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It's not about this case, it's about a different one.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:20
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Pick posted:It's not about this case, it's about a different one. I had no idea there was more than one somewhat famous case involving that. 
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Apr 13, 2017 21:21
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whiteyfats posted:I had no idea there was more than one somewhat famous case involving that. It's actually not a case I'd heard about before and there's not a lot about it online. I think in part because it just... god. Imagine "Dear Zachary" but more violent, prolonged, senseless, and involving more victims.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:26
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There's a detail I remember from news coverage that isn't mentioned there. Wasn't she buried clutching her toy stuffed dolphin? My younger son is 9. I can't imagine. 
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Apr 13, 2017 21:37
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Jesus. Could have done with a warning that the victim was only 9.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:37
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pookel posted:There's a detail I remember from news coverage that isn't mentioned there. Wasn't she buried clutching her toy stuffed dolphin? The one episode involves a 12-year-old boy begging for his father's life while his dad, an apparently lovely and wonderful single father, does everything he can to convince their kidnappers to let his boy go. The father has his throat cut and has to watch his son shot once, only to survive, but then be shot again when he keeps struggling. Not yet dead, the father's throat is cut a second time and he is thrown into a pit on top of his boy. He is buried alive on his son's mangled body, but he manages to drag his son out and attempt resuscitation but it is too late. The motive turns out to be a pittance of money to use as starter funds for a drug ring, and they were just one checkbox on a list of people suspected to have cash lying around. And they weren't the first, because as it happens, these were the same perpetrator who had... well. The story goes on.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:48
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Like, I watch true crime shows and poo poo all the time because I'm weird and paranoid, but this is the first one where I briefly fainted.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:52
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Oh, I think we've read about those people in this thread before. That'd be the one where the dashcam video showed the man crawling out of the grave with the slit throat, that came out last year.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:11
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pookel posted:Oh, I think we've read about those people in this thread before. That'd be the one where the dashcam video showed the man crawling out of the grave with the slit throat, that came out last year. Yeah, that one. I'm surprised since I didn't see a wikipedia article about it, for example.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:13
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pookel posted:There's a detail I remember from news coverage that isn't mentioned there. Wasn't she buried clutching her toy stuffed dolphin? I believe so.
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Apr 13, 2017 23:44
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A pretty good CBC documentary on missing person Emma Fillipoff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3FPSmlCmJk It includes extracts of her diaries, photos and interviews with experts, key people and friends and family.
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Apr 14, 2017 10:26
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Cayleigh Elise covers the Boy in the Box mystery, 1957: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PnYFY0g8y4
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Apr 15, 2017 12:41
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Cayleigh Elise covers the Boy in the Box mystery, 1957: Heartbreaking case.
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Apr 15, 2017 12:52
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Vanity Fair Confidential has an episode on thread favorite Ken Brennan aka that long island stereotype who solved a murder based on two seconds of security footage
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Apr 15, 2017 15:41
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Oh hey, the most upsetting thing I've read all week.
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Apr 15, 2017 15:51
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Here's a creepy serial killer I hadn't hear of before, Chyrel Jolls, who is actually the only lady serial killer I have ever heard of outside of Aileen Wurnos: http://crimefeed.com/2016/06/stranger-candy-teenager-chyrel-jolls-kidnap-allegedly-murder-children/ She was 15 at the time she was arrested. The whole story's pretty crazy and I don't want to spoil it--especially the twist at the end. I AM GRANDO has a new favorite as of 17:06 on Apr 15, 2017 |
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Apr 15, 2017 17:03
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Jack Gladney posted:She was 15 at the time she was arrested. The whole story's pretty crazy and I don't want to spoil it--especially the twist at the end. Jack Gladney posted:especially the twist at the end. fffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUCK Maybe I should have expected it, but I don't think I took the possibility seriously. That's, uh. That's sure a story.
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Apr 15, 2017 17:27
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Jack Gladney posted:Here's a creepy serial killer I hadn't hear of before, Chyrel Jolls, who is actually the only lady serial killer I have ever heard of outside of Aileen Wurnos: I'm generally pro letting your kids play outside/unsupervised but not at three, godamn. The past is another world.
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Apr 15, 2017 17:33
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Shady Amish Terror posted:fffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUCK She, spent ten years beginning at 15 years of age in psychiatric care, and by all accounts avoided any criminal activity after release. Seems like an good enough ending.
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Apr 15, 2017 17:47
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Nobody knows where she went or what happened to her. There's no record of her after she left the hospital.
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Apr 15, 2017 17:51
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steinrokkan posted:She, spent ten years beginning at 15 years of age in psychiatric care, and by all accounts avoided any criminal activity after release. Seems like an good enough ending. Oh, I grant you, it's not terrible or anything, it's just...weird. That whole story is loving weird. Not just because of Jack Gladney posted:Nobody knows where she went or what happened to her. There's no record of her after she left the hospital. which isn't...inherently bad, just a little concerning in context (oh, she tried to lure children away with candy while we're trying to figure out this serial child-kidnapper! What a scamp!), but it's the nail in the coffin so to speak after Werong Bustope posted:I'm generally pro letting your kids play outside/unsupervised but not at three, godamn. The past is another world. The story's like an incredibly involved cultural safari into the past packed into a very short article. The ending was the knockout punchline underscoring how alien the proceedings felt. Shady Amish Terror has a new favorite as of 18:08 on Apr 15, 2017 |
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Apr 15, 2017 18:06
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Maybe she learned about which victims to choose or how to exploit the authorities' disbelief? I guess I'm a glass-half-empty kind of person.
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Apr 15, 2017 21:28
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Macrowave Oven posted:Maybe she learned about which victims to choose or how to exploit the authorities' disbelief? I guess I'm a glass-half-empty kind of person. Or possibly the decades of psychiatric care and help allowed her to break fully with her past, and live a peaceful existence. I guess I'm just not in love with the American Prison Complex.
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Apr 15, 2017 21:32
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She sounds like she was treated horribly and was really troubled. Children who were just as demented have recovered with therapy in the past.
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Apr 15, 2017 21:34
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Captain Monkey posted:Or possibly the decades of psychiatric care and help allowed her to break fully with her past, and live a peaceful existence. I guess I'm just not in love with the American Prison Complex. You don't have to be in love with it to realize that's an insultingly light sentence for murdering children.
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Apr 15, 2017 23:53
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whiteyfats posted:You don't have to be in love with it to realize that's an insultingly light sentence for murdering children. She was 15, she spent about 15 years in intensive psychiatric treatment. What's insulting about taking half her life to rehabilitate and reassess?
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Apr 16, 2017 00:21
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Because 15 years for murdering a child is sickening?
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Apr 16, 2017 02:04
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whiteyfats posted:More female serial killers. I've never known quite what to make of the Tinning case. Obvious mental illness on her part, but the husband's detachment from all of it. Also, Anjette Lyles. The City Confidential piece on her case can be found on YouTube. Nannie Doss. Amy Archer-Gilligan. Alas, the true crime book about her, The Devil's Rooming House, is one of the worst books I have ever read.
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Apr 16, 2017 02:35
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RC and Moon Pie posted:I've never known quite what to make of the Tinning case. Obvious mental illness on her part, but the husband's detachment from all of it. What was wrong with the book? As far Tinning goes, I feel like there was at least several people who had to have been turning a blind eye to it.
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Apr 16, 2017 02:43
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whiteyfats posted:Because 15 years for murdering a child is sickening? clearly we should have locked a child up for life and not treated the thing that was wrong with her that lead to the crime happening so that she could be rehabilitated and lead a productive life in society because as the prison industrial complex proves, retribution loving works
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Apr 16, 2017 04:10
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:clearly we should have locked a child up for life and not treated the thing that was wrong with her that lead to the crime happening so that she could be rehabilitated and lead a productive life in society Why do baby killers deserve rehabilitation? It's not like she got caught with some weed or stole a car. poo poo, with that attitude, why arrest anybody at all? "Ah, you know you did bad. Those multiple children don't matter as much as your precious feelings."
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Apr 16, 2017 04:16
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its a net benefit for society if you can rehabilitate someone with obvious mental illness and have them become a productive citizen than if you spend hundos of thousands of taxpayer dollars keeping them in jail forever just for retribution
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Apr 16, 2017 04:30
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whiteyfats posted:What was wrong with the book? Very poorly edited. The author spends a whole lot of time on a heat wave that at best should be a passing mention to give flavor to the area. It had nothing to do with the murders. Loads of editorializing. I remember a passage from the trial that was included. The next paragraph was simply an italicized "Liar." And for some reason it bugged me that the author used the phrase "lawyered up" when he was attempting to be quite serious. The Goodreads reviews sum up all the issues quite well.
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Apr 16, 2017 04:46
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:clearly we should have locked a child up for life and not treated the thing that was wrong with her that lead to the crime happening so that she could be rehabilitated and lead a productive life in society The US Prison Industrial Complex is more based on a mixed theory of retribution and deterrence than pure retribution. whiteyfats posted:Why do baby killers deserve rehabilitation? It's not like she got caught with some weed or stole a car. What punishment would be acceptable? The average person lives what 80 years? She spent what roughly 10 years in a psychiatric hospital during the 60s and 70s? That's about an eighth of her life. Should it have been 20 years? 30? Should we have killed a fifteen year old? As to "why do baby killers deserve rehabilitation" well, considering that she was found to not be competent to stand trial multiple times, it seems pretty plausible that she was severely mentally disturbed. I normally look at severe mental illness as being a mitigating factor in punishing people for a crime, even if it does not completely absolve responsibility. And considering she was 15 and we generally forbid 15 year olds from a number of activities (e.g. age of consent laws, laws regarding drivers licenses, voting age laws, laws relating limiting their independence in relation to their parents), it also seems that we normally consider young people to not be competent to perform a number of acts, so that seems to imply that they might be less criminally responsible as well. Those two mitigating factors (severe mental illness and youth) seem to me good reason to reduce whatever her sentence might be. Also, just to be clear, I'm all on the retributionist side. I think rehabilitation as the purpose of law is bad, since the obvious purpose of law is to punish those who commit crimes. But that punishment needs to be 1) proportionate to the crime and 2) the object of the punishment needs to be in a fit state to be punished (e.g. I would oppose executing a Nazi who has Alzheimer's because they would not be in a fit state). And of course mental state has a strong impact on what the crime in question is -- it's the difference between murder and manslaughter, for instance. But the state likely has other interests (e.g. making sure society functions, has economically productive members, betters its members, etc.) which might outweigh punishing someone in some circumstances and might make rehabilitation at the very least allowable.
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Apr 16, 2017 05:04
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Reflections85 posted:The US Prison Industrial Complex is more based on a mixed theory of retribution and deterrence than pure retribution. "Just to be clear I'm a bloodthirsty psychopath but even I think she shouldn't have been thrown to the lions" Also the Prison Industrial Complex still doesn't loving work so at some point maybe consider that your idea has failed and it's time to start treating people who do a crime like theyre human beings who did a bad thing and not like loving morlocks who dared step above ground, like as a baseline and not an exception BENGHAZI 2 has a new favorite as of 05:25 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 05:21
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:"Just to be clear I'm a bloodthirsty psychopath but even I think she shouldn't have been thrown to the lions" A central claim of retributionism is proportionality. The carceral state does not follow proportionality, so I obviously oppose it, as any good retributionist should. The "failure" here has to do with mandatory minimums set significantly too high combined with numerous acts that ought not be treated as a crime being treated as a crime, an incredible amount of racism that would almost be impossible to describe, and a belief that the point of punishment is to deter crime rather than to punish criminals. I think those are good reasons to argue that even if retributionism is morally correct, it might be good for it to not be legally prescribed (compare "not lying is morally correct, but outside of certain circumstances, the state shouldn't punish you). But I would still be uncomfortable with a nonretributionist system because that leads easily to justifications of punishing innocents if it has good outcomes (contra retribution, which says it is never okay to punish innocents regardless of the outcome). Also lol at "people who commit serious crimes should be punished in proportion to the nature of their crime and with respect to their competency" = "bloodthirsty sociopath"
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Apr 16, 2017 05:34
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She was in a mental hospital, which is the place for somebody like that. It's scary that they let her go because we understand very little about sociopathy in 2017. In the 60s it was very unlikely that they could have helped her in any way except making her better at faking normal emotions. An open-ended psych hold seems cruel, but history is also full of serial killers who just pick right back up killing the day they get out, even if 20 years have passed.
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Apr 16, 2017 05:43
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I would like to believe that murderers can be reformed, but I think that the risk to the public is almost always too high to release them. Better to have ten guilty murderers spend life in jail than release nine truly reformed persons but be wrong about the tenth, who kills an innocent.
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Apr 16, 2017 05:51
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Jack Gladney posted:She was in a mental hospital, which is the place for somebody like that. It's scary that they let her go because we understand very little about sociopathy in 2017. In the 60s it was very unlikely that they could have helped her in any way except making her better at faking normal emotions. But apparently she never did. If you assume everyone will, and then hold them forever, you will never be able to test whether or not that's true, which apparently it isn't. Which is no surprise, again, because children with, for example, reactive attachment disorder or have been shown to recover with therapy.
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Apr 16, 2017 06:35
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