Strike Command: Wait, is that a fucking laser?

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Vando: Oct 26, 2007; stoats about

I know this is late but wouldn't it be easy to modify Parabellum to drop one Gripen (as we're upgrading the rest anyway) and using that extra stack of cash to buy a couple of Hawk batteries? I really don't like going with the extra Phantoms vs Tornados and not getting the KC-135.

e: oh gently caress me that plan doesn't have the KC-135 either, which one did? THIS PROCUREMENT PROCESS :psyduck:

Vando fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 17, 2017

# ? Apr 17, 2017 19:35

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# ? May 16, 2024 09:34

sniper4625: Sep 26, 2009; Loyal to the hEnd

Finally caught up - no particular view on a vote yet, but throwing my name on the reserve flight list, callsign: Domai

# ? Apr 17, 2017 19:37

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

I think we should get back to complete packages that we vote for. All this splitting gripens makes the thread move fast, but is none too exiciting to read, at least for me. Meanwhile, buying packages forces us to work with what we have, and look what amount of exitement just the SK60Bs are generating! Plus, we don't have to fear being to optimal

totally not saying this because I never made a purchase proposal or because I hope to get package Fishbeds

# ? Apr 17, 2017 19:50

Quinntan: Sep 11, 2013

I kinda found it fun, though that may be because I'm a bit of a plane sperg.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:10

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

JcDent posted:

I think we should get back to complete packages that we vote for. All this splitting gripens makes the thread move fast, but is none too exiciting to read, at least for me. Meanwhile, buying packages forces us to work with what we have, and look what amount of exitement just the SK60Bs are generating! Plus, we don't have to fear being to optimal

totally not saying this because I never made a purchase proposal or because I hope to get package Fishbeds

I think I agree. It ends up that the packages all end up looking the same with minor variances and nothing too crazy is out there because the hive mind says we need Gripens/Phantoms/Tornados and an all Euro mix. It's a bit too min/max. Having 3 or 4 prebuilt packages could be fun and allow us to get some variety in the aircraft we end up with.

I want more Frogfoots damnit...

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:15

Yooper: Apr 30, 2012

Popete posted:

I want more Frogfoots damnit...

Plan A : 8 Frogfoots
Plan B : 8 Frogfoots
Plan C : 8 Frogfoots and a couch

We'll see about procurement next time. On one hand it's cool to debate procurement, but on the other it's cool to deal with whatever mish-mash of bullshit our horrible suppliers can find.

This is what I'm thinking next time :

code:

Step 1 : You guys give a shopping list of needs / wants to the suppliers.
Step 2 : Suppliers provide packages, you get some of what you want, but not all, and some Frogfoots.
Step 3 : Everyone votes on supplier packages.
Step 4 : Wild Willie lets you buy something we absolutely positively feel that we need.

We can still have the Great Plane Debate and also get our fun. I like working within limitations and boundaries, it forces us all to think outside the box. It feels more merc-like to give something that's good in each package, and also a bunch of oddball stuff. (See SK60B's).

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:26

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

� la carte here!

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:32

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

I agree with the prebuilt packages but maybe include a custom ordering option with a decent markup? That way if we want something really cool or good we can get it but other wise we have to work with what we get.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:38

Davin Valkri: Apr 8, 2011; Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Telsa Cola posted:

I agree with the prebuilt packages but maybe include a custom ordering option with a decent markup? That way if we want something really cool or good we can get it but other wise we have to work with what we get.

I suspect that's what Wild Willie's Special Shop is for.

But, yes, that sounds like a good procedure. Especially if we get the chance to order "built but never used operationally" items like F-20s or Yak-141s.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:43

power crystals: Jun 6, 2007; Who wants a belly rub??

Su-47s or bust. Also literally anything that can mount S-24s just for the sheer comedy of lobbing 24cm of unguided HE at things.

I've already stated my desire for package procurement though so this has my support.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:47

Cabbage Disrespect: Apr 24, 2009; ROBUST COMBAT
Leonard Riflepiss; Soiled Meat

A quick guide to electronic warfare in Command
Chances are that anyone reading this LP is groggy as gently caress and already knows this, but for anyone else, here's an overview.

Aircraft like the Prowler we're probably going to buy can prevent radars from detecting/tracking them and other aircraft on a similar bearing. Nice!

Fig. 1: An SA-8b and an SA-2b under the effects of jamming. The SA-2b is having little trouble tracking the F-4 37nm north of itself because no jammers are on the same bearing. The B-52H doing the jamming is the contact ~50nm to the south, and it's not actually detected by a radar--the SA-8b crew spotted its contrail by looking outside because it's a clear day! The EA-6B flying next to the B-52 is completely undetected despite not actually running its jammers, and thanks to the B-52's interference, it won't get picked up until the SA-8's radar detects it just 22nm away.

Fig. 2: The SA-2b engages the B-52. I turned the Prowler's jammers once it was detected, and you can see that nothing has a track on it any more. While it's not visible in this image, the F-4 to the north is still merrily spinning in circles and the SA-2's P-18 is still having no trouble tracking it.

Bonus DECM action. Unlike OECM, DECM makes it harder for missiles to actually hit their targets, but it doesn't make it any harder to track the aircraft carrying it.

code:

Defensive jammer (AN/ALQ-117; Tech: Late 1970s) on B-52H Stratofortress is attempting to spoof sensor: SARH Seeker(Tech: Early 1960s)(Of: SA-2b Guideline [SA-75M Dvina, 11D / V-750V] #62). Final probability: 30%. Result: 25 - SUCCESS

Fig. 3: Even though the SA-8b's more modern radar can now track the EA-6B, it's flying too high to engage. The SA-2b is well within range, but it can't fire until the EA-6B is just 5.8nm away because its Fan Song C illuminator is jammed.

Fig. 4: The same scenario, but with a modern S-400. The B-52H and EA-6B (~130nm away) are both jamming. The S-400 can track the B-52 without any issue, but not the EA-6B. However, it knows the approximate location of the EA-6B (because I started the scenario with it in radar range and jamming off), so it promptly engages both aircraft with 40N6 missiles. Because the 40N6 is an ARH missile, it has its own radar and can hit targets the S-400 can't track precisely, unlike SARH missiles that require their targets to be painted dead-on. Both missiles hit, putting a quick end to this test.

tl;dr and hot tips

Jamming gives away your presence and stops working once you're close enough, but...
...it also makes it harder for your opponent to detect, track, and engage you!
Keep your jammers on the same axis as the aircraft and/or weapons you want to protect with it. They don't have to be mixed in with your strike aircraft/cruise missiles/lobbyist cash transport aircraft, but that will help.
Not all jamming equipment is the same. Newer >> older and more power > less power.
Not all radars are equal, either. Just like jamming equipment, newer >> older and more power > less power.
Even if you can kinda jam something, you might not be able to stop it from firing missiles at you.
Aircraft can't jam more targets than their jamming pods allow, and crew workload can be pretty high for older equipment. I assume Command models the former but abstracts away the latter, but I don't actually know this for sure.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 20:55

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

� la carte - I can't endorse selling planes until they're on fire.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 21:08

Yvonmukluk: Oct 10, 2012; Everything is Sinister

I putting my vote in for The Count in Angola.

I kind of like the idea of a goon LP of a pack of mercenaries making the world a better place.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 21:36

RBA-Wintrow: Nov 4, 2009; Clapping Larry

Yooper posted:

Glad to hear it Dong!

It's been a ton of fun to roll with all this poo poo. I don't know where it's going to go, but we'll have a blast getting there. I'm basically one paragraph ahead of you guys in a Choose Your Own adventure book.

I'm binge-reading this thread and loving it! I really should get some sleep. But I can't stop!

# ? Apr 17, 2017 21:51

Bacarruda: Mar 30, 2011; Mutiny!?! More like "reinterpreted orders"

I'll just sit back, smoke a cigar and watch the election results come in. If i lose, I blame Russian hackers. If I win, I send them a nice bottle of vodka.

I'll just offer some final thoughts.

Number one, go back and read the actual proposal. There are extremely strong reasons to buy high-end strike fighters now now -- they are moneymakers, they kick rear end in very arena, and we won't get another crack at them. The are good reasons to accomplish air defense through intel 9Yoopersays we can do it), ground-based IR seekers my SIDAMs can see as far as the Hawk's radar), ATC radars, and airpower. Then we can make a later buy on SAMs and radars.

For all the critics, fixing Parabellum's weaknesses is simple.
Interim solution (next 1-2 missions):
-Use the $10-15 million to buy a good modern radar. Have two Phanstoms (or Gripens) fighters on Alert 15 ready to scramble to meet threats.
-use the 80nm range of the SIDAMs IR camera as early warning (which is loving identical to the vaunted Hawk's radar range...)
-set up a spy network and ground observer force to report if the enemy is marshaling an airstrike (Yooper says this is easily doable in-game)
--Make as much money as possible.

Near-term (next 2-3 missions):
-Spend our new profits to buy a radar and some SA-6s or something from Willie
-We now have air defenses, 10 Gripens, 6 Tornadoes, and 4 Phantoms. Same protection as Al la carte, buy with more robust and dealy moneymakers.

Meanwhile Parabellum does a great many things better than Al la Carte.
-Phantoms are ok in low-threat situations. But against meaningful air defense, they'll die. Their jammers are mediocre, their RCS is loving huge, and their kinetic performance is absymal. Buying eight of them is a giant gamble.
-Gripens are awesome. Low radar cross-section. Great dogfighters. Solid ECM. Wonderful radar. Eight 60nm-ranged SDBs. Four other precision weapons. Four Meteors. Our only anti-shipping missiles (and drat good ones at that). Recon pods. Short field capability.
-Gripens are rare, SAMS are common -- we will have to wait months before modern strike fighters are on the table again. Remember what airplanes we got offered mid-theater last time around? The world is flush with decent SAMs or AAA. They are simply easier to get than strike fighters.
-If we get into a tangle with an rear end load of F-16s (which the Dictator has), we're gonna wish we had ten Gripens instead of a eight lead-sled Phantoms.
-The C-130 is a waste of money. We don't need it.
-MQ-9s are slow as sin and die like flies if they get looked at funny. Buy another Tornado (or a Gripen) and use their recce pods, instead. They'll live longer.
-Buying four Tornadoes means we can only field strikers if we have to use the other two for SEAD work. That's going to push more work onto the less-versatile and more vulnerable Phantoms.

Al la carte is an ok plan. It's just kinda short-sighted and saddles us with a lukewarm air force for a long time -- when we could buy a great air force now and then beef it up as time goes on.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:18

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

Mr. Showtime posted:

I know it isn't, but I'm choosing to believe that the rust red mountains and random valley full of greenery means this demonstration is set on a partially terraformed Mars.

_{_{Yooper can we please find our way to Mars at some point tia}}

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:24

power crystals: Jun 6, 2007; Who wants a belly rub??

Bacarruda posted:

-use the 80nm range of the SIDAMs IR camera as early warning (which is loving identical to the vaunted Hawk's radar range...)

Let's assume that somehow that camera spots a bogey at 80nmi. At a not unusual 600 knots for the inbound contact, this gives us eight minutes to get a Gripen started, airborne, and into an intercept altitude/position while they make a beeline for our strategic SK60 reserves. In the meantime, all that aircraft has to do is stay more than 1.5nmi above us, or a whole 9,000 feet. The operational floor on A-10s these days is 15-20,000 feet for this exact reason. The Hawk, meanwhile, can start firing missiles at that thing at 15-20nmi out, which either hits and kills the bogey, or at least forces it to disengage long enough to get our birds in the air because it takes a fair amount of time, and more importantly kinematic energy, to dodge a missile.

e: as Dandywalken points out below, that 80 is a very optimistic figure. The shorter the detection range, the worse time we'll have trying to scramble. Radars are much more reliable unless we start having LO aircraft flying at us, but that might as well be the milsim version of "rocks fall everybody dies" so we can probably discount that.

power crystals fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Apr 17, 2017

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:30

CBJamo: Jul 15, 2012

A vote for Parabellum is a vote for planes that can make a legitimate claim at being the best planes in theater. The Gripen carries the SBD and the Meteor, they are both top of the line, world class weapons. We need to get as many as we can, whenever we can.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:32

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

Be super careful using the claimed view ranges of most optical suites of that nature. They are almost without exception the result of marketing and don't take into consideration anything about atmospheric conditions, which are a huge deal. Same with IRST and thermal imaging systems.

I think it's some abstraction of the devices resolution and other traits rather than a system being able to reliably peep an object at sixty miles away.

Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 17, 2017

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:34

Quinntan: Sep 11, 2013

I believe that's the CMANO range for the IR sensor on the SIDAM.

However, power crystals is right. A pair of Gripens at alert 15 isn't much good when it takes half that time for the aggressor to reach our air field after detection. Even at alert 5, the Gripen on climb out is still going to be ridiculously vulnerable to escorting aircraft, or even the short range A2A missiles on the ingressing attacker. I'd rather the enemy have to deal with the I-HAWKs, that at least buys time for scrambling aircraft to climb out a little.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:40

power crystals: Jun 6, 2007; Who wants a belly rub??

Quinntan posted:

I'd rather the enemy have to deal with the I-HAWKs, that at least buys time for scrambling aircraft to climb out a little.

An addendum on this specific point. One of the most reliable ways to dodge a missile, should you somehow be in this position, is to immediately head for the floor. Contrary to Hollywood's portrayals, a missile's rocket motor burns for about 1-3 seconds after launch and then it glides from there on out. It's gliding really loving fast but it has no way to produce thrust ever again. By entering lower, thicker, atmosphere, the missile has to expend more of its energy to follow you due to air friction while you still have your engines running the whole time. However, if someone fires on you while you're already down there, you're pretty boned because when you were being chased downwards by the missile you were both gaining speed via gravity but now you expended all your potential energy dodging the last one while it accelerates to mach gently caress you. Unless you're incredibly good/lucky or being attacked by a really lovely missile you might as well eject and get it over with. This is the situation a scrambling aircraft would face. You want them to get to 30k+ feet before the enemy gets into weapon range and for that you need either one hell of a search radar or some way to keep them at bay for a while. The Hawk is the latter. Maybe some day we can get Willie to find us the search radar only from a Patriot even if we can't get the real thing :v:

One of the points of an IADS (Integrated Air Defense System) is that you have multiple weapons with multiple effective ranges, so that when you force a plane to head for the deck it flies right into some rear end in a top hat with a Stinger or similar. That SIDAM is one of these backup weapons. It's nigh-useless without the first stage weapon because the strategy to counter it as the attacker is basically "stay at altitude", which is pretty trivial. I was going to make a joke here about "unless they're using AN-2s" but even those have a service ceiling of ~15,000 feet, so yeah.

# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:52

sniper4625: Sep 26, 2009; Loyal to the hEnd

Changed my mind, a vote for Parabellum

# ? Apr 17, 2017 23:13

Saukkis: May 16, 2003; Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

Bacarruda posted:

Number one, go back and read the actual proposal. There are extremely strong reasons to buy high-end strike fighters now now -- they are moneymakers, they kick rear end in very arena, and we won't get another crack at them. The are good reasons to accomplish air defense through intel 9Yoopersays we can do it), ground-based IR seekers my SIDAMs can see as far as the Hawk's radar), ATC radars, and airpower. Then we can make a later buy on SAMs and radars.

I would certainly want the 3 Gripens, but even more I want high altitude SAMs to keep enemies at distance from out base. Doing otherwise means relying on the GM to be on our side. The dictator knows our fighters are the biggest threat for his F-16s, he would not win us in air. His only option would be a pre-emptive full force high altitude strike at our base. Couple Gripens in air would mean jack poo poo against half a dozen F-16 circling over our airfield.

I would like to go with Parabellum if you find a way to include I-HAWKs in your plan. Sell the Frogfoots and BaE Hawks, buy only four Tornados, or some other adjustment.

It sounds like we'll have a second round of voting, that would be time to publish revised plans.

Saukkis fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 17, 2017

# ? Apr 17, 2017 23:14

LostCosmonaut: Feb 15, 2014

Going with � la carte

# ? Apr 17, 2017 23:18

The Chad Jihad: Feb 24, 2007

I like � la carte, we can't count on a kill bonus in every mission and the other option dips too close to 0 for my liking

# ? Apr 17, 2017 23:27

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

As much as I really, really want more Gripens, I'm gona go with the A la carte plan so our airbase doesn't get clowned on by the Dictator's F-16s.

Really I'm kinda wishing I'd stuck the Hawk in my proposal, this is what I get for not knowing anything about air defense.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 00:09

Yooper: Apr 30, 2012

Voting is done.

Proposal : � la carte

(Yes, you have two Sa-22's and ZSU-23-4, and no, this poo poo is not to scale. We didn't buy a tiny C-130 or MONSTER Tornado)

I just got off the phone with the delivery service. They'll get all the planes to Frankfurt in a few days. Some British guy named Harry.

:catdrugs:

Now will be the official vote for our theater. Ask yourselves, do we want to have hills like white elephants, or the call of the wild?

Areas of Operation

Faction Details

Pick a Locale and an employer.

ANGOLA - REDDIT for example.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:36

Added Space: Jul 13, 2012; Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!

ANGOLA - DICTATOR

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:37

Quinntan: Sep 11, 2013

Angola - The Hoff

The Count is our best chance of redeeming ourselves after the gong show that was the Indian adventure. Besides, we helped free Tibet, we should keep on trying to overthrow oppressive regimes instead of reinforcing them.

Quinntan fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Apr 18, 2017

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:37

Dr. Snark: Oct 15, 2012; I'M SORRY, OK!? I admit I've made some mistakes, and Jones has clearly paid for them.
...
But ma'am! Jones' only crime was looking at the wrong files!
...
I beg of you, don't ship away Jones, he has a wife and kids!

-United Nations Intelligence Service

Angola - Count

All of my joking aside, he seems like the employer least likely to turn against us and it honestly sounds like an interesting challenge to be his de facto air force.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:38

sniper4625: Sep 26, 2009; Loyal to the hEnd

Angola - Hof seems like it will make for the best action adventure movie based on our exploits.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:40

Slaan: Mar 16, 2009; ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

Angola- Dictator

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:40

power crystals: Jun 6, 2007; Who wants a belly rub??

Angola - Hoff. Let's show the well funded crews what a group of poorly coordinated fools with the almighty SK60 can accomplish.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:42

perfluorosapien: Aug 15, 2015; Oven Wrangler

Angola - CVvH

Maybe he's a vampire?

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:48

ManifunkDestiny: Aug 2, 2005; THE ONLY THING BETTER THAN THE SEAHAWKS IS RUSSELL WILSON'S TAINT SWEAT

Seahawks #1 fan since 2014.

Bering Sea - ANGERpeace

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:50

Cabbage Disrespect: Apr 24, 2009; ROBUST COMBAT
Leonard Riflepiss; Soiled Meat

Protip: Our MQ-9B, being a newer American model, can be equipped with Gorgon Stare surveillance pods (though it can't carry weapons at the same time). Gorgon Stare is the best. It doesn't make that much of a difference over the ocean, but in CMANO, it is disgustingly good for finding things on the ground.

Wikipedia posted:

On 1 July 2014, Sierra Nevada Corporation revealed that the Gorgon Stare Increment 2 pod had achieved initial operating capability (IOC) earlier in the year. While the Increment 1 system, first fielded in March 2011, could cover an area of 16 km^2 (6.2 sq mi), the incorporation of the ARGUS-IS expands that coverage area to 100 km^2 (39 sq mi). The system has 368 cameras capable of capturing 5 million pixels each to create an image of about 1.8 billion pixels. Video is collected at 12 frames per second, producing several terabytes of data per minute.

Increment 2 provides a four-fold increase in coverage and twice the imagery resolution thanks to ARGUS technology; ARGUS is essentially 368 five-megapixel smartphone cameras clustered together and peering through four telescopic lenses and is produced by BAE Systems, while the IR arrays are produced by Exelis Inc. and are the largest available, which were separated from the EO sensors and moved to the adjacent pod. Sierra Nevada Corporation remained the overall system integrator, meaning it is responsible for merging the sensors, processors, data-links and air vehicle into one package that distributes information in real-time with minimal latency through the joint force�s tactical intelligence network. By early 2015, Increment 2 had replaced all initial versions of the Gorgon Stare in operational service.

I'm sure we'll get the thing shot down nine seconds into our first mission, but until then, we can spot prominent targets (e.g. moving groups of vehicles) from 30-50nm and less obvious ones (stationary groups of infantry or single vehicles) from 15-20+. You can do that without it, too, but it takes much longer to find contacts.

Cabbage Disrespect fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Apr 18, 2017

# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:51

Davin Valkri: Apr 8, 2011; Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!