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lotus circle posted:I said it before and I'll say it again: of the four main Ushiromiya siblings, Krauss is arguably the least hosed up. Remember: I feel I must step in to defend Rudolf's honor here. He got two women pregnant when he was barely old enough to drink. We have no information on how serious these relationships were or if Kyrie and Asumu knew about each other, so we can't conclusively say Rudolf did anything wrong just by dating them both. I don't know what the use of birth control was like in 1967 Japan so I can't comment there either, but at worst he made a stupid kid mistake and didn't wrap it up and got a shotgun wedding for his trouble. We don't really know why he married Asumu instead of Kyrie, but if how Krauss's wife was chosen is any indicator he probably didn't have much of a choice in the matter. And if we assume he really loved Kyrie the whole time, you can't really blame him for moving quickly to repair the poo poo his dad pulled as soon as he got the chance. It's not like he murdered Asumu or anything. So the worst thing you can accuse Rudolf of doing is being a stupid twenty-one year old. Meanwhile, Krauss, as a full fledged adult, stole his father's money and sold his family's house out from under them to pay for what amounts to his gambling addiction.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:01
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ZiegeDame posted:It's not like he murdered Asumu or anything. Probably.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:06
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CottonWolf posted:Probably. Oh, it's much more likely that Kyrie murdered Asumu. Rudolf probably just helped. Or, as Erika would "prove" if she were the detective on the case, it was Ange! How could you, Ange? Unless of course you want to blame your mother, right? Sure, we know you didn't do it in red, but that's inadmissible because it wouldn't fit my narrative.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:31
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My mental arrangement of this episode is off. I had thought it ended with Battler getting stabbed.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:50
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Qrr posted:Oh, it's much more likely that Kyrie murdered Asumu. Rudolf probably just helped. "What's that? Ange wasn't even born until after Asumu died? Do you have any evidence? You don't, do you~? You didn't bring a birth certificate with you to the family conference/extra-planar hell courtroom, did you~~? That's just to~o baa~ad!" Though now that we're on the subject, it occurs to me that Rudolf expecting to be killed can easily be explained as "When I tell Kyrie that I knew about how Kinzo stole her baby and gave it to Asumu, she's going to kill me."
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Apr 18, 2017 20:51
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ZiegeDame posted:I feel I must step in to defend Rudolf's honor here. He got two women pregnant when he was barely old enough to drink.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:52
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lotus circle posted:Sorry but that's wrong. Rudolf has to be, at youngest, in his mid-40s. Battler is 18, so Rudolf was in his late 20s when he was born. So he was definitely not some dumb kid who didn't know what he was doing. Source? The only (unofficial) age I have seen for Rudolf is just 40. e: 40 years old also coincidentally puts Rudlof being conceived just after the end of the war, with Eva and Krauss born before it started. I forget, do we know what Kinzo was doing during the war? ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 21:00
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The family lived in the mansion when Rudolf was in elementary school (mentioned by Eva concerning the wolf petting thing) and the mansion's construction was finished in 1952 as mentioned by George in EP1, meaning that in 1952 Rudolf was between 6-12 years old. Rudolf could have been as young as about 22 when Battler was born. edit: Oops, I guess the mansion could've been constructed before Rudolf began elementary school. Potentially as young as 16, then? Definitely no older than 28. tiistai fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 21:08
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ZiegeDame posted:Source? The only (unofficial) age I have seen for Rudolf is just 40. Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva and Hideyoshi are hovering around their early to mid 50s. Hideyoshi may be even closer to 60. Rudolf and Kyrie are somewhere around their mid-40s. Krauss and Eva are about the same age, while Rudolf shouldn't be more than five or six years apart from them. Rosa is in her early 30s. She was about 12-13 when Beatrice of the Kuwadorian fell to her death, so the math would add up to her being about 30ish. So yeah no official age is really stated for any adult, but Rudolf was definitely not some dumb kid back then. He knew what he was doing when he dated both women at the same time, and really most people know even before 18 that two-timing is not a cool thing to do to either one of your partner's.
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Apr 18, 2017 21:09
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lotus circle posted:He knew what he was doing when he dated both women at the same time, and really most people know even before 18 that two-timing is not a cool thing to do to either one of your partner's. I'm not saying it's not a lovely thing to do. I'm just saying it's not steal from your dad and leave your family broke and homeless lovely.
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Apr 18, 2017 21:27
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Qrr posted:Oh, it's much more likely that Kyrie murdered Asumu. Rudolf probably just helped. I think someone needs to go back and reread stuff. During Kyrie's confrontation with Leviathan, she says she was actively WISHING Asumu would die and, given her other statements, it's not a particularly large leap to guess that she would have eventually attempted murder, but ultimately Asumu died without Kyrie doing anything. Aside from that, there is literally zero evidence anywhere in any of the updates suggesting Rudolf had a hand in Asumu's death, or would have helped Kyrie if it had come to that, so that specifically is an utterly baseless claim.
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Apr 18, 2017 21:39
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Qrr posted:Oh, also since witches aren't real and are just metaphorical: what the heck is going on there? This must represent someone attacking Natsuhi. So who is doing it and what's their motivation? Mary Sue isn't doing it on behalf of Bernkastel because Bern is imaginary. So what is actually going on? I guess Mary Sue could have a reason to dislike Natsuhi, though I'm not sure how - maybe it relates to that backstory where she comes from a noble family. Well, to answer that question, I think we have to address the circumstances of this 5th game- and the fact that, in Beatrice's absence, Lambdadelta took the reins. It is easy to say that since this is a "game without love", as Ronove puts it, that Shortcackle is just ducking around with things willy nilly for fun, but recall that it was mentioned that LD actually does have a good understanding of how Beatrice and her "game" work. It's been mentioned several times that the pieces on the game board are bound to only do what is possible for them, and what those character are able to do. So the mechanics of the game are the same as the previous game boards, despite the Mary Sue. Thus what this all says to me, is that this Beatrice (the real one, not the spirit) is doing things that she could have done before, but wouldn't do. Within that question is the answer to your question: what is Beatrice doing here that wasn't done before? The utter shellacking of Natsuhi would seem to be the most obvious answer, but the first game had Natsuhi being singled out and messed with as well, just not to the degree of calling her a murderer and incestuous whore. So what does that leave? The calls from Cliff Baby? Possibly, since we never heard a word about cliff baby before...
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Apr 18, 2017 22:01
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resurgam40 posted:Well, to answer that question, I think we have to address the circumstances of this 5th game- and the fact that, in Beatrice's absence, Lambdadelta took the reins. It is easy to say that since this is a "game without love", as Ronove puts it, that Shortcackle is just ducking around with things willy nilly for fun, but recall that it was mentioned that LD actually does have a good understanding of how Beatrice and her "game" work. It's been mentioned several times that the pieces on the game board are bound to only do what is possible for them, and what those character are able to do. So the mechanics of the game are the same as the previous game boards, despite the Mary Sue. Thus what this all says to me, is that this Beatrice (the real one, not the spirit) is doing things that she could have done before, but wouldn't do. It should be noted that Ronove described it as without love/honour, depending on the perspective, and that the cause lay before the trial section. I'd also guess that Beatrice isn't the murderer here, if we assume love was the motive behind the previous episodes. That's seeming increasingly likely, with the promise that was forgotten.
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Apr 18, 2017 23:17
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resurgam40 posted:Well, to answer that question, I think we have to address the circumstances of this 5th game- and the fact that, in Beatrice's absence, Lambdadelta took the reins. It is easy to say that since this is a "game without love", as Ronove puts it, that Shortcackle is just ducking around with things willy nilly for fun, but recall that it was mentioned that LD actually does have a good understanding of how Beatrice and her "game" work. Lambda is Beato's backer and the game master, she has all the answers. She's just agreed with Bern not to mention them because their scenario is more funny.
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Apr 19, 2017 00:06
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What does it matter. Red has been overthrown. It does not matter if by power or not. Once Red Truth is said as does not count by any source the basic part of the game is removed and all Red and Blue Truths are meaningless So the only place this can go is if Knox and game five is thrown out or there can be no game.
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Apr 19, 2017 00:32
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The red was not 'overthrown', no one has ever claimed that statements in red are not the truth. The issue here is that Erika doesn't care whether or not Natsuhi is actually guilty as long as she can construct a case the explains the murders that no one can contradict. Battler attempted to use the red truth that Natsuhi was not the culprit, but since he himself was unable to figure out who could have done it if not her despite possessing the red truth, the court rejected his 'reasoning'. I don't see how this is supposed to have any impact on the veracity of any of the red truths prevented so far in the game.
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Apr 19, 2017 00:59
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oblongmeow posted:The red was not 'overthrown', no one has ever claimed that statements in red are not the truth. The issue here is that Erika doesn't care whether or not Natsuhi is actually guilty as long as she can construct a case the explains the murders that no one can contradict. Battler attempted to use the red truth that Natsuhi was not the culprit, but since he himself was unable to figure out who could have done it if not her despite possessing the red truth, the court rejected his 'reasoning'. I don't see how this is supposed to have any impact on the veracity of any of the red truths prevented so far in the game. Because red truths have been accepted that had just as little justification. If red truths are only accepted arbitrarily, why should we care about any of them? He didn't need to figure out who did it if not her. If you go through everyone's alibis one by one and refuse to believe the last person is innocent because then who could have done it, then the only result of your system is framing the last person examined. Especially when you're willing to cheat your way to other alibis.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:10
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For those who haven't gotten the hammer on the head yet, Ryukishi pretty much designed Erika in response to segments of the fanbase that would throw out theories about who the culprit could be solely based on the scenario presented. Trust me, when the games were coming out there were some ridiculous theories out there about who could have done it. Guess what many of these theories lacked?quote:Because red truths have been accepted that had just as little justification. If red truths are only accepted arbitrarily, why should we care about any of them? Whatever is stated in red is still the truth. Dlanor's presence adds the extra step of "ok, now explain how this is the truth." Welcome to the Answer Arcs. Start providing proof to back up your answers, or they won't mean poo poo. You can't put Beatrice to sleep half-heartedly. If you're going to kill the witch, be precise and complete.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:17
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Sorry doesn't work like that you can't do that. Red is red because it has been said in Red to the point that an untruth can't be said in Red. Blue is the one that needs proof because if Witchy red needs proof then it is meaningless.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:22
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Battler has produced red truth of his own before, so it's not so much that it's off-limits for him. It seems like it's a question of which side is being argued and what method they're using. Battler is arguing for the human side, or, if you like, the mystery side, so he has to solve the problem using human methods - it's no good saying "I know witches don't exist, because a witch told me and magically guaranteed that it was so". A different standard applies. Erika actually did all this bizarre poo poo with tape and crawling up the walls and listening to Battler breathe like the creepiest fucker ever; if all she had to do was ask for Bern to say a bunch of things in red, why would she have bothered? Even in this last stupid round of bullshit, she's going through the motions of searching the house. The arguments of both sides can be accepted as truth, but they have to get there in different ways. Edit: Actually, there's an analogy here to human courts. There are things that are true that aren't admissible in court - more policy applies to determine the use of evidence in court than just it being true. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 01:35
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Speaking of all the crazy poo poo Erika did, I think the best way to sum up what's going on here is that she went around slapping tape on every door and window on the island except the door to Natsushi's bedroom.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:00
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Qrr posted:Because red truths have been accepted that had just as little justification. If red truths are only accepted arbitrarily, why should we care about any of them? Notice how Erika never used Kinzo is dead despite how it would have won her fight? Humans aren't allowed to make their cases solely using red, they have to prove their cases with evidence and make their own red based off of that.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:07
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Cyouni posted:Notice how Erika never used Kinzo is dead despite how it would have won her fight? Humans aren't allowed to make their cases solely using red, they have to prove their cases with evidence and make their own red based off of that. Though you could argue that that one is because she knew what her master was going for and let her keep that open as a "possibility". Actually, wasn't that what the garden conversation with Dlanor was about?
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Apr 19, 2017 02:12
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Fates End posted:Though you could argue that that one is because she knew what her master was going for and let her keep that open as a "possibility". I actually rechecked that section, and look what it says: ProfessorProf posted:
It was a different red truth that was denied usage, perhaps because it might be tricky to build proof for it.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:26
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"...I know. 'Kinzo is dead at the starting time for all games'. Beato has already spoken that truth. In that battle, Battler-kun could only have achieved a draw at best. He most certainly had no chance at all of winning."
"...You're right. If you just say that, the whole fight's already over. Why didn't you use that red? Don't tell me it was because of a stalemate or something like that."
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lotus circle posted:(so long as she can be a bitch about it.) Knowing that this game has a variety of villains who happen to be female, this thread was bound to be a goddamn honeypot for the occasional goon throwing misogynistic insults around, but can we not? Beatrice and Battler are dead as hell, unless Battler pulls off an excellent legal defense while only having 30% of his original blood volume remaining.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:50
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Cyouni posted:It was a different red truth that was denied usage, perhaps because it might be tricky to build proof for it. I'm am 99% sure this is just Ryukishi lampshading the fact that he decided to never use someone/something being wet or not as a clue in this story.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:58
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idonotlikepeas posted:Battler has produced red truth of his own before, so it's not so much that it's off-limits for him. It seems like it's a question of which side is being argued and what method they're using. Battler is arguing for the human side, or, if you like, the mystery side, so he has to solve the problem using human methods - it's no good saying "I know witches don't exist, because a witch told me and magically guaranteed that it was so". A different standard applies. Erika actually did all this bizarre poo poo with tape and crawling up the walls and listening to Battler breathe like the creepiest fucker ever; if all she had to do was ask for Bern to say a bunch of things in red, why would she have bothered? Even in this last stupid round of bullshit, she's going through the motions of searching the house. The arguments of both sides can be accepted as truth, but they have to get there in different ways. Except that's the thing - Erika didn't do a single thing to create an alibi for anyone in the mansion. She wasn't in the mansion. She wasn't even the one that sealed Genji's door. The only reason the people in the mansion have alibis is because of red text. Same for Krauss. In fact, when Bern stated in red that they had alibis and someone complained, her only justification is that the red was true because it's red. So frankly I don't know why Erika did all this bizarre poo poo. Presumably because her reason to exist is to amuse Bern and Bern is amused by her antics. (I also don't know why she didn't seal the windows from the inside, because seriously she had no reason to climb on the outside of the house).
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Apr 19, 2017 03:10
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Qrr posted:(I also don't know why she didn't seal the windows from the inside, because seriously she had no reason to climb on the outside of the house). 
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Apr 19, 2017 03:19
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Qrr posted:Except that's the thing - Erika didn't do a single thing to create an alibi for anyone in the mansion. She wasn't in the mansion. She wasn't even the one that sealed Genji's door. The only reason the people in the mansion have alibis is because of red text. Same for Krauss. In fact, when Bern stated in red that they had alibis and someone complained, her only justification is that the red was true because it's red. Fine, let's play this game. The ones in the mansion have an alibi unless all of them, including Battler, are in on it. At which point, why are we even pretending this is a story anymore. That's the point of the red truth - to eliminate stupid possibilities like "someone created a situation where they could slip out for an hour and not be noticed ever being gone because there's nothing to prove that didn't happen". Similarly, that Genji never left the house is backed by scientific analysis, as was noted: ProfessorProf posted:
They also acknowledge that Krauss and Kinzo were capable of committing the crime, and that's denied by Natsuhi in what's pretty much this conversation: "So you, Krauss, and Kinzo are the only ones without alibis. Are you going to assert that since you're innocent, Krauss or Kinzo must have committed it?" "Not happening." And each of those pieces are what provides the red used in the update.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:37
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"This is all information gathered from the people involved. It isn't a red truth without a basis. It's a truth due to proper reasoning constructed from testimony. Not only testimony, but the limits of scientific investigations such as collecting fingerprints were used here."
"After all, Kinzo-san's study is a treasure vault with all kinds of chemicals! I obtained all sorts of results to create an ultimate truth, infinitely close to a red truth. This isn't a science mystery, so I'll spare you the details."
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Amidiri posted:Erika/Bern are kind of frustrating characters to deal with. It's obnoxious to have theories shot down with just 'nah' 'why not' 'cuz nah'. Like I understand that's the point, but it's still very unpleasant to read? Thank you. This is exactly how I feel and I couldn't find the words for it. It's worse in the LP format, where you get to linger over the updates, than when you can just go to the next page. Theories not shot down: the sealed doors were opened by having their hinges removed. George is the culprit: he killed Krauss and made Krauss' body look like him. That second one is based on obviously weasely red text that all bodies were from people on the island - not the simpler statement that all bodies were who they appeared to be. I suspect this arc is mainly to show how unreliable red text is, even if it's always true? So we're prepared to start shooting gaps in it? The US courtroom makes you swear to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Red text is only the first of those.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:53
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Cyouni posted:Fine, let's play this game. The Genji thing, sure. As for the others, maybe if that had been the argument used it would be ok. But that wasn't the argument they used - the argument they used was "The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counterargument". Actually, she said that in red, so she has straight up in red contradicted her right to ignore Battler's red truth. There's nothing in there about it only applying to witches. quote:They also acknowledge that Krauss and Kinzo were capable of committing the crime, and that's denied by Natsuhi in what's pretty much this conversation: Natsuhi does not have the ability to say that Krauss and Kinzo didn't do it. She may not want to put the blame on them, but what she wants doesn't matter when determining the guilty party.
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Apr 19, 2017 04:00
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EagerSleeper posted:Knowing that this game has a variety of villains who happen to be female, this thread was bound to be a goddamn honeypot for the occasional goon throwing misogynistic insults around, but can we not? 
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Apr 19, 2017 04:05
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That loving witch!!! Also I'm here to say that Rudolf actually is the best ushiromiya sibling despite or because of his man sluttiness.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:03
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Qrr posted:Natsuhi does not have the ability to say that Krauss and Kinzo didn't do it. She may not want to put the blame on them, but what she wants doesn't matter when determining the guilty party. I'd say Natsushi has some pretty conclusive evidence she could present to prove Kinzo didn't do it.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:11
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Qrr posted:The Genji thing, sure. As for the others, maybe if that had been the argument used it would be ok. But that wasn't the argument they used - the argument they used was "The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counterargument". Actually, she said that in red, so she has straight up in red contradicted her right to ignore Battler's red truth. There's nothing in there about it only applying to witches. See the quote I showed above? The red has been noted as unusable as a detective technique, by Knox's 2nd. In the same way that the red says "there's only 5 master keys" to block "there can be any number of master keys that the servants don't have", the original use of it was dropped to block things like Tiny Bombs from being every single counterplay. Of course, it's gained other uses since then, but still. In this case, it's also supported by the testimony of everyone in the dining room that "everyone was together, and no one left until 1:00", with the red mainly being "no, there wasn't some way of putting a paper cutout there to fool everyone's eyes and sneak away". Qrr posted:Natsuhi does not have the ability to say that Krauss and Kinzo didn't do it. She may not want to put the blame on them, but what she wants doesn't matter when determining the guilty party. Actually, what she wants does matter, because the red truth is on the same meta level as the question as to whether Natsuhi wants to make Krauss the culprit or not. ProfessorProf posted:
That red truth is also not acknowledged in the game's verdict, where "he died soon after Natsuhi woke up" is changed to "he died between 24:00 and 1:00". That red truth was just a Bernkastel Bonus.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:19
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"I won't allow you to treat my husband like the culprit!! My husband is the next head of the Ushiromiya family!! The only person who will inherit the glory of the Ushiromiya family! I will never let you treat him like a criminal...!!"
"...Are you sure, Natsuhi...? If you refuse to suspect Krauss, then... you'll be the only one left. Alibis have been proven for everyone else, in other words, Hempel's Raven...! Even without any evidence, it will be determined that you are the culprit...!"
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No matter how much people complain, the established rule for a multiple games now is that only witches are allowed to use the Red Truth. So continuing to complain about how Battler's use of it was shot down due to it being completely unsubstantiated while the witches can do so is silly. You have to accept that fact, or this argument is not going to go anywhere. Battler's usage of it was effectively the same as using illegal evidence. Sure, it proves something, but it's also inadmissible and the point needs to be proved by other methods. And, while Erika does have a witch directly supporting her, she's done a drat good job of building a very solid case based on actual evidence even before Red Text came into play. There is certainly still wiggle room to fit between both the evidence and the Red Truths we currently have, but no one in the game has found a crack yet. Anyways, here are some of the Red Texts we currently have, as reminders. George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. Now admittedly we don't have it in red the exact timestamps of death for each one, but even if you want to use the theory that George somehow killed Krauss and made the body look like his, you now have to explain how he died. Or how Krauss made a phone call right before he was killed, despite Erika in the next room listening to everything. Speaking of which Krauss is really dead as well, along with not being the culprit. And I'm going to note here that Bern waited to give that Red until after Natsuhi refused to allow consideration of him as a possible culprit. Even giving her a second chance to foist off the crimes on him. Remember, the witches are here to be entertained. They're perfectly willing to forgo the truth so long as the circumstances are entertaining for them. Natsuhi breaking down and pushing the accusations off on the otherwise suspicious and missing Krauss probably would have been allowed, in spite of Bern sitting on that Red Truth.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:47
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Problem he got it from a Witch, so it works because if Miss "OC' can use them so can Battler. If the rule of Red Truth is broken by anyone the game is not valid any more.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:19
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Erika never proclaimed a red truth in this trial. Bernkastel did. She's a witch, she can do that.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:29
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In the context of arguing the case, Virgilia did not introduce the Red Truth, Battler did. No rules of Red were broken, because the one using it in their argument was not a witch, no matter where it was initially said. Moreover, it's not even like Bern's side said the truth was false, just that it is illegal for Battler to use it, because he is not the supernatural side, and thus it's invalid to be used in this trial regardless of whether or not it's true.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:34
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lotus circle posted:I just want you to know witchchat is now having a hot take conversation about slurs in the English language. It's a decent conversation to have, if it lends to awareness of how often people turn to misogyny whenever Erika does A Bad, Eva does a bullying, Beatrice takes a bite out of the chocolate cake that Battler was waiting all day to eat, or whenever a fictional portrayal of a female as written by a male does anything bad at all.  I can only hope it went well. I love Ryukishi07, but people are happily using real life slurs in response to a scenes from a fun/good mystery game he wrote that talks about issues with patriarchy, cycles of abuse, and the lifelong damage to personhood they leave. I don't know if it's ironic or not.I understand that the people I call out for using these slurs aren't really completely bad people nor irredeemable for perpetuating these bad misogynistic terms, because just like any of the Ushiromiyas in this story, I know that it's just the environment that we all grew up in that cause us to have these reflexes engrained in us. (Hey, has anybody rewatched some old movies from previous decades and realized that some of them have not aged well? Hooboy, I have.) I'm just hoping to point out that defaulting to misogynistic terms towards characters like Erika or Beatrice aren't cool, and hope that people can pinpoint their frustrations with them in ways that don't rely on gender or any other minority status. Let's use literary analysis instead, or something. tl;dr: The author of this game: "Hey, I'm going to show you folks what a long-term effect of X does throughout the decades by using a family as a model, how using X is Most Bad, and why breaking the cycles of X is important." The audience: "I'm going to use X." Me:  Tired Moritz posted:That loving (b)itch!!! This wasn't clever enough to hide the swipe towards me hoping that people would not to use misogynistic slurs towards fictional characters. You could have at least waited a few posts after Lotus Circle's post before making this hot take. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 06:45
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