in talking about people like DNC leaders, though.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:15
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Remember when we were told that there were no differences between Ellison and Perez, that both would clearly subscribe to the 50-state strategy and that anybody who cared was a whiny leftist baby demanding purity tests? Good times. Also the establishment Third Way types are happy to lose rather than give up any actual power to the left. This is something that has been demostrated every time they've lost power in any nominally left of centre party in the entire western world.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:16
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Majorian posted:I said "for the most part." Manchin is a weird case, where everyone knows there's literally no one more left-wing than him that will ever get elected in WV. I'm more interested in talking about people like DNC leaders, though. you may honestly believe the dems are going to acquiesce if we yell at them enough, but imo they wont. they didn't even acquiesce when it was in the national party's best interests and in alignment with their stated goals. the establishment will do what it wants and will ignore us until it's too late, so it's best to just bypass them as much as possible and try to leave the DNC to wither and rot away
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Apr 12, 2017 09:15
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Condiv posted:you may honestly believe the dems are going to acquiesce if we yell at them enough, but imo they wont. they didn't even acquiesce when it was in the national party's best interests and in alignment with their stated goals. the establishment will do what it wants and will ignore us until it's too late, so it's best to just bypass them as much as possible and try to leave the DNC to wither and rot away That's fine, just put pressure where you think you can. What matters is making it clear to whichever representatives you have that they need to represent you. That's literally all I'm saying. I have no faith in Perez changing his stripes; please, please don't think that's what I'm going for here.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:17
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Majorian posted:That's fine, just put pressure where you think you can. What matters is making it clear to whichever representatives you have that they need to represent you. i have no representatives, aside from my state party. thanks dems for that btw. the state party is good btw, our chair voted for ellison and supported ellison all the way back in december when i last spoke with him he also didn't fall for the bad dems obvious islamophobia
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Apr 12, 2017 09:20
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Majorian I think the most frustrating thing about the Democrats, and perhaps a big reason why your comparisons to the Tea Party kinda fall flat, is that for all their other failings even establishment Republicans do seem to desire power and intend to do something with it once they acquire it. Establishment Democrats seem to want power because it looks good on a resume and because they can use it to get favors and reward their friends, but the moment it looks like they might actually be asked to do something with that power, then they start talking about the advantages of being shut out of power a la Pelosi and so on. Like, if actually doing poo poo is on the table they'd kinda rather lose the next couple of elections and set themselves up for next time when the mood of the electorate is not so strongly in favor of doing poo poo, and more in favor of stuff you might find in an Aaron Sorkin fanfic. Republican ambition is a thing the Tea Party could work with. We don't have as much of that to work with on the Democratic side. There is that comic with the Democratic and the Republican electoral strategy, where the Democrats are just sniveling weasels who will do anything for a vote, while the GOP is "more money for us; gently caress you". In fact it is often the opposite: if the GOP base wants to gently caress over minorities, ban gays from getting married or just plain ban gays altogether, and lower taxes on people who effective do not pay tax, then the Republicans are all to happy to do that poo poo. And so they win. Meanwhile if the Democratic base wants a $15 minimum wage, then Democrats get busy trying to come up with good excuses why it can't happen ever. If a progressive candidate barely loses an election in a deep red district without DNC support, Democrats are immediately spinning it as evidence the leftist wing of the party has no support nationally. And so on. For all their faults the Republicans at least want to win. They want to take over the country, really. That's a lever the Tea Party got to pull that just isn't available to progressive Democrats. Majorian posted:Make them fear for their job security, and they will acquiesce. That is my firm belief.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:20
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Condiv posted:i have no representatives, aside from my state party. thanks dems for that btw. there are some other oklahoman dems who met him and talked with him. they posted in the DPP thread last i remembered
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Apr 12, 2017 09:21
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Condiv posted:yeah, manchin acquiesced so hard he begged people to primary him Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 09:22
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Crowsbeak posted:Manchin is a lost cause. However we have had other dems who frankly should be gone who like to call themselves BLue Dogs now asking for our support. We should use that to our advantage. Also I would argue that we can't completely get rid of the DNC. Instead we need to take part in party elections and purge them so that the DNC becomes less establishment. as pugh showed, you can't even compromise with those shitheads. as soon as they're in power they will immediately stab you in the back
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Apr 12, 2017 09:25
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Kilroy posted:Majorian I think the most frustrating thing about the Democrats, and perhaps a big reason why your comparisons to the Tea Party kinda fall flat, is that for all their other failings even establishment Republicans do seem to desire power and intend to do something with it once they acquire it. Establishment Democrats seem to want power because it looks good on a resume and because they can use it to get favors and reward their friends, but the moment it looks like they might actually be asked to do something with that power, then they start talking about the advantages of being shut out of power a la Pelosi and so on. Well, wait a second there, though - you don't think Republicans do that, like, constantly? Because I guarantee you, when 2020 comes around, the refrain from Trump et al. is going to be, "WE COULDN'T MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN BECAUSE THE MEAN DEMS WOULDN'T LET US." I'm sorry, but I really don't buy this notion that the Democrats are worse than the Republicans on this. This is not a peculiarity of one party or the other; it's a feature in the system. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 09:25
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Majorian posted:Well, wait a second there, though - you don't think Republicans do that, like, constantly? Because I guarantee you, when 2020 comes around, the refrain from Trump et al. is going to be, "WE COULDN'T MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN BECAUSE THE MEAN DEMS WOULDN'T LET US." I'm sorry, but I really don't buy this notion that the Democrats are worse than the Republicans on this. This is not a peculiarity of one part or the other; it's a feature in the system. they are cause the only time dems show a backbone is when they are betraying their own base (see: obama trying to gut social security)
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Apr 12, 2017 09:27
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But the republicans will have actually tried to do what they want, and then got shot down. Versus the dems, who start from a compromised position, then argue themselves downward.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:29
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rudatron posted:But the republicans will have actually tried to do what they want, and then got shot down. I'm not sure all Tea Party activists felt the same way when their "movement" began. I think they used a lot of the same descriptors for the GOP as you, Condiv, and Kilroy are here for the Dems. I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out, though. Personally, I'm optimistic. The DNC might not change enough to our liking, but gently caress 'em. What matters are the candidates that we push through primaries.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:31
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Majorian posted:Well, wait a second there, though - you don't think Republicans do that, like, constantly? Because I guarantee you, when 2020 comes around, the refrain from Trump et al. is going to be, "WE COULDN'T MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN BECAUSE THE MEAN DEMS WOULDN'T LET US." I'm sorry, but I really don't buy this notion that the Democrats are worse than the Republicans on this. This is not a peculiarity of one part or the other; it's a feature in the system. The GOP needs a tenuous grasp on power in order to get poo poo done, or failing that make sure nobody else gets poo poo done. They nearly got huge concessions out of Obama as part of the Grand Bargain in 2011, dismantling much of the welfare state - they were not in a position really to achieve any of that at the time and the reason it didn't happen had nothing to do with Democrats, it was extremists in their own party who felt it didn't go far enough that ended up killing it.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:33
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Really, there's exactly two reasons to defend dem leadership right now, 1) you're okay with them selling out because you're pro-selling out 2) you've fallen hook, line and sinker for the lie that There Is No Alternative, austerity is the only way, etc. In either case, you should recuse yourself from politics, because you don't have backbone or integrity.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:33
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Like, assume that the Democrats take the House in 2018 and the rest of the government is basically the same as now: do you think they would wield that as effectively as the Republicans did in 2011? I doubt it.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:35
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rudatron posted:Really, there's exactly two reasons to defend dem leadership right now, 1) you're okay with them selling out because you're pro-selling out 2) you've fallen hook, line and sinker for the lie that There Is No Alternative, austerity is the only way, etc. Literally no one here is defending Dem leadership. Kilroy posted:I think there is one political party in this country with the organization and the ambition and the strategic intelligence required to wield power like they control most of the government, when in fact they control half of one branch. It isn't the Democratic party. The Democratic party needs full control of the national government and a good chunk of the state governments before you even get to the point where they're coming back to you with excuses for why they couldn't get anything accomplished. That's been the case for the past thirty or so years, but it wasn't always the case. I don't buy that they can't become the party of the working class again, or, more accurately, that the working class can't take control of it again. e: And more to the point, I don't buy that the more spineless leaders of the party can't be replaced by people with more of a backbone. The Dems have not always been this pathologically weak; I do not see why we should assume that they must always be this way, especially if we replace those in charge. Kilroy posted:Like, assume that the Democrats take the House in 2018 and the rest of the government is basically the same as now: do you think they would wield that as effectively as the Republicans did in 2011? I doubt it. That depends on whether or not Trump gets any big pieces of legislation that are as easy to target as the ACA was for Republicans. My instinct is "probably not," but they don't need to wield it as effectively as the post-Tea Party Republicans to still be a hell of a lot more effective than they've been since 1992. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 09:36
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Well that's a really low bar to clear but you're not wrong.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:39
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Kilroy posted:Well that's a really low bar to clear but you're not wrong. Yeah, I know, but you can see my point: it's still considerably better than what we've been used to out of them. A step in the right direction. And if they make those steps in the right direction, we reward them. If they don't, we replace them.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:43
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I don't think dems will change. Not really. Which is why progressive political organization must occur through an independent organizations, built from the ground up to prevent lackeys getting into positions of power. Once they are established, the dems as a party becomes superfluous, and can be dismantled or replaced. The democrat party simply becomes an instrument, a tool, something you pressure to get what you want.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:42
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The main problem with the GOP is that some of their reps are too overzealous to be practical, the main problem with Dems is that the bulk of them is contended with just trudging along. The GOP's problem would actually not be a problem at all, and would even be enviable, if their policies weren't really deeply unpopular and only achievable through underhanded tactics by cynical sociopaths. That way bringing the political process in the party to the surface and opening them to scrutiny by the rubes who actually believe those ideas to be cool and likable is catastrophic. A Democratic party with a populist left wing agenda, on the other hand, could only benefit from similarly zealous groups trying to kick the shirking party brass in the rear end.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:44
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rudatron posted:I don't think dems will change. Not really. Which is why progressive political organization must occur through an independent organizations, built from the ground up to prevent lackeys getting into positions of power. Once they are established, the dems as a party becomes superfluous, and can be dismantled or replaced. The democrat party simply becomes an instrument, a tool, something you pressure to get what you want. on the bolded part. Personally, I don't care what Democratic leaders believe in their heart of hearts. I just care about what policies they back, how they vote, and whether or not they secretly try to backstab actual progressives.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:44
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Majorian posted:Literally no one here is defending Dem leadership. Instead we've got the ones put there by  and the rest. C'est la vie.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:45
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[quote="rudatron" post="471282721 I don't think dems will change. Not really. Which is why progressive political organization must occur through an independent organizations, built from the ground up to prevent lackeys getting into positions of power. Once they are established, the dems as a party becomes superfluous, and can be dismantled or replaced. The democrat party simply becomes an instrument, a tool, something you pressure to get what you want. [/quote] I think everyone here who doesn't think their Abuela got betrayed can get behind this.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:49
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going into 2018, if you vote for a single centrist then you're a fool. they'll use what power you give them to make sure the party cannot be competitive with the republicans again
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Apr 12, 2017 09:56
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Crowsbeak posted:I think everyone here who doesn't think their Abuela got betrayed can get behind this. Granted, it would only work if there was a firewall between the leadership of that organization and the DNC and/or if that organization had leverage. Also, they better have a good PR team because the media will rip them alive if they start to deviate. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 10:04
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Ardennes posted:the media will rip them alive Could anybody ask for a better endorsement?
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Apr 12, 2017 10:10
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Ardennes posted:Granted, it would only work if there was a firewall between the leadership of that organization and the DNC and/or that organization had leverage. Also, they better have a good PR team because the media will rip them alive if they start to deviate. that and the traitorous DNC will too
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Apr 12, 2017 10:10
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Ardennes posted:Granted, it would only work if there was a firewall between the leadership of that organization and the DNC and/or that organization had leverage. Also, they better have a good PR team because the media will rip them alive if they start to deviate. No one besides loving centrist parasites trust the media. Hell, this running scared from the media is what got us here. Bernie stood up to them and he is now the most loved politician in America.
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Apr 12, 2017 10:18
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https://twitter.com/TomPerez/status/851960464582037504 drat near all the replies to this are tearing perez a new one for abandoning the 50 state strategy. i hope perez gets roasted wrt this today. also i hope his life is a living hell
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Apr 12, 2017 10:23
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