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CottonWolf posted:It'd be a neat dodge, but it has two problems. 1. Culprit [x] killed them later, at some point. Doesn't matter when, just that they are killed before now. Hell, they were poisoned during breakfast, I don't know. It doesn't matter. As long as they weren't killed last night, why would it matter? 2. The conspiracy did not include the murders. Fake deaths, no murders. The actual deaths were caused later by someone involved in the original conspiracy without actually informing the others. edit: also, the difference between Meta-Battler and piece-Battler.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:16
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Finally, now that all that incompetence is gone the next three episodes should be much better.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:22
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tiistai posted:That's not a red that has been said in the story and I don't understand why you guys keep repeating it. This last update actually gave a pretty thorough dump of red regarding the decalogue as Battler flailed his way through the fight, for anyone looking to argue interpretations: Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be someone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!! Knox's 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. Knox's 3rd: It is forbidden for hidden passages to EXIST! Passages that the detective cannot find are hidden PASSAGES. Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!! Knox's 6th: It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE!! Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the CULPRIT!! Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES! Battler never got around to accusing an exotic foreigner of using their mystic powers to commit the crime, so we were denied a chance to red regarding Knox's 5th, but the others were all covered.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:31
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So how was Rosa murdered between 12 and 1 as they're claiming when she didn't show up until one? Also, it's rampant bullshit that red truth from witches is allowed to stand on its own when red truth from Battler can't. Knox should be fighting against Berns statements about what happened in the manor just as hard as she fights against Battlers, but of course she's furniture so she's totally full of poo poo about actually believing her own rules. And yes, obviously Kinzo doesn't have an alibi and Battler could have pushed to also go over the murders of Krauss and Hideyoshi, which would have at the very least bought him time to think. But incompetence, yadda yadda. I also don't know why he got stabbed her, since Natsuhi and Beatrice were the ones on trial here, but I guess the answer is "because witches".
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Apr 17, 2017 22:34
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It's been a really busy two weeks for me at work (gently caress you too, semana santa), but now that that's over I can truly jump in again! For the most part, I agree with curiouscat. I think there's something to the sentiment Ronove expressed earlier this episode—that this game "did not have love." What that seems to mean when we "turn the chessboard over" is that the mastermind-piece, Sayo, isn't motivated by her unrequited love for Battler-slash-furniture angst this time. Rather, as has been shown by the mysterious caller, she's motivated by revenge against Natsuhi. Obviously we can see that Natsuhi has become the object of a very controlled conspiracy. The story has revealed that she's holding onto two very big secrets this round: the lost baby and the death of Kinzo. So if we consider how that framing can dictate the characters' actions this time, I think that possibly the truth is that she and Erika are being manipulated by the family; Krauss may have been blackmailed into going along with it, or he may have truly been kidnapped in order to isolate Natsuhi and get her to spill the beans to the rest of the family. As we saw in the latest episode, meta-Battler still frustratingly can't grasp his sin, which is the reason for the killings and the key to this mystery. If he could, he would be able to articulate the reason why Natsuhi is not the culprit, and why she is the scapegoat here. I think he's getting there, since it seems like his gut is telling him that she isn't the killer after all. He just needs to make the leap into understanding how and why the true culprit would have a grudge against both him and Natsuhi. There are more holes as well. 1) If Erika listened to the other room all night, how was Natsuhi able to silently kill everyone without her knowing? 2) When did everyone truly die and where did their corpses end up? 3) It was established that Piece-Battler's POV is unreliable, so his testimony as it related to anyone being dead is shaky at best. At worst, he is actively lying in order to implicate his aunt. edit: yeah, Knox's 5th "Chinaman rule" would probably not be valid here because the chorus of "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo, [known Chinaman]" is an actual plot point. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 22:40
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Knox's 5th is not used in Umineko, as it's mainly a reaction to social norms from 1930s Britain. Since this has happened twice in the last day or two already, have a new rule to add to your lists: Prof's 1st: It is forbidden for players to use Red Truth which has not been presented in the STORY. If you base an argument off of the red truth, and that red truth has not appeared in an update in the LP, your argument will not be ACCEPTED.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:42
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Tender Child Loins posted:There are more holes as well. 1) If Erika listened to the other room all night, how was Natsuhi able to silently kill everyone without her knowing? 2) When did everyone truly die and where did their corpses end up? 3) It was established that Piece-Battler's POV is unreliable, so his testimony as it related to anyone being dead is shaky at best. At worst, he is actively lying in order to implicate his aunt. Erika started listening at 3 am, and the prosecution believed that all of the murders were completed before 1 am. Somehow. And Genji had to die before his room was sealed, though Eva did that sealing. If he was actually dead; the red text in this update was once again "no one misidentified a corpse" and therefore still useless.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:46
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Qrr posted:Erika started listening at 3 am, and the prosecution believed that all of the murders were completed before 1 am. Somehow. And Genji had to die before his room was sealed, though Eva did that sealing. If he was actually dead; the red text in this update was once again "no one misidentified a corpse" and therefore still useless. Then how did Natsuhi enter the guesthouse without being noticed? I feel like the circumstantial evidence against her only applies if she is a literal ninja.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:50
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Tender Child Loins posted:Then how did Natsuhi enter the guesthouse without being noticed? I feel like the circumstantial evidence against her only applies if she is a literal ninja. They're saying Natsuhi entered between 12 and 1, when Erika was "distracted". Then she murdered some people, including the one who didn't even get there until after 1, and then she either left before 1 or waited til morning to somehow leave. Honestly Erika has pretty thoroughly ignored how Natsuhi could have done it and focused on how everyone else couldn't have done it. Because Erika is incompetent.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:52
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Tender Child Loins posted:Then how did Natsuhi enter the guesthouse without being noticed? I feel like the circumstantial evidence against her only applies if she is a literal ninja. It is well-documented that ninjutsu does not count as real magic. 
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Apr 17, 2017 22:52
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oblongmeow posted:This last update actually gave a pretty thorough dump of red regarding the decalogue as Battler flailed his way through the fight, for anyone looking to argue interpretations: Yeah. Don't assume that the Ten Wedges of the Witch-Hunting Archbishop Knox are exactly the same as Msgr. Knox's Decalogue. ProfessorProf posted:Knox's 5th is not used in Umineko, as it's mainly a reaction to social norms from 1930s Britain. Also perhaps because Kinzo is pretty much the exact kind of person that the 5th would concern: a strange Asian man with inscrutable motives, whatever it may be you wouldn't put it past him. (edit: ah, beaten by TCL) tiistai fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 22:57
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Qrr posted:Honestly Erika has pretty thoroughly ignored how Natsuhi could have done it and focused on how everyone else couldn't have done it. Because Erika is incompetent. Thing is, opportunity is the only thing that makes this a complicated crime. The most basic formulation is, "Go into room, slit throats, wait until morning, exit room". It's not that hard to see how anyone could have done it physically. Focusing on how everyone else couldn't have done it is a smart play if all you care about is getting a conviction (and we know it is, since everyone's happy to ignore the fact that Natsuhi's objectively not the culprit).
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Apr 17, 2017 23:13
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I believe the theory is that Natsuhi entered into the guesthouse second floor between the hours of 24:00 and 1:00, and was the only person with an opportunity to do so. After that, she killed the cousins, as well as Rosa (who entered later), and left after 3:00 when everyone had entered their rooms and could no longer see the hallway. In the interim time, she was hiding in one of the other locked guestrooms, having used Genji's key to open it. I submit that this is similarly possible for Krauss, who was used as a piece by the culprit. Krauss was assisting someone else in being the mystery caller, and was further assisted by Genji. Following the last call to Natsuhi, the real culprit killed Krauss, and they are the ones directly responsible for Hideyoshi's murder.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:16
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tiistai posted:That's not a red that has been said in the story and I don't understand why you guys keep repeating it. Probably my fault. I posted the original version of Knox's rules, and that particular rule is part of the first commandment. Umineko's version conveniently omits that part. I'm still willing to use it as a conjecture for the purposes of considering solutions, of course, but we can't use it as evidence in situations like this. Tender Child Loins posted:Then how did Natsuhi enter the guesthouse without being noticed? I feel like the circumstantial evidence against her only applies if she is a literal ninja. Assuming I believed in her guilt, which I don't, it looks like this: 1. Until 24:00, Erika is with the cousins in their room playing cards, and therefore they are alive until that time. 2. At 24:00, Erika goes downstairs to the lounge and remains there until 3:00 with Nanjo. 3. Between 24:00 and 1:00, Erika is discussing mysteries with Nanjo and not paying attention to the door of the Guest House. Her seals remain in the place on the windows. 4. Natsuhi receives her phone call, then immediately goes to Genji's room and kills him. 5. Natsuhi leaves the manor and goes to the Guest House. Once there, she either immediately murders the cousins or hides in the room waiting for her chance (probably the latter). 6. Rosa arrives at 1:00 and goes upstairs. 7. Natsuhi murders Rosa and anyone she didn't murder in step 5. 8. Natsuhi hides out elsewhere on the second floor of the Guest House until Battler screams. 9. While everyone is investigating the murder scene, Natsuhi returns to the mansion. The timing is tight, and it relies on people being distracted at the right moment, but it's not impossible.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:18
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Natsuhi lost her mind when Kinzo died and she learned the truth of her husband's debts. She began hallucinating mysterious phone calls from a dead child, as well as witches and demons. During one of these episodes while hallucinating she committed the crimes, but, because she was unaware of her actions at the time she's not criminally responsible and thus can't be convicted of murder. But honestly even if we get Natsuhi off the hook, won't we just be proving that witches are real? I thought that was like, the anti-goal?
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Apr 17, 2017 23:29
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Amidiri posted:Natsuhi lost her mind when Kinzo died and she learned the truth of her husband's debts. She began hallucinating mysterious phone calls from a dead child, as well as witches and demons. During one of these episodes while hallucinating she committed the crimes, but, because she was unaware of her actions at the time she's not criminally responsible and thus can't be convicted of murder. It just needs to be someone else. One of the "dead" people or someone else's alibi isn't as strong as they think. What if one of the "dead" people was pretending, and then one of the people who found the corpses finished them off? Then you'd even be able to say that no one identified a living person as a corpse (Which would be much more useful red than we have had so far). Man, there is just so much supernatural means being used in this trial. Anyone pretending that Knoxs second actually applies here is being completely absurd.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:37
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Cyouni posted:and left after 3:00 Erika would've heard it. Detective's authority, son
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Apr 17, 2017 23:38
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Amidiri posted:But honestly even if we get Natsuhi off the hook, won't we just be proving that witches are real? I thought that was like, the anti-goal? Battler's goals have shifted lately. He wants to be the one to disprove the witch; he won't let anyone else do it before he does. I mean, unless they do and he ends up impaled on a stake or something. Of course, our goals remain constant.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:38
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We have to redefine what "disprove the witch" means as well. It's more like, "Who is Beatrice?" More than just her true name, but why does she exist?
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Apr 17, 2017 23:53
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For the purpose of the game, disproving her simply means showing how the crimes could be committed by a human being. Battler seems to believe that'll show him the truth about Beatrice, too, and there's likely something to that.
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Apr 18, 2017 00:12
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tiistai posted:Erika would've heard it. The intellectual rapist was too busy creeping on Battler's room to not miss anything that happened in that room. This does not include the hallway outside. Any solution where she leaves before 1 has the problem of Rosa being alive, where any solution that happens at body discovery time has really sketchy time circumstances if we add in the discovery time of Genji's body and her being notified about it.
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Apr 18, 2017 00:14
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curiousCat posted:1. Culprit [x] killed them later, at some point. Doesn't matter when, just that they are killed before now. Hell, they were poisoned during breakfast, I don't know. It doesn't matter. As long as they weren't killed last night, why would it matter? It just means that the entire narrative of the second day is wrong. That's not a knock against the theory on a conceptual level, it just means that we know literally nothing about what's happening post the first night other than what's in the red text. (Though I hope your theory's wrong, as I've said before that I think a mass conspiracy would be the least satisfying conclusion to this.)
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Apr 18, 2017 01:31
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CottonWolf posted:(Though I hope your theory's wrong, as I've said before that I think a mass conspiracy would be the least satisfying conclusion to this.) Now I'm betting it's that for this exact reason.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:35
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ZiegeDame posted:Now I'm betting it's that for this exact reason.  Don't conspire to upset me, Umineko.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:37
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I don't remember who said it, but the goal here, in this game, appears to be "punish Natsuhi". And I think it's reasonable to assume at the very least, of the adults, they would all easily be willing to go in on something that would make Natsuhi admit guilt.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:44
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Battler solving the epitaph doesn't seem to be important at the end of the day.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:13
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Why are you all arguing this? A witch did it. Beatrice commit all the murders It's so simple, a witch did it, the Ushiromiya family is innocent Please, the witch did it, how is it not obvious by now
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Apr 18, 2017 02:16
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If we accept magic is real, that means everyone is innocent and what's wrong with that? Magic is real.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:25
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Tired Moritz posted:If we accept magic is real, that means everyone is innocent and what's wrong with that? On the contrary; if we accept magic is real, then we also accept that some people - or witches - can use magic for foul ends, such as murder. That's why Dlanor is here, after all, to punish the people who would do just that.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:38
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Cyouni posted:The intellectual rapist was too busy creeping on Battler's room to not miss anything that happened in that room. This does not include the hallway outside. They were all in the same room, though, Battler and the victims.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:52
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Tired Moritz posted:If we accept magic is real, that means everyone is innocent and what's wrong with that? If magic is real, then the witches need to be tried for murder. Lots and lots and lots of murder. I don't know the details of the Japanese justice system, but I imagine that if you kill someone and then magically resurrect them and kill them again that's 2 counts of homicide. But of course we have it in red that witches didn't do it in quite a lot of places ("no one could get into this room" includes magic rabbits). Sure, they claim that the red doesn't apply to them, but they also claim that the red is inherently true. Pick one, witches! Even if I did accept magic I still wouldn't accept inconsistency!
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Apr 18, 2017 03:23
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CottonWolf posted:
Not Umineko. Lambdadelta. She's the one controlling this lovely game devoid of love.
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Apr 18, 2017 03:33
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tiistai posted:They were all in the same room, though, Battler and the victims. Are there not other guestrooms? In the scenario I propose, the victims are dead when Battler enters and Erika starts listening, and the killer is hiding out in another room opened with a master key.
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Apr 18, 2017 03:33
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Cyouni posted:Are there not other guestrooms? In the scenario I propose, the victims are dead when Battler enters and Erika starts listening, and the killer is hiding out in another room opened with a master key. Ah, yeah, sorry. Could work, I suppose. The only rooms on the second floor that I can remember having been mentioned are the room where Nanjo usually sleeps, the cousins' room and the next room over where Erika was, but even if we assumed those three were the only ones, you could argue the killer went into Nanjo's room and slipped out with or without him knowing. So yeah, I would acknowledge that you could call Natsuhi/Krauss just an accomplice even though she/he did most of the murders. You've proven it was possible for them to be murderers. EP5 solved!
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Apr 18, 2017 04:01
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 BGM: Discolor The final riddle... the 'why dunnit'. Why did they commit the crime? The motive. In third-rate mysteries, there's no need to uncover this. After all, even if you don't expose the motive, the culprit will just confess it when all's said and done. However, Furudo Erika was first-rate, so she would expose even this. Natsuhi was being confined in the parlor, under everyone's watchful gazes. Then, Erika made use of everyone to diligently and persistently search all places, even Natsuhi's room, for clues about her motive.  Everyone remained silent, urging her to continue... Erika tossed some of Natsuhi's possessions that had been 'confiscated' onto the table...  "First, these are past diaries that were discovered in Natsuhi-san's room. They have barely been used at all in recent years, but they describe in detail the period shortly after she became a part of the Ushiromiya family." "Most of them were locked, but in order to find the full truth behind this crime, I used my authority, which everyone has acknowledged, to destroy the locks on all of them." "...H, how barbaric... Reading... another person's diary..." "If we're barbaric, what does that make you, murderer?!! A criminal like you has no right to privacy!!" "And this is what I found from these diaries. Natsuhi-san ended up married to Krauss-san due to special circumstances. I imagine that all of you here know much more about this than I do. Natsuhi-san and Krauss-san were not married because of love or as a normal arranged marriage. If anything, it was more like taking a hostage." "Th, that is not true!!"  "Natsuhi-san. Right here, you've already acknowledged that you were a hostage. Kumasawa-san, you have served Natsuhi-san since the time she first came here, right? Could you tell me about what it was like at the time?" "...Y, yes, that's correct. I did catch wind of something similar to what you describe... I think that by now, only Doctor Nanjo and I know of the details regarding Madam's marriage..." "Very true... That was during Kinzo-san's golden era, when he did whatever he pleased... He defeated all of his enemies and expanded his financial power. Natsuhi-san's family was one of those enemies."As though the time to talk had suddenly come at hand, Kumasawa and Nanjo openly delved into territory that should never have been touched upon again... This was concerning the period during which Kinzo was most feared for his ferocity. It has been said that, though Kinzo had many assets and connections, he held a grudge after being looked down upon by members in the elite as being an upstart. Because of this, apparently, Kinzo wanted to find Krauss a wife from a noble family and use this to raise the Ushiromiya family's status... Then, he overcame Natsuhi's family in a financial struggle, and proposed that a marriage be performed as a method of reconciliation. And the person he picked... was Natsuhi. Natsuhi had been raised to be clean and pure in a family of Shinto priests--making her a true noble lady. By choosing her, not only did Kinzo cause them the worst possible humiliation, he also won what he considered to be a nice trophy. So that marriage proposal was humiliating to Natsuhi from the very beginning...  "Therefore, since the time Natsuhi-san first took the name Ushiromiya Natsuhi, she has held a strong resentment against the Ushiromiya family. What do you have to say, Natsuhi-san? Do you, acknowledge this?"All of the cold gazes turned to face Natsuhi...  "Y, yes, it's true that I thought that at first... I thought I was being forced into a marriage without love, a hostage under the guise of a bride..." "However, my husband... never viewed me as a mere hostage... He understood what I had gone through and gave me compassion and affection... My husband... was the only person who could understand me...!" "...I see. That makes sense. And there are many scenes in your diaries showing that Krauss-san knew of your difficulties and showed consideration." "However, on page 47 of this diary, you describe these moments as being unpleasant, correct?" "Let me read aloud. 'When Krauss tries to show consideration, it only makes me feel more wretched. Sometimes, I think he might even be trying to humiliate me further'. Therefore, we can tell that Natsuhi-san , repaid her husband's consideration with contempt." "W, wait...! Yes, I may have thought that at the beginning...! Back when I was still overwhelmed with unease, I couldn't accept his consideration and wrote of my distrust from time to time...! But I eventually realized he was sincere and grew to accept his feelings...!" "Well, nothing like that appears in any of these diaries." "I, I never even wrote it down, those feelings were so secret...!" "Judging by many diverse bits of evidence and testimony, it's clear that you despised your husband. And there exists no evidence that you eventually accepted his feelings, as you claim." "...I, I loved my husband...!!" "You can't find any testimony or evidence that can be used to elevate that statement to the level of red truth, right?" "D, does anyone need evidence to say they're in love...?!" "You can't trust anything besides the red truth...! Statements that aren't red don't count as evidence at all, and they can't be trusted at all! All non-red letters are falsehoods that exist to deceive me! 'I love him'? Who would believe that when spoken with the white text? No non-red words can ever be trusted!! All I can trust in this world are the red truth and the pieces of evidence I offer to my master to gain it!!"  "...What a pitiful person... I see that you've never truly loved someone..." "Romance is unnecessary for a detective. I don't think I've ever used the word romance except to explain the motive for murder." "No matter what you say, we loved each other...!! I should be apologizing to my husband for always writing down my complaints and nothing else...! But I have devoted my heart to him...!! Even if I can't prove it, that is the truth!!"  "That's right!! I can't even count the number of times I've heard you complain...!!" "Oh, and you've never talked behind Hideyoshi-san's back...?!" "Dammit, you killed my husband!! How dare you say that?!! Die! Die and apologize to my husband!!" "Please cease your violence, Eva-san. This is now the precious moment where I question and convict the culprit. It's not yours, okay?" "Well then. Over the next several years, she appeared to have gotten used to her new way of life, but in actuality, an intense hatred still lurked in her heart. Taking that into consideration, there would be nothing odd at all about her deciding to take revenge." "D, don't act like you know what I'm thinking...!!"Each time Erika read Natsuhi's diaries, one after another, she exposed more of Natsuhi's emotions during those painful days. Natsuhi hadn't written them to leave those words behind. She had written to forget those memories and seal them away. That's why she had written down her feelings during those painful days, locked them up, and sealed them away for all eternity. However, Erika claimed that these were Natsuhi's true, hidden feelings that had been locked away and concealed. Since it had already been 'concluded' that Natsuhi was a murderer, everyone accepted Erika's claim. By this point, the red truth wasn't even necessary to establish Natsuhi's motive. As long as the reason seemed plausible, everyone would believe it. No matter how much Natsuhi might object, no one would believe her. No one could accept the truth Natsuhi spoke of, about the days she had spent loving her husband. That had been painted over by a false truth, in which she hated her husband and swore revenge against him... The pen of the gods that composes the truth had been given to Erika. "And so what?! Who gives a drat about your past?!! Murderer, murdereeeeeer!!" "S, stop that...! I can understand how Natsuhi-san felt...!" "I always thought this day would come, eventually... Poor thing, poor thing..." "I think she's just one of the pitiable victims of Father's wild life." "I knew of the pain in Madam's heart... I always tried to support her... but I failed, and look what has happened..." "...I don't... even understand... the emotions of love and hate." "...You will, someday. It can become a reason to live... and also a reason to kill." "..." "...I, is Aunt Natsuhi... really the culprit...?" BGM: None  "Wh, what? Hey, are you serious...?! Why didn't you say something that important sooner?!!" "Natsuhi-san. The truth is, there is one person besides you for whom the crime was possible. If you truly claim that you aren't the culprit, it means that person must be the culprit." "...Huh...?" "Who is it...?! Who...?!" BGM: Bread of Life "...Ah..." "Early this morning, Kinzo-san went outside through the window of the third floor study, and his location is unknown. Isn't that right, Battler-san?" "...Gah..." "Just like Natsuhi-san, Kinzo-san has no alibi whatsoever. The truth is, for this crime, it was possible for Kinzo-san to be the culprit as well." "I just assumed that he never existed in the first place, so I totally forgot about him until just now. Allow me to apologize."She didn't look shy or apologetic in the slightest. Erika bowed in as unpleasant a manner as ever... She had held a grudge ever since her defeat in the study battle... "Natsuhi-san, you gained Kinzo-san's trust and are the person who served closest to him, right? So, shouldn't you know better than anyone else? This incident is actually the crime of the family head, carried out by Ushiromiya Kinzo-san." "Y, you dare... call Father... a criminal...?" "Don't worry. I have prepared more than enough evidence and testimony to explain the 'why dunnit' if Kinzo-san was actually the culprit. If you say, for example, that you have put yourself on the line to cover for Kinzo's crime, I am more than capable of supporting you." "Ever since the late period of the author Ellery Queen, even the theory created by the detective can sometimes change the plot itself. You really can't afford to be careless in this day and age." "...I won't let you... treat Father like the culprit!!" "Natsuhi-san. Calm down, place your hand on your chest, and think carefully. If you accuse Kinzo-san of being the culprit, this entire case will be resolved. You will no longer be held accountable for another person's actions, and your honor will be restored."In other words, by pushing the crime onto Kinzo, Natsuhi would be saved... However...  Of course, Natsuhi knew that she wasn't the culprit. And she also knew that Kinzo wasn't. So being framed herself and pushing the blame onto Kinzo were both unacceptable, unbearable outcomes.  "Are you sure? As I have already established quite thoroughly, alibis have been proven for everyone except you. If you will not accuse Kinzo-san, then this time, it really will be clear that you are the culprit, and that will become the truth, right...?" "If you intend to label me as the culprit and call that your own personal truth, then do whatever you like...! I am sure that God knows of my innocence...! Eventually, he will prove it!!"If it came to a choice between her and Kinzo being framed... Natsuhi would sacrifice herself. Perhaps... that was her way... of protecting the Ushiromiya family honor. "...Aunt... Natsuhi..." "And I even gave you a chance..." This future where your name will eventually be cleared... doesn't exist for any of you... not for any of the pieces on this board. Natsuhi... had made her decision. If they were going to call her the culprit, she would let them. She boldly rejected the thought of selling Kinzo's honor to gain a momentary truth where she wasn't the culprit... And, therefore... The tale was woven with her as the culprit. In the future, if the accusations against her are proven false. This tale will probably be rewritten... However, that future will never come.  Even if I am a good person until my death... If some heartless person after my death overwrites the records and says that I wasn't a good person, and if that is shared with everyone else... Then even all the goodness in which I lived my life will be overwritten easily. And so, I think... I must live as a good person for all eternity... "...If you claim that Kinzo-san was not the culprit, he will need an alibi which proves that the crime was impossible for him. Otherwise, we cannot truly be certain that you are the culprit, Natsuhi-san."Erika has probably known for a long time. Kinzo is nothing more than an illusion to make the inheritance problem more uncertain. However, it would be very hard to prove that he was an illusion. The only way to do this would be to confirm Kinzo's death, but as has been made known by the red truth in previous games, Kinzo died a long time ago. And in this 5th game, his corpse hasn't even appeared. In a situation like this, it wouldn't be easy to absolutely prove his death... If Kinzo's death was confirmed, it would practically erase that defeat in the study. It was the only way Erika had of removing the humiliation of that loss. And there was something that could confirm Kinzo's death almost as certainly as real proof. And that was...'the confession of the culprit'. It would mean having Natsuhi herself acknowledge that Kinzo no longer existed in this world. That way, it would be acknowledged that Erika's reasoning in the study was correct, that loss would be painted over, and it would be rewritten as Erika's victory...  BGM: Hikari Beato had disappeared by having her existence denied, and her minions had gone too. In this cathedral that they had disappeared from, only Natsuhi and the witches convicting her remained.  "So, you still claim that Kinzo is alive and remains somewhere on this island...?" "That's correct...! Father is in good health...! No matter what anyone says, I will not change my statement...!" "The red truth from the previous games says that Kinzo is already dead. But that's not enough to satisfy you, right, Bern?" "...Yeah, that's right. I'm after a perfect victory. So there's nothing interesting about getting a checkmate just because Kinzo's death has been confirmed by the red. I want to win by forcing Natsuhi to say that she's resigned. *giggle*giggle*giggle*!" "Then why don't you try it? Show us what you've got." "My master, let us now achieve a perfect victory...!!" "Of course. Natsuhi. You say that Kinzo is certainly alive, but you don't know where he is, correct?" "Yes, that's right...! Father left through the window and his location is unknown...! He is so troublesome sometimes...!"  "...? Well, that's true... he was a corpse after all. " "...No, I'm sorry. That's right, totally right. I won't butt in. It sounds interesting, so keep going." "Y, yes, my master...!! I searched for Kinzo all over the premises outside the mansion...! However, I was unable to find him...!"Because of the detective's authority, Erika could 'find all clues'. Therefore, if Erika was unable to find 'a hint that Kinzo existed outside the mansion', it was the same as proving that Kinzo didn't exist outside the mansion. Therefore, Bernkastel repeated that truth of Erika's...  "H, how could I know...?! After all, think of the weather. There would be nothing strange about him leaving the courtyard to hide somewhere in the mansion and dry the rain off...!" "Pfft, *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*. From this point forwards, I will repeat the same thing several times. I'll give you many chances for an honorable surrender. If you're too stubborn, you'll lose even your true honor." "...N, no matter how you threaten me, I will not give in...!!" "*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*. I just love teasing pieces like you. Then, let us continue."  "However, there was nowhere he could have been hiding. We didn't catch any trace of Dad on the third floor." "So then, where is he, Natsuhi-san?" "I, I don't know...! If he isn't on the third floor, what if he's hiding in the basement...?" "Ah, yes, the basement. We searched all of that suspicious basement, including the boiler room and the underground storeroom." "Yes, I searched too...! I didn't see Father anywhere...!" "I'll say it again. Where is Kinzo-san, Natsuhi-san?" "I, in that case, he was probably on the first floor or the second floor...!!" "I see, process of elimination does tell us that, doesn't it? We then thoroughly searched the first floor. And the result?" "...Nope. We were unable to find Father." "I'll say it again. Where was Kinzo-san, Natsuhi-san?" "Th, then he was probably hiding on the second floor...!! How should I know where Father was hiding?!" "Are you sure about that...? Do you really not know where Kinzo-san was hiding...?" "M, Madam knows... where Kinzo was hiding...?!" "...That's... insane..." "That... can't be true..."Both Shannon and Kanon knew that Kinzo was already dead. So they didn't have a clue how Erika would use a phantom of a person who didn't exist to corner Natsuhi...   "I accept that red truth." "...Natsuhi. Kinzo should be somewhere on the second floor. Will you still not tell us where he's hiding...?" "N, no matter how many times you ask, it won't change the fact that I don't know!" "Erika. Start from the beginning and go in order, investigating the entire second floor. Use the detective's authority to avoid missing a single clue and to see through all types of hidden doors and hidden rooms...!" "Yes, my master...!! That Natsuhi-san's pretty dumb, isn't she...? She still can't see where we're going with this." "*giggle*. No need to talk more than is necessary. Come on, Erika. Take everyone with you and begin the investigation...!" BGM: Smile-less Soiree Even for rooms that were thought to have nothing at all to do with the crime, Erika did not relax her search in the slightest. Her search was thorough in every single room as they moved through them all... "So, you still won't tell us where Kinzo-san is hiding?" "Stop saying that! How many times do I have to say that I don't know...?!" "Natsuhi-san. Even if we keep searching, at this rate, we won't ever be able to find Kinzo-san, correct?" "...?!"Of course. Kinzo doesn't exist. No matter how long this search continues, it's just a waste of time. This was known by Erika, the witch's piece, and Natsuhi, the one who knew the truth... "In that case, this search will end at the room on the far end of that corridor. In other words, it will have been proven that Kinzo wasn't in any of the rooms except that one. What do you think about that?"He isn't on the third floor or the first floor or the basement, and he isn't in any of the rooms on the second floor except the one at the end. So if he really did exist inside the mansion, it had been proven that he could only exist in that room at the end. In other words, this was Hempel's Raven. Because it had been established that a 'living Kinzo' couldn't exist anywhere except the final room at the end of the corridor, that automatically meant that a 'living Kinzo' existed in that final room... And that room at the end of the corridor was...   "Which room was at the end of the corridor, again?"Lambdadelta was munching on some popcorn. "That's Natsuhi's room, Lady Lambdadelta...!!" "...In other words, Kinzo had no place to hide except inside Natsuhi's room. *giggle* *giggle* *giggle*! Do I need to say it in red?" "Of course...!"  "I, isn't this my room?!! And where exactly in my room do you claim Father is hiding...?!"In a rage, Natsuhi unlocked the door to her room and pointed inside. Of course, Kinzo was nowhere to be seen. "Do you see Father anywhere in here?! Look!!" "...I see, looks like he isn't there. Did he realize we were coming and escape out the window?"If Kinzo wasn't in this last room, it meant that he didn't exist anywhere. 'There was no living Kinzo outside the mansion'. 'There was no living Kinzo inside the mansion'. Therefore... 'No living Kinzo existed'. However, Erika didn't make that argument. She had made that move herself, but she didn't make it checkmate... It was because Bernkastel didn't want to win by cornering Natsuhi with the red truth... she wanted to force Natsuhi to admit to a humiliating resignation... "I have not only been searching for Kinzo-san himself all this time. I have been looking for signs that Kinzo-san hid somewhere between 24:00 and the morning. And no such signs have existed." "It means the checkmate of red truth has finally cornered the piece known as, Kinzo's phantom inside Natsuhi's room." "Hey, Natsuhi-san. This means you were with Kinzo in this room until morning. Do you still claim that you didn't know where he was?" "I'll acknowledge it with the red truth...!! During the night, between 24:00 and morning, a living Kinzo could not have existed anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!! I permit you to use this truth to advance your argument about how he could only have existed in Natsuhi's room!" "A plea bargain. Hey, Natsuhi. Even someone as stupid as you must have realized the fix you're in now. This is your last chance. Make Kinzo the culprit. Call the Ushiromiya family head a criminal and crush the head's honor to protect yourself. If you show that you have the guts to do that, I'll change the plot into one of a tragic heroine taking the blame to protect the family head." "Father is innocent! I cannot call Father a criminal!!" "...She's refused the deal! Ehehehehehehehe, okay, Bern. Do it...!" BGM: Kuina  "After conducting a thorough search of this room, and a detailed scientific examination, I discovered that Kinzo did not exist anywhere in this room between 24:00 and morning. However, your bed is the only exception."A shocked silence dominated the room... Natsuhi completely forgot to close her open mouth... "Last night, around the time the gold was discovered, so probably at about 23:00, Kinzo-san escaped from the window on the third floor and snuck into the bed in your room. And, as an even more unfortunate result from my investigation, it has been proven that you were also sleeping in that bed."  "Wow, look how close they were. So, you two were so close to each other, you slept sharing the same pillow?" "H, how rude!!! T, t, to think that I would... d, do such a thing... with the Father I respected so much... I won't allow you to say such things!!" "Natsuhi. Use the red truth to counter this blue truth. Of course, since you aren't a witch, there's no red that you can use. So I'll speak with the red truth in your place. At least, I will if you can show me convincing proof...!!" Natsuhi tried to attack Erika, but Eva pinned her arms behind her back, so she couldn't do anything.  "How unsightly. In order to take revenge against the Ushiromiya family, you first schemed to take control of everything the family owned. For that reason, you used your body as a weapon and ensnared Kinzo-san." "I never did anything of the sort!! I have never given my body to anyone except my husband!!" "I understand why you want to deny it, but the testimony from several witnesses makes it clear that you have had repeated secret meetings with Kinzo-san." "After all, last night, you went to 'say goodnight' to Kinzo-san, with just the two of you alone in his study, right? Not only that, I have collected multiple bits of testimony claiming that there were clear traces of sexual relations." "Are you insane?!?! Who was it?! Who said something so ridiculous?! G, Gohda?! Shannon?! Was it Eva-san?! Yes, you must be behind something this ludicrous!! "Who was it?! Whooooo?! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!" "Hey, Natsuhi. Looks like you don't even have a scrap of honor left now. I'll give you one, final chance before I build you the worst of all possible Fragments. Could you try saying that Kinzo wasn't there?" "That's right, you sure are stubborn, Natsuhi. The Ushiromiya family has already been torn to ribbons, right? Are you really that desperate to confuse the inheritance problem by pretending Kinzo exists?" "This is my final challenge... in protecting the honor of the Ushiromiya family, which Father entrusted me with...!! My husband's business will definitely... definitely succeed!! Until we can use that to repay our debts, I cannot hand over the inheritance of the Ushiromiya family!!" "I will protect Father and my husband's honor!! That is... my mission!!!" "...Wanting to protect the honor of the dead is an admirable trait."  As Natsuhi screamed, she fell down to her hands and knees... She no longer had any way to reject the fake truth that Bernkastel and Erika had weaved...  ...Of course there were none. All of those who might have objected had been erased... "No objections! Bern, this is your victory, and a wonderful victory it is! Now you must weave up the Fragment of the truth!!" "Sure. I'll go weave up the truth. This is the truth of this sad, pathetic tale. Though I did want Natsuhi to acknowledge her crime while half-laughing, half-crying. After all, that's standard in the genre, right? *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!"
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 13:42
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quote:I am the cruelest witch in the world. Whoever the opponent may be, I'll certainly make them surrender.
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Apr 18, 2017 14:11
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Good morning! So... that sure was a post I made yesterday, huh? Yeah...I'm not generally that angry in posting, and I seen to have upset some folks, so let me offer some explanation for my outburst. Yesterday... was kinda bad. I'm all right, and I'm not going to flip out and hurt myself or others, but despair had grown in me yesterday. First of all, I was tired; like I said, I had travelled for Easter (both there and back, since I had to be in church for choir) and had been surrounded by people all day, and going straight to work on Monday left me feeling drained. (I also might not have used my apnea device the night before due to travelling, which probably did not help- I hate how groggy and off the world feels without a C-PAP infused sleep.) Other thing is, I had a lot on my mind, particularly regarding politics; to make a very long story short, the state of the world concerns me at the moment, and living in DC, right there with everything, even if my job doesn't really have to do with politics, guarantees I am reminded of it a little. It's not that I'm particularly concerned for my own job or position, those are both relatively safe... but all the same, I fond myself in a Good Friday mindset the day after Easter, and it just kinda... blew up. So... sorry if I worried anybody*; I've had a good (and C-PAP infused) sleep, and feel somewhat better about things today. Yes, I know that Battler is in over his head and genuinely trying his best in a bad situation, it's just... I could really have used a victory yesterday. And the stage was set for one, too; it felt like a climax, it felt like the moment within the story that things turn around. That feeling, that catharsis was denied, and I'm not going to say sorry for feeling angry and frustrated at a story beat clearly meant to be anger-inducing and frustrating. As others have pointed out since yesterday, Erika's entire case is really weak and myopic, and relies almost wholly on "detective's authority", treated here more as God Mode than a narrative convention. And all she has guaranteed with it was that all the entrances beside the one she was personally watching in the guest house were sealed at an unspecified time before 1 AM, and that she heard someone breathing in Battler's room around 3. This leaves a lot of holes here, even with all of the alibis. It coukld have been Krauss, who slipped in before the sealing, killed them, and subsequently died at the same time as Hideyoshi; it could have been Kinzo, still unaccounted for- hell, it could have been Rosa, just after she came back: could have gone to the room, slit all their throats, and then her own (or she got in a tussle that ended with both throats cut). Battler had obviously been doing some thinking about this, had been poring over the mystery, and obviously cared about the situation, and he failed to mention these. He was supposed to win... and he let me down. ProfessorProf posted:
Though I guess I should probably join the club on that score. And to the point where I should remember it's just a story, and should calm down: I can't really do that, sorry. I care about stories, always have; it's really, really hard to detach myself from a story I've come to like. Other people read books, but I...live them; it's the difference between drinking water from a stream and throwing yourself into said stream and immersing every part of you. So I get involved; I attach myself to the flow of the imaginary characters and feel what they feel (even literally, sometimes- an active imagination causes me to imagine certain wounds very well... still haven't brought myself to watch certain movies because I know how difficult some of those wounds can be for me). That's how one "reads a book", as I have come to understand it, and I generally don't regret it (unless the book turns out to be poo poo, of course). But I was kinda ill prepared for this, even after everything else that's happened; Beatrice was positively kind compared to Erika. *And apologies especially to EagerSleeper for my language. Was it the C-word that did it? You've never seemed to care about F-bombs, but I seem to recall from the last thread that "b*tch" and other such female pejoratives seem to hit you hard, so I'll try to watch that. e: Oh look, a new up...date...  And the anger comes back again... holy goddamn, Berne is a monster. Am I really not allowed to get angry at this? How the hell are you all not spitting venom at this pointless degradation? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 14:12
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"...I promised that I'd kill you. So I won't let anyone else do it. I'll definitely keep that promise...!!"
"Liar. I'll never trust your promises again."
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Being Natsuhi is suffering
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Apr 18, 2017 14:16
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I made a small but notably edit to the update, if you've already read it, check the bit after "does anyone need evidence to say they're in love". I changed the pacing of what is captured in screencaps and what isn't.
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Apr 18, 2017 14:17
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Rodyle posted:
Hah. Natsuhi beat Bern. E: ProfessorProf posted:I made a small but notably edit to the update, if you've already read it, check the bit after "does anyone need evidence to say they're in love". I changed the pacing of what is captured in screencaps and what isn't. Well! Someone clearly broke Erika's heart. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 14:17
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