Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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Archenteron: Nov 3, 2006

Does corrosion or AC reducing abilities work on NPCs? Charms/Poison an acidic weapons buff? Add functional -s to your weapon to stack acid damage and/or debuffs per hit to opponent?

# ? Apr 12, 2017 19:43

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# ? May 30, 2024 02:09

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Speleothing posted:

5-6 turns seems short, I'd aim for 7-10. You could also cap mp discharge at 20 or 30 if people think it's too strong.

7-10 turns seems reasonable, sure. However, capping MP goes counter to the downside of draining all MP, which I think helps sell the spell instead of just being alternative Conjurations. If the spell is considered too powerful, I would either reduce the ratio of spellpower to sides (12 instead of 10) or MP to dice (0.67-0.8 die per MP) versus capping the MP spent.

For a comparison using the current formula, the current max spellpower with 52 MP available would give you 45d20, or somewhere between 5-6 max power Iron Shots (before calculating reduction from defenses or misses), making it roughly 33% less efficient at damage per MP spent. Iron Shot also has the benefit of range, splitting between targets, stopping before you spend all your MP if you kill the target, being a lower spell level, and being more efficient at lower spellpower levels. I think it should be fine.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 19:59

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Floodkiller posted:

Here's the fleshing out of the Charms spell ideas I liked:

Deep Impact/Overwhelming Strike - Level 7 Charms
Gives the Impact/Strike status effect, which lasts for 5-6 turns. If a successful melee attack is made while this effect is active, remove the status and drain all remaining MP to deal (drained MP)d(Spellpower/10) damage to the primary target of the melee attack (ex. does not affect cleaved targets). Damage is calculated separately from the melee attack. A successful melee attack is one that does not miss, even if it does no damage or is blocked. Spellpower cap of 200.

Transfer Speed - Level 5 Charms/Summoning
Temporarily lends your speed to another being. Gives the player Slow for a static amount of time and gives the target creature Haste for an amount of time based on spellpower. The player cannot cast this spell if they are already Slow. The player cannot target themselves. Cheibriados dislikes this spell.
(still working out how long Slow and Haste should last, as well as the spellpower cap)

Devastate/Shrapnel - Level 6 Charms/Earth
Enchants your weapon with a regenerating layer of rock which shatters into shrapnel upon successfully striking an enemy in melee. The shrapnel explosion is radius 1 centered on the primary target of the melee attack, and deals 3d(Spellpower/8). The explosion is unavoidable for all targets caught in the blast, but does not affect the player or the primary target of the melee attack. The explosion makes a large noise (fireball level?) whenever it occurs. The effect lasts for 10-30 turns (depending on spellpower). Spellpower cap of 200.
(need to pin down exact duration)

Still working on fleshing out Royal Sheen. Also, for Poison Magic, I'm thinking something like a modified version of Singularity that possibly fixes complaints about the original (have to discuss with devs involved with the decision to make sure), although it might be stretching the definition of Poison Magic:
Creates a radius X pool of toxic sludge, which inflicts poison + needle effect on any non-flying, non-poison immune enemies inside of it (poison stacks each turn based on rPois, needle effect only price once). Treated as shallow water. After Y turns, the center of the pool opens up and begins to drain the sludge, pulling non-flying enemies towards the center and inflicting drowning damage (respecting rDrown) while reducing radius by 1 every Z turns. Any non-flying enemy in the center takes 2-3x the drowning damage. All enemies who are unable to move when pulled by the drain deal impact damage to themselves and the monster in the square they attempted to move into regardless of flight status.

Any thoughts before I start coding any of them?
(this doesn't mean I've stopped contributing on Cyno/Bultungin/Gnoll, just something to do on the side)

These are really cool, I especially like the Poison Magic idea. That sort of spell interaction is a big missing part of Crawl's spell list, so seeing more development in that area is cool and good.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 20:04

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Archenteron posted:

Does corrosion or AC reducing abilities work on NPCs? Charms/Poison an acidic weapons buff? Add functional -s to your weapon to stack acid damage and/or debuffs per hit to opponent?

The corrosion effect only applies to monsters once, acid damage just checks for acid/corrosion resistance or immunity. That's why I was interested in the Royal Sheen idea as a reactive armor Charm spell. However, can't make it Poison or it will get immediately rejected due to "acid spells in Poison Magic" being on the Won't Do list.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 20:37

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Floodkiller posted:

The corrosion effect only applies to monsters once, acid damage just checks for acid/corrosion resistance or immunity. That's why I was interested in the Royal Sheen idea as a reactive armor Charm spell. However, can't make it Poison or it will get immediately rejected due to "acid spells in Poison Magic" being on the Won't Do list.

Where are acid spells supposed to be represented? Earth?

edit: Also, this is on the Won't Do document for anyone who complains about Paralysis. Paralysis is considered to be good explicitly because there's nothing you can do about paralysis. So the argument that paralysis is bad is never going anywhere, sadly.

Removing Paralysis
Paralysis is interesting because it is impossible to respond to after being paralyzed.

Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 12, 2017

# ? Apr 12, 2017 20:57

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Captain Monkey posted:

Where are acid spells supposed to be represented? Earth?

Currently? Evocations.

Also "Punk".

Edit: Specifically, so few things have acid resistance, and the few that do have immunity. Thus, it might as well just be a Conjurations spell and not be restricted.

Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Apr 12, 2017

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:00

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Floodkiller posted:

Currently? Evocations.

I guess that makes sense, since it's basically just magical damage at this point. That does, however, limit the ability to have cool flavor acid spells, which seems detrimental to the game in my opinion.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:02

ThermosAquaticus: Nov 9, 2013

How does Finesse interact with a weapon of speed? Okawaru has gifted a longbow of speed to my butulgin, but it is fragile, so I can't play around with it.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:03

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

ThermosAquaticus posted:

How does Finesse interact with a weapon of speed? Okawaru has gifted a longbow of speed to my butulgin, but it is fragile, so I can't play around with it.

Finesse should always just cut your current weapon speed by half to a minimum of 0.2, with the caveat that it does not stack with Haste or Berserk (it overrides both for attacks).

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:11

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Summon kills being worth half XP is still stupid! Augh!

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:23

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Captain Monkey posted:

Removing Paralysis
Paralysis is interesting because it is impossible to respond to after being paralyzed.

This is very frustrating because unless your spoiled as gently caress its not exactly telegraphed so not only can you do nothing about it, you also don't know its coming and its basically a giant gently caress you.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:23

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

You can use the 'x' key to look at every monster (and definitely should, especially if you've never seen it before!); their spell lists get narrowed down by what spells you've seen them use if they're ones with multiple, and in all cases, barring random pan lords i guess, monsters which can paralyze will have this listed in their description sheet.

Paralysis is still bullshit for a hell of a lot of reasons and absolutely not a fun or good mechanic, but the information is definitely there and in a turn-based game you've no reason not to know exactly what you're up against at all times

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:30

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

Ferrinus posted:

Summon kills being worth half XP is still stupid! Augh!

Does the Hep ghost count as a summon?

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:31

taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

someone awful. posted:

You can use the 'x' key to look at every monster (and definitely should, especially if you've never seen it before!)

This is how I finally won this game. I decided to go slow and x-v look at everything.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:32

Old Dun Cow: Sep 5, 2006

Floodkiller posted:

Any thoughts before I start coding any of them?

This is a new idea, but I was thinking the other day that charms spellpower boosting should be a scarf ego. Maybe 'of endowment' or 'of capability'. It makes sense that a hybrid could trade off cloak AC for better casting ability and scarves need to be more fun.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:33

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Cerepol posted:

This is very frustrating because unless your spoiled as gently caress its not exactly telegraphed so not only can you do nothing about it, you also don't know its coming and its basically a giant gently caress you.

Yeah, this is a symptom of the thing that half the thread complains about. This game is heavily weighted toward people who have been playing it forever and relentlessly track changelogs and always x-examine every enemy and have a nearly endless time to play the game in.

That can be a good thing, if that just means that they're better at the game, and have a higher winrate, etc. But it's often instead a super negative thing to the general population of the game, and crawl sometimes ends up so thoroughly tailored to the specific tastes of the Duvessa/minqmay types that sometimes decisions are made that alienate or frustrate large portions of the playerbase.

This thread is a really good example of minmax-apologists vs more casual players of the game. To the point where even mild disagreement or playfully pointing out silly/bad decisions causes total freakouts by the minmax crowd because they have to read words that they disagree with or deal with being teased.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:39

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

I mean, if you don't want to expect things to change or to keep up with the changelog to know what's happening, that's what stable versions are for. :psyduck:

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:42

Arcturas: Mar 30, 2011

Even changes between stable versions do that, though. I'm just coming back after playing in like 0.7 or 0.8, and the stuff I needed to look up is pretty frustrating.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:50

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

.7 was almost seven years ago -- the wiki says it was released July 4, 2010. Of course the game is going to be a lot different than it was seven years ago, it's being actively developed. Any game that's being constantly worked on is going to be different when you come back to it than it probably was the last time you played it. They post release notes with every new stable version, but I don't consider reading those "crawling through changelogs" in the same way as, say, watching/trolling through the Trunk commit logs I guess

# ? Apr 12, 2017 21:58

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Captain Monkey posted:

I guess that makes sense, since it's basically just magical damage at this point. That does, however, limit the ability to have cool flavor acid spells, which seems detrimental to the game in my opinion.

The defense is that acid spells are not much different from plain nonelemental damage.

I would argue that the flavor of corrosion to AC is quite different not only from conventional damage but from elemental damage, all of which is of the flavor "apply x damage against resist n". Fire and Cold no longer have destructive effects and neither has ancillary effects from burning or freezing except on cold-blooded creatures. Second, even if acid were NOT differentiated, encouraging creation of new spells is exactly how you get that differentiation. And there is no spell school that needs variety more than Poison.

Most "poisonous gas" is likely corrosive anyway (for example, mustard gas), especially if it comes in the form of a big green cloud. Most acids are of course highly poisonous and far more dangerous to the system when ingested or inhaled. Taking the position poison spells cannot have acid flavor is like saying air spells can't have lightning flavor.

It would all be well and good to insist on this narrow stance if Poison were a viable spell school. But it's not. Pre-Lair you are unable to damage zombies, skeletons, player ghosts, oozes, jellies, phantoms, wights, shadows, red imps, white imps, shadow imps, iron imps, necrophages, mummies, hungry ghosts, ice beasts, Menkaure, Grinder. The game as VM is either "How quickly can I transition to melee and forget my ill-chosen course of study at Pre-Crawl University" or "Will I get spells from Sif/Veh/Gozag before I die to a frigging snake?"

Should you make it to lair, you will find it crawling (and slithering) with spiny frogs, water moccasins, and black mamba, all of which have fast movement and kill casters quickly.
Not to mention Hydra. Biologically, moccasins and mamba have antibodies against their own venom but otherwise they are no more rPois than you or I. Lots of fire creatures like hellhounds and efreeti, and almost all demons and devils, are rPois for no apparent reason other than "they are magical" or maybe their fiery blood burns away poison, I dunno? Ice creatures as well, which with ossuaries means many early portals are filled with creatures you cannot affect. Then for Lair branches, most of Swamp and just about all of Snake is rPois.

It's not well designed, it needs revision, but by all means let's keep poo-pooing potential solutions based on a nebulous and largely inaccurate notion of poison "flavor"....

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:04

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

What do I know though, I just came back to my game, saw "Orb" status, forgot that just means I'm in Zot now, and ran halfway out of the level before I realized I hadn't actually picked it up.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:04

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Arcturas posted:

Even changes between stable versions do that, though. I'm just coming back after playing in like 0.7 or 0.8, and the stuff I needed to look up is pretty frustrating.

The best place to catch just the highlights is the Dungeon Crawl News Page. If you want to see all the changes that made it to official release, and only those, the this Changelog may be handy for you, otherwise it is a bit too long. Finally, there's the Dev Blog if you want to keep up on trunk, but don't want to spend too much time on it. It generally summarizes changes every 2-4 weeks. There's other sources of information if you want to be on the bleeding edge of bitching, but that's irrelevant to you.

If you're coming back after 0.7, you probably are already aware of http://crawl.develz.org/info/ but you probably aren't aware that the badwiki isn't as awful as it used to be. I actually find it useful as long as I stay away from the Strategy section. Solid 3 out of 5. On the other hand, the learndb has fallen to a 4 out of 5 - the information hasn't always been as consistent as it used to be. If you don't know exactly what you're looking for, the wiki may be a better starting point.

And if you play webtiles and see beem, subscribe! Beem is awesomely convenient irc chatbot, without all the spam from players reaching milestones.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:25

Arcturas: Mar 30, 2011

Araganzar posted:

What do I know though, I just came back to my game, saw "Orb" status, forgot that just means I'm in Zot now, and ran halfway out of the level before I realized I hadn't actually picked it up.

Yeah, this is what I mean. I have no clue what "Orb" status means and I couldn't find any way to look it up in game. I kinda ignored it and tabbed through things on my FoFi because at that point I could, but it might have mattered. I don't really mind needing to x-v new monsters (whatever those drat Mel something butterfly bees are called are really brutal), but having deadly status effects with little warning that only a tiny fraction of monsters use is silly. For instance, I like Catoblepas because they telegraph doing something horrific to you, so even if you don't really understand petrification you see a cloud of gas and know to bail.

Also yes, I know new stuff is here. But tailoring every aspect of the game to someone with perfect knowledge of every balance change and giving that player a challenge at all times is too unforgiving to new and returning players. (Apparently I was wrong about the version. I stopped playing 2012-2013-ish. Still, I admit that needing to look some stuff up was expected.)

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:26

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Arcturas posted:

Yeah, this is what I mean. I have no clue what "Orb" status means and I couldn't find any way to look it up in game. I kinda ignored it and tabbed through things on my FoFi because at that point I could, but it might have mattered.

For Fo, the only effect is a visual hallucination that might cause you to see small purple letters on your character summary. It makes all blinks random and increases the delay before teleporting.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:29

Mu.: Sep 15, 2003; The thing about Forevereal Modding Mu is that he loves editing files and wants others to download his permanent mods. Fully editing, rich text, altering files and loving it. Download his mods and enjoy it.

Arcturas posted:

Yeah, this is what I mean. I have no clue what "Orb" status means and I couldn't find any way to look it up in game.

Press ? then / then T, and then type orb.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:32

Archenteron: Nov 3, 2006

Ok, well, idea #2: for charms poison: Madness Toxin, a bolt/smite/cloud/eat/idk that can replicate the Needle of Frenzys berserk + attack others effect on an enemy?

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:52

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

The existence of fire storm and glaciate really make devs pooh-poohing the idea of acid spells ridiculous. You just make acid spells deal part poison damage and part acid damage, such that poison-resistant creatures take less overall, and acid-resistant creatures don't suffer any corrosion stacks.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:55

Arcturas: Mar 30, 2011

LordSloth, thanks for the info links. Those are handy.

Everyone else, thanks for the other info. PS FoFi, if you can get past lair and learn how to always be running away, is hilariously fun.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 22:57

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Theoretically, Acid is supposed to be for Fedhas & Jiyva.

In all actuality, the lack of high level Poison spells seems more like an intentional decision, since non-acid things have been suggested many times.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 23:51

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

someone awful. posted:

You can use the 'x' key to look at every monster (and definitely should, especially if you've never seen it before!); their spell lists get narrowed down by what spells you've seen them use if they're ones with multiple, and in all cases, barring random pan lords i guess, monsters which can paralyze will have this listed in their description sheet.

Paralysis is still bullshit for a hell of a lot of reasons and absolutely not a fun or good mechanic, but the information is definitely there and in a turn-based game you've no reason not to know exactly what you're up against at all times

I keep forgetting they improved looking at stuff. It used to give like no information and I still don't expect it too.

# ? Apr 12, 2017 23:56

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

Araganzar posted:

What do I know though, I just came back to my game, saw "Orb" status, forgot that just means I'm in Zot now, and ran halfway out of the level before I realized I hadn't actually picked it up.

I do agree that that status should be renamed (maybe 'Zot') because I got confused as hell the first time I saw that too.

# ? Apr 13, 2017 03:27

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

I am having the roughest game and I don't know how to salvage it

code:

araganzar the Severer (Hill Orc Summoner)          Turns: 32086, Time: 02:26:20
Health: 138/138    AC: 32    Str: 18    XL:     17   Next: 16%
Magic:  1/36       EV: 13    Int: 23    God:    Hepliaklqana [******]
Gold:   1283       SH:  0    Dex: 18    Spells: 8 memorised, 10 levels left
 
rFire  + . .      SeeInvis .    a - +7 broad axe
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    D - +4 chain mail {rF+}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  .          Spirit   .    h - +3 hat of Pondering {ponderous, MR+ MP+10 In
rElec  .          Reflect  .    J - +0 cloak
rCorr  .          Harm     .    w - +2 pair of gloves
MR     ++...                    y - +2 pair of boots
Stlth  ..........               z - amulet of regeneration {+regen, !d}
                                u - ring of the Aged Dances {Int+3 Dex+7}
                                T - +3 ring of protection

This is the worst setup I have ever had post Orc and Lair. I'm on Shoals 2 and:
- no decent broad or battle axe found
- no other appealing weapons
- no ego cloak, gloves, or boots
- only ego helm is Pondering
- no evocable rage or invis
- best shield is a +0 buckler
- only artefact weapon in game is a crappy distort flail that abyssed me

My resists are horrible:
- only swap rings are rc and sInv
- only MR in the game is on the Hat of Pondering
- only rPois is the +2 robe "Heilodd" {rPois Int+4 Dex-4} (306 gold)
- only other artefact armor is +0 scale with *Corrode
- only artefact jewerly is the amulet of Icrateym {Inacc rC+ Str+4} (350 gold)
- only rElec is lol sorry what's rElec we never heard of that

How am I supposed to do anything without rPois, rElec, or MR? I am getting rocked by basic encounters in shoals and using up my teleports on others. My other branch is Snake which is goddamn impossible right now. Down to 2 pots of curing (thanks, no rpois or MR!). Sojobo is camping Depths entry.

1 enchant armor, no enchant weapon, no advanced spell books. I am thinking about putting on guardian spirit, getting spec weapon up, using a +3 drain battleaxe, and trying to power through Shoals 1-3 and Elf 1-2 to see if I get anything that helps me advance. Any thoughts?

# ? Apr 14, 2017 16:34

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

I wonder if you could convince the devs to allow for Poison/Necromancy interactions by adding miasma as an effect.

Something like Conjurations/Poison/Necromancy: Poison Arrow that causes the targeted enemy to explode if it dies to the poison, dealing poison damage in a one-square radius and creating clouds of miasma.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 16:40

megane: Jun 20, 2008

The reason acid spells are on that list is that acid is boring. Linley didn't expect players to use it, and as a result barely anything resists it, so it's just non-elemental damage 99% of the time. We have plenty of spells that do that already, including 2.5 entire schools of magic.

If you come up with a cool spell, nobody's going to give a poo poo what the flavour is. But usually the extent of the thinking is "poison -> acid LOL CMON DEVS" so it got put on the list.

Corrosion is okay as a twist, I guess, but ultimately the effect is just "more damage." How is Acid Bolt going to be meaningfully different from Fire Bolt?

Really, the problem is that there are 6 different schools focused on dealing damage, differentiated only by a handful of weird spells and what resists them. And it's very easy to splash between them, so even those few differences get bulldozed over by just grabbing spells outside your speciality. There's not really any way to fix this short of completely revamping like 40 different spells, of course.

It's true that Poison is sort of crap as a school, because a) blanket resists, though that's changed a little now that some demons don't resist it, and b) kiting things to death is awful. But at the same time, those are the only things that make Poison any different from Earth, Air, Ice, Fire, and Conj. It's not the sort of problem you can fix by just adding one or two high-level spells, and if those high-level spells are just "Iron Shot, but yellow," what's the point?

E: I don't mean to be dismissive or whatever, but it's easy to go "OBVIOUSLY the answer is X but the DEVS hate fun and creativity," and hard to actually come up with a solid, workable spell that does what you're suggesting.

megane fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Apr 14, 2017

# ? Apr 14, 2017 17:43

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Acid bolt is corrosive, so it corrodes things and makes them weaker. It starts off quite strong but only penetrates if it actually made holes/corroded enough.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 18:00

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Araganzar posted:

- no decent broad or battle axe found ... a +3 drain battleaxe

How am I supposed to do anything without rPois, rElec, or MR?

But a draining battleaxe is a good weapon. It's a miles better than an unbranded broadaxe for sure.

I don't think you especially need any of those resistances for snake 1-3 if you're even halfway good at killing things. The only condition is taking it slowly because shock serpents are jerks that definitely need to be isolated when missing rElec. Resistant elementals and weapons plus hexing elves makes Elf seem most dangerous for you currently.

I'd say Shoals > Snake > Elf unless you'd have to gatecrash a stair party or there are a ton of merfolk avatars/satyrs.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 17:59

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Arivia posted:

Acid bolt is corrosive, so it corrodes things and makes them weaker. It starts off quite strong but only penetrates if it actually made holes/corroded enough.

Except that only applies to the player. Corrosion on monsters is a flat -8 AC that is only applied once.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 18:15

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Floodkiller posted:

Except that only applies to the player. Corrosion on monsters is a flat -8 AC that is only applied once.

Great so a decreasing chance to apply that. 50% on the first, 25% on the second, so forth and so on.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 19:23

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Arivia posted:

Great so a decreasing chance to apply that. 50% on the first, 25% on the second, so forth and so on.

I might be misinterpreting what you mean, but by "applied once" I mean that a monster's corrosion status is binary: they are corroded or they are not. If they are, they have -8 AC.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 19:37

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# ? May 30, 2024 02:09

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Floodkiller posted:

I might be misinterpreting what you mean, but by "applied once" I mean that a monster's corrosion status is binary: they are corroded or they are not. If they are, they have -8 AC.

No, no, you were right. My original phrasing was talking about monsters being corroded enough (aka more than a binary state.) What I was saying in response is that you could model it by having decreased corrosion chance for each monster hit by the bolt. 50% for the first monster, if that's successful it hits the second monster, 25% chance to corrode that one and continue through, etc etc.

# ? Apr 14, 2017 19:42

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