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Bongo Bill posted:It doesn't, but the conversation began with the applicability of KotOR2's themes to those of The Last Jedi. I mean, if you're going to try to compare a 40 hour long RPG with a 2 minute teaser and see how those themes compare to each other then be my guest. I simply remarked that the conversation reminded me of a minor detail in KOTOR 2, and now we're here, desperately trying to understand what this dude is going on about.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:31
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My biggest beef with the KotoR games is they played it too "safe". Everything is aesthetically exactly like starwars with a slight knockoff style adjustment. They're not TIE Fighters with solar panels around a central cockpit, they're SITH Fighters with solar panels around a central cockpit. They're not shiny white Stormtroopers, they're shiny chrome SITH troopers. Knockoff stardestroyers, knock off R2D2s, knockoff Millenium Falcon, knock off pod racing, knock off Darth Vader, Knock off LukeIAmYourFather reveal etc etc etc. I get that doing something too far out wouldn't look Star Wars to the masses, but if thats the case, why set it 4000 years in the past and make it seem like nothing has improved (or has downright degraded. I always thought the idea of technology being completely stagnate was dumb. That and KotoR 2 tried to inject too much hamfisted Shades of Grey into my Good vs Evil Space Wizards. Avellone does some decent stuff, but I did not like what he did to Star Wars. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 23:44
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sassassin posted:"pop culture understanding" is not "pop culture knowledge" If you're going to quibble, at least make sure your correction isn't equally weird. 'Pop culture understanding' of something that is the very essence of pop culture is fine. I mean, what is it opposed to? What is the type of understanding one should have of a series of extremely popular films while making a popular video game? This reminds me of Jimmy Carr's gag about the absurdity of being opposed to Scientology because it's a 'made up religion'
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Apr 16, 2017 23:45
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I can imagine Snoke just chomping at the bit hearing both the Emperor and Vader were dead with the Rule of Two business going on.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:49
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KOTOR was pretty ballsy for the time considering if you wanted to go full evil you could do things like make your Wookiee party member, who has a life debt to you, kill his best friend because you asked and he has to. It got pretty drat dark for a Star Wars property at the time.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:58
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I started to play KotR2 and the first thing it put in front of me was a computer with a bunch of dossiers on my crew or something and I got bored reading them and quit. I love some backstory and all, but it might just be the most boring intro I've ever seen to a game.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:08
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So I just re-watched TFA and I can only assume the first two acts of TLJ is gonna be parallel plotlines of Rey hanging with Luke and Poe following Snoke's next move from the resistance base and trying to rouse his boi Finn from his coma by talking bro talk by his bedside. Either way it seems like Poe will get a shitload of spotlight which is cool. It'd be good to see Isaacs given more chance to flex those acting chops, he didn't really have the opportunity in TFA.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:12
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Galaga Galaxian posted:My biggest beef with the KotoR games is they played it too "safe". Everything is aesthetically exactly like starwars with a slight knockoff style adjustment. They're not TIE Fighters with solar panels around a central cockpit, they're SITH Fighters with solar panels around a central cockpit. They're not shiny white Stormtroopers, they're shiny chrome SITH troopers. Knockoff stardestroyers, knock off R2D2s, knockoff Millenium Falcon, knock off pod racing, knock off Darth Vader, Knock off LukeIAmYourFather reveal etc etc etc. Doesn't: quote:KotoR 2 tried to inject too much [x] into my Good vs Evil Space Wizards. Exactly show why quote:My biggest beef with the KotoR games is they played it too "safe". Everything is aesthetically exactly like starwars with a slight knockoff style adjustment. happens? Like...exactly? I mean...your entire post is "I don't like that they don't change enough things for my liking. They changed too many things for my liking" in more sentences. You are that guy.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:40
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The safe comment was about aesthetics only. I don't care if I am "that guy" anyways, Kotor was lovely star wars IMO.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:48
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Ive not played Kotor2 in ages since at the time my impression was the crux of its arguement was a mess if positions to justify saying "gently caress the force" but didnt the force have an explicit will, or at least discussed as having it, as well as operating in ways that are counter to its presentation in the films?
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Apr 17, 2017 01:12
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I read a lot of Ze Pollack's threads about KotOR2 and kind of came away with the impression that Kreia is someone who read Newton and decided "we have to destroy gravity!" In other words, very little effort to actually write the perspective of someone who perceives the Force as an aspect of their life and world, rather than as a fantasy element in a fictional universe. Also that fictional universe is probably Planescape, where killing gods is a hobby and you can unbelieve reality. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 01:18
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Snowman_McK posted:If you're going to quibble, at least make sure your correction isn't equally weird. This has already been answered but there's a difference between understanding the parts of the films that have entered into public consciousness (what a lightsaber is, there is a dark side and a Like I can tell you Of Mice And Men is about Lenny who wants some rabbits and murders Curly's wife so George shoots him (spoilers) but I haven't a clue what Steinbeck's book is actually about beyond those superficial elements. If I wrote a sequel where George has survivor's guilt and finds Curly's crushed hand on an alien planet it would be based on a pop culture understanding of Of Mice and Men, but it wouldn't be an Of Mice and Men story, even though you can buy it now on Amazon with exactly that on the cover. KotOR 2 is a takedown/deconstruction/hot-take on themes and ideas that don't really exist in Star Wars. The closest it gets is less cutting than that which already appears in 5 of the 6 George Lucas films. The language of Star Wars (visuals & sounds, planet names etc.) was appropriated to tell a different story, about RPG mechanics and moral relativism. It's more closely related thematically to other Obsidian games (pre-Avellone departure) than anything Star Wars. The Force that Kreia hates isn't The Force we know and love. The game was okay except for the disaster of a last act and I didn't get off the first space station when I tried to play it again last year,. Its contributions to Wookieepedia (that weren't whitewashed by Bioware in TOR) are as important to understanding Star Wars as the entry for breasts.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:20
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Tell me about the rabbits, George. Rabbits, Lenny, are a pathway to abilities many consider to be... unnatural.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:23
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sassassin posted:This has already been answered but there's a difference between understanding the parts of the films that have entered into public consciousness (what a lightsaber is, there is a dark side and a Importantly, this is not a bad thing about the game itself.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:30
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Hodgepodge posted:Tell me about the rabbits, George. George, after shooting Lennie (with lightning): "Power! UNLIMITED POWER!!"
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Apr 17, 2017 01:35
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sassassin posted:what a lightsaber is, there is a dark side and a light not-dark side of The Force, there are Jedi and Sith and Rebel Scum That is Star Wars. You've just described it. The light and the dark side, conformity vs self determination, peace vs war. That's the whole thing. It's a beautifully simple franchise. Your Steinbeck thing is weird, since you described the major plot beats of that book. From that, even someone who's not read it can also interpret most of the major themes. It's just a question of whether they've done so.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:36
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Snowman_McK posted:That is Star Wars. You've just described it. The light and the dark side, conformity vs self determination, peace vs war. That's the whole thing. It's a beautifully simple franchise. The "light side" doesn't appear in Star Wars until TFA. If Star Wars was really that simple we wouldn't have had multiple ~1000 page threads about it.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:38
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TFA doesn't even mention a "Light Side." The phrase is just "The Light," which could well be a noun.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:42
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sassassin posted:The "light side" doesn't appear in Star Wars until TFA. Fine, good and evil then. Do you really think the length of SA threads is a good indicator of a work's complexity?
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Apr 17, 2017 01:44
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Big Beef City posted:George, after shooting Lennie (with lightning): "Power! UNLIMITED POWER!!" I would definitely read about Lennie's rampage against capitalism with godlike powers after the end of Of Mice and Men. The thing about that book's themes is that you can derive half of them from reading the poem the title alludes to.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:44
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Snowman_McK posted:Do you really think the length of SA threads is a good indicator of a work's complexity? In this case I do, yes. These threads have been very interesting reading over the years.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:47
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Hodgepodge posted:I read a lot of Ze Pollack's threads about KotOR2 and kind of came away with the impression that Kreia is someone who read Newton and decided "we have to destroy gravity!" This is a very succinct way of putting what I always found extremely silly about KotOR 2.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:59
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So did a single cool or interesting thing come out of SWCO other than the trailer?
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Apr 17, 2017 02:07
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Hodgepodge posted:I wonder if he'll be as poo poo at fighting as Palpatine was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yoda is the one who escaped. Palpatine is not conquerable by violence.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:14
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sassassin posted:In this case I do, yes. These threads have been very interesting reading over the years. Fair enough. But on the light side not being in the movies, no, it's not explicitly said, but when the baddies are definitively 'the dark side' and the heroes aren't, what are they?
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Apr 17, 2017 02:16
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Snowman_McK posted:Fair enough. But on the light side not being in the movies, no, it's not explicitly said, but when the baddies are definitively 'the dark side' and the heroes aren't, what are they? The films don't seem to assert a dualistic metaphysics.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:21
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Bongo Bill posted:The films don't seem to assert a dualistic metaphysics. "That's the dark side, do this instead" is pretty dualistic. "The force is never used for attack" while the bad guy keeps choking people with it is also pretty dualistic, if only by implication. Yoda does depict as a 'wrong way/right way' thing. And the wrong way is called 'the dark side'
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Apr 17, 2017 02:25
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yoda is the one who escaped. Palpatine is not conquerable by violence. Another goon mentioned the novelization last time this came up, where Yoda decides that he's an avatar of the dark side or something, but that contradicts the actual confrontation we are shown. Palpatine starts running away after they exchange force blasts, before heading up into the senate chamber. At that point, he also resorts to contending that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Throughout the senate chamber, his goal is to get away, which is why he doesn't press the attack. Even that opportunity is created by Yoda overwhelming his Force Lighting, which blasts them both back. His actual confidence and will to fight are obliterated by Yoda in a matter of minutes. Palpatine isn't conquerable by violence at that point because he can just run away. Also, in every other fight in the series, he relies on Vader to save his rear end. He successfully taunts Luke into an attack which would have killed him had Vader not stopped him; the point being that he wants Luke and Vader to fight. He only attacks Luke once he's defenseless. He's fully aware that Luke will beat him in a fight, he has foreseen that Luke can destroy him. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 02:30
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Bongo Bill posted:The films don't seem to assert a dualistic metaphysics. It's a Manichean sort of dualism, the Dark Side is a Bad Thing that undermines something so good that it doesn't even have to be called "Good." The real secret is that they call it the Dark Side because it is a reflection of the aspects of life that they don't understand and therefore fear. If there is a "Light," then those aspects are no longer obscured and frightening. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 02:32
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Snowman_McK posted:Fair enough. But on the light side not being in the movies, no, it's not explicitly said, but when the baddies are definitively 'the dark side' and the heroes aren't, what are they? When Palpatine consults Anakin, he tells him that the Jedi council is 'hiding' things from him. Not that they don't 'know' the dark side teachings, only that they don't share it. Same as he probably would know many teachings of the Jedi, only chooses not to use them, or forgoes them for whatever reason (it's easier to do evil stuff? idk). That the Jedi don't use these evil powers, and are essentially IN power and have been, and are on the side of the 'good' government that's been in power for a long time, using them for justice, etc, makes them de facto good guys and 'the light' by default. I dunno that it needs saying, they are actively 'not being bad' by not being evil. e: I guess maybe I don't fully understand the question. My take on it was "SuperMan can fly around the earth fast enough to reverse its rotation to save mankind and does so. That's good. He's good! How come when SuperBadMan does it to kill mankind he's considered bad and SuperMan gets no credit?" Big Beef City fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 02:37
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Also, it's really easy to decide that "balance" is moral nihilism if you're coming from lovely Dragonlance novels. Those are about as good as some Mormons writing up their D&D campaign is going to get. With more cultural literacy, the "mean" is obviously the actual foundation of morality. The "golden mean," in the West, the "middle path" in the East, etc. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 02:43
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Dragonlance and most DnD novels feature bizarre torturer logic which results in morality where it is necessary and right to eternally drat people for not wanting to believe in gods who will eternally drat them.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:52
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I don't care for the "light side" idea mostly, I think, because it puts it on equal semantic footing with the dark side. Which leads to the idea that they're really just two different extremes, the truth is in the middle, and "Grey Jedi" nonsense. In the movies, there's no equality between light and dark. The dark side always loses. It might triumph in the short term (quicker, easier, more seductive), but in the end it always consumes itself. It will always exist in the sense that there will always be evil in people's hearts, but it's not as an equal side in a cosmic balance. It's an aberration, and its entire purpose in the story is to be overcome and defeated. Luke doesn't succeed by realizing that Vader has a point and maybe the Rebels and Empire are both a little right, he wins by seeing those dark parts of Vader in himself and triumphing over them, replacing selfish fear and anger with love and forgiveness. Balance is achieved by acknowledging and rejecting the darkness (the old Jedi's problem is forgetting to do the first one). Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 03:00
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Sorry if anyone has already talked about this, but I can't read through 300+ comments. So in the new episode 8 commercial Luke says it's time for the jedi to end. Everyone is assuming that is some big thing. But it doesn't make a lot of sense because we know that the jedi in the title: "The last jedi" is plural. So obviously Luke trains someone (Rey) to be another jedi. I'm thinking that if that line is actually in the movie it's at the beginning when Luke is all depressed and Rey convinces him to train her after that. So the jedi aren't actually ended? Does this make sense?
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Apr 17, 2017 03:03
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Rian Johnson said he doesn't think of it as plural.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:13
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Barudak posted:Dragonlance and most DnD novels feature bizarre torturer logic which results in morality where it is necessary and right to eternally drat people for not wanting to believe in gods who will eternally drat them. Without fail, that sort of story ends up in the same place as KotR2, deciding that the fantasy elements have to be destroyed and rejected. Even the freaking Mormons end up there at the end of Dragons of Summer Flame.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:18
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The person trying to destroy the force is the antagonist. You stop her from doing this, not support her goal.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:23
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Kreia was mostly right, but the Force isn't the source of the galaxy's problems. People are, but especially the people who use the Force.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:50
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Barudak posted:Dragonlance and most DnD novels feature bizarre torturer logic which results in morality where it is necessary and right to eternally drat people for not wanting to believe in gods who will eternally drat them. I have some bad news for you about a large chunk of the real world's population. 
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Apr 17, 2017 03:50
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Beeez posted:Rian Johnson said he doesn't think of it as plural. Either a bunch of characters die in this film or spacetoaster is right. Even right after Rogue One, I'm siding with spacetoaster here.
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Apr 17, 2017 04:03
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