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drat, just when I was going to come in here and agree with everything you said. Edit for top of page: gently caress BERNIE SANDERS
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Apr 21, 2017 08:24
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Bok Bok posted:Edit for top of page: gently caress BERNIE SANDERS wait what why
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Apr 21, 2017 12:33
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Tell the science fan normies about this:some loving nerd posted:I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society. https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/ spoilers it's Albert Einstein also what about Bernie?
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Apr 21, 2017 13:16
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aw I'm glad I'm not alone in this  here's what I posted on the march for science subreddit: quote:It's shameful when knowledge that benefits humanity--such as the harmful effects of cigarette smoke, the harmful effects of sugar & trans fats, the existence and causes of climate change, and even today the harmful effects of pesticide--have to compete with the interests of productive society. When corporations pay to stifle & obscure these findings, they are funding the development of ignorance.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:55
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Bernie Sanders Defends Campaigning For Anti-Abortion Rights Democrat http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat I voted for Bernie in the primary. I certainly agree with him on a lot of issues, but enough with the worship already. He is accomplishing nothing with whatever this loving national tour is supposed to be. He has done nothing but pay lip service to women and minorities and somehow keeps making it worse. He needs to go away or work behind the scenes to pave the way for a third party if he wants to be helpful. Supporting DINO (is that a thing because it should be) candidates fixes none of the problems he's been preaching about for years. It's time to move on from Bernie, he hasn't learned a loving thing. Great statement from NARAL yesterday: “The actions today by the DNC to embrace and support a candidate for office who will strip women – one of the most critical constituencies for the party – of our basic rights and freedom is not only disappointing, it is politically stupid. Today’s action make this so-called ‘fight back tour’ look more like a throw back tour for women and our rights. “If Democrats think the path forward following the 2016 election is to support candidates who substitute their own judgement and ideology for that of their female constituents, they have learned all the wrong lessons and are bound to lose. It’s not possible to have an authentic conversation about economic security for women that does not include our ability to decide when and how we have children. “The Democratic Party, and its leaders, would be ill-advised to ignore data that blocking access to legal abortion does not win you a single vote, and robs women of dignity and autonomy. Abortion access is not a ‘single issue’ or a ‘social issue.’ It is a proxy for women to have control over our lives, our family’s lives, our economic well-being, our dignity, and human rights. https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/2017/04/20/naral-statement-dnc-chair-perez-senator-sanders-embracing-anti-choice-candidate-nebraska-today/
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Apr 21, 2017 16:05
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Nah. I mean maybe his supporting of this guy is a mistake, I don't know the full context and no one else seems interested in sharing it apparently because I'm having trouble finding it out, but the argument that "We must have 100% ideological lockstep purity, but lol only behind the issues I think are important not the ones you think are important" is getting pretty loving old at this point. I am staunchly pro-choice. I would fight any attempt to embrace any anti-choice poo poo by the party at large. But on the ground level, you work with what you have and you continue trying to improve, and if this is really our best (or even only) chance to beat a similarly anti-Choice Republican with a Democrat that supports our priorities and values in most areas then we should absolutely be supporting him. Our allies are never going to be perfect. Even when they share the same core values they might very well prioritize them differently or just be plain wrong. Hell, I've been wrong about things I sincerely believed. I don't support ideological purges unless there's a serious risk of that mistake actually gaining traction in the party at large. Even from a pure pro-Choice perspective, considering the republicans have been pushing for mandatory ultrasounds, replacing them a guy who merely supports offering them to those who want them still seems like an improvement. And it's not like this is new, come on. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 16:40 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 16:30
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Ultrasound guy is awful, but I am confused why all the hate for supporting him seems to be directed only at Sanders and not Perez or the Democrats, who have a long history of nominating anti-choice candidates in the past.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:36
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Shear Modulus posted:Ultrasound guy is awful, but I am confused why all the hate for supporting him seems to be directed only at Sanders and not Perez or the Democrats, who have a long history of nominating anti-choice candidates in the past. You know the reason why lol
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Apr 21, 2017 16:39
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Shear Modulus posted:Ultrasound guy is awful, but I am confused why all the hate for supporting him seems to be directed only at Sanders and not Perez or the Democrats, who have a long history of nominating anti-choice candidates in the past. 100% Ideological purity is only required of the Left and those who consider it worth appealing to. Obviously normal Dems shouldn't be held to the same standard. Much like actually governing is only required of Dems and it doesn't matter when Republicans fail I guess.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:41
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Yeah, with my only knowledge on the topic being that article, it doesn't seem as bad as you framed it. In 2009, 8 years ago, someone sponsored a bill in loving Nebraska of all places, saying that patients pursuing an abortion be made away that they can have an ultrasound if they'd like. That's problematic because you're essentially trying to guilt people into not having an abortion, but it's not even remotely close to the garbage we've seen from the Rs. If that law is the price to pay to get a progressive involved in Nebraska politics, I'd say that's a pretty small concession to make. And again, it was 8 years ago. Has that Mello come out and made any statements about it recently?
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Apr 21, 2017 16:42
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But yea, I don't know if Sanders is just wrong about a lot of poo poo or if he's playing some kind of ten-dimensional chess nonsense but either way it sucks. Part of what I love about the DSA is that we don't compromise on that stuff.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:44
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Internet Explorer posted:If that law is the price to pay to get a progressive involved in Nebraska politics, I'd say that's a pretty small concession to make. And again, it was 8 years ago. Has that Mello come out and made any statements about it recently? On the other hand if he's co-sponsoring bills then he's already involved in Nebraska politics, so the bigger question for me is why Bernie is pushing an established Democrat I guess an actual dog posted:But yea, I don't know if Sanders is just wrong about a lot of poo poo or if he's playing some kind of ten-dimensional chess nonsense but either way it sucks. Part of what I love about the DSA is that we don't compromise on that stuff. The DSA should absolutely not join in on endorsing this guy, I think that much we can agree on. But Bernie's obvious goal is to make the next 4 years as big a Democratic wave as possible and to prove than a lot of the values and policies ignored by the Dems are capable of winning elections in unexpected places, and doing that means ultimately supporting a lot of less than ideal candidates - especially ones that aren't the same sort of "less than ideal" currently running the party. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 16:46 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 16:44
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I couldn’t give a rat’s rear end about Perez. The Dems could have made better choices but they haven’t and they won’t, whether or not Bernie shows up to give the same tired speeches. They are bought and paid for by special interests just as much as the far right—they’re still just negotiating price. The very idea of any man in power pushing ultrasounds on women screams “I didn’t take 4th grade biology class”. That or they are willfully choosing not to believe in the most basic facts of science in addition to being misogynist assholes. This is another reason why the march for science is important. I absolutely agree that purity tests are bullshit but if you think a woman’s bodily autonomy is a side issue you aren’t a socialist, you’re just another rhetoric over action Bernie bro.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:03
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Bok Bok posted:I absolutely agree that purity tests are bullshit but if you think a woman’s bodily autonomy is a side issue you aren’t a socialist, you’re just another rhetoric over action Bernie bro. Yeah, this is exactly what we're discussing.  How about not being a sexist piece of poo poo?
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Apr 21, 2017 18:07
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socialism, it's free real estate
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Apr 21, 2017 18:11
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Bernie's foreign policy is trash but I still very much like him and he's just about our only good ally on the national stage.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:12
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iirc Bernie's foreign policy is "we shouldn't overthrow the governments of people we don't approve of and we shouldn't get involved in foreign wars" which is light years ahead of every other elected official
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Apr 21, 2017 18:14
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Fullhouse posted:iirc Bernie's foreign policy is "we shouldn't overthrow the governments of people we don't approve of and we shouldn't get involved in foreign wars" which is light years ahead of every other elected official Unfortunately it's acutally "Assad must go". He's still mostly on the Dem party line about regime change, he just wants to do it as a big coalition so the U.S. doesn't shoulder the entire conflict. e: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-us-missile-strike-in-syria SMP has issued a correction as of 18:23 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 18:20
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Bernie makes a big show of going against the current of whatever bullshit centrist dems do but in the end all that really does make him hugely useful to them, because he's gonna help win a bunch of races that mainstream dems wouldn't have. I don't think he would have lasted in Washington this long if he was an actual danger to the status quo.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:33
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The best things you can say about Sanders is if the revolution came he probably wouldn't get in anybody's way, and he's certainly the best of a bad bunch (i.e. congresspeople with name recognition). We should take from him the tools to explain to voters why socialism is in their best interest, and the evidence that something considerably left of what the political mainstream is offering can actually play to a large audience. Shouldn't get too hung up on the man himself, though.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:48
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bernie sanders was least-bad compromise candidate and that hasnt really changed
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Apr 21, 2017 19:04
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an actual dog posted:I don't think he would have lasted in Washington this long if he was an actual danger to the status quo. Tbf he was a pariah up until 2016 and even then it wasn't for lack of trying on the DNCs part to primary him Edit: kind of funny how lots of centrists and beltway types went from laughing him off as a silly old man to viciously hating him overnight for some reason
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Apr 21, 2017 19:38
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https://twitter.com/awnyermarx/status/855496818679046146
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Apr 21, 2017 20:03
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Bok Bok posted:I absolutely agree that purity tests are bullshit but if you think a woman’s bodily autonomy is a side issue you aren’t a socialist, you’re just another rhetoric over action Bernie bro. Yeah I get it now. You're the sort of person that thinks important poo poo can be tossed away as side issues while your own opinions are sacrosanct and anyone who disagrees not even about values but about strategy can simply be slurred into irrelevance and dismissed. Would you care to share what issues you DO think its acceptable to treat as side issues? GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 00:15 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 23:16
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Bernie Sanders has done more for socialism in America in the past 2 years than PSL, IWW, SAlt etc. have done in the past 15 years combined.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:43
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Bok Bok posted:I couldn’t give a rat’s rear end about Perez. The Dems could have made better choices but they haven’t and they won’t, whether or not Bernie shows up to give the same tired speeches. They are bought and paid for by special interests just as much as the far right—they’re still just negotiating price. You know Planned Parenthood offers ultrasounds to people getting abortions right?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:44
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Est Dem1: It's simple, well smear Bernie via a a candidate he's supporting based on disengious accusations from a decade ago. Est Dem2: But what do we do after Perez gets the DNC chair?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:46
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GlyphGryph posted:Yeah I get it now. You're the sort of person that thinks important poo poo can be tossed away as side issues while your own opinions are sacrosanct and anyone who disagrees not even about values but about strategy can simply be slurred into irrelevance and dismissed. a socialism that compromises on women's liberation is not socialist. mello is not socialist (and neither is bernie), for many reasons imo dsa members should be spending their energies on getting socialists like kamau elected
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Apr 21, 2017 23:49
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Shear Modulus posted:a socialism that compromises on women's liberation is not socialist. Has anyone claimed Mello is a socialist or that socialism should compromise on womens liberation? Or even argued that the DSA should endorse this guy?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:56
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nick mullen, who is head of the DSA, endorsed him and said he lvoed him
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Apr 22, 2017 00:00
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That didnt make any sense to me so i have been looking into it and... apparently he isnt even politically anti choice and has promised to defend reproductive rights like abortion? Now I am really confused. Still pissed at what bok bok implied with how we should only accept compromise on other acceptable "side issues" and the lives ruined by those concessions, but now this conversation feels even dumber. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 00:29 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 00:24
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GlyphGryph posted:That didnt make any sense to me so i have been looking into it and... apparently he isnt even politically anti choice and has promised to defend reproductive rights like abortion? i dunno i've heard that he has wierd opinions on abortion and also that he doesn't and that hillarymen are making poo poo up. I ultimately dont give a poo poo because lmao he's running for a local position in another state who gaf i have enough poo poo to worry about in my own back yard without giving twitter drama undue importance
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Apr 22, 2017 00:31
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Ace of Baes posted:Bernie Sanders has done more for socialism in America in the past 2 years than PSL, IWW, SAlt etc. have done in the past 15 years combined. This is really disingenuous and ignores the fact that a candidate like Sanders could not have emerged if it had not been for the re-emergence of working class politics over the past 5-10 years due to circumstances like the Occupy protests, the Wisconsin public sector union fight, the $15 an hour minimum wage, Black Lives Matter, etc. All of these actions and campaigns have been organized by on the ground activists in some of the organizations you mention and many others. It's fair to say that Sanders has really popularized the idea of socialism in the US but it's really crappy to disparage the work of socialists who have dedicated their lives to fighting capitalism. You might disagree with their tactics or approach and that's valid, but don't diminish their work or ascribe to some great man version of history where Sanders alone is the single reason socialist politics are gaining support right now.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:16
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when has rallying around a central divine figure ever been the total downfall of a communist movement
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Apr 22, 2017 01:17
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besides every single time
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Apr 22, 2017 01:17
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Exactly. I was speaking directly to why I'm not part of the Bernie worship. This isn't the sole reason but Imani Gandy elaborates on why it's so offensive for him to be cozying up to this Mello idiot better than I ever could. This is an extremely good article on the subject that includes links to Mello's actual record. I don't know how his anti-choice voting history became optional ultrasounds like at Planned Parenthood but your sources are incorrect. https://rewire.news/ablc/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-no-revolution-reproductive-rights/ "Pro-choice values should be a prerequisite for progressivism. Reproductive autonomy isn’t just a social issue or an issue about which reasonable minds can disagree. Reproductive autonomy is a human right—and last I checked, stripping a basic human right from 50 percent of the population of this country is not progressive. Here’s the thing that really chaps my hide, though: I’d be willing to bet everything that I own that Sanders would exclude from his reformed Democratic Party any candidate who disagreed about challenging Wall Street or regulating banks. He would likely excoriate any Democratic candidate that he felt was “in bed with Wall Street,” a charge he repeatedly lobbed at Clinton during the primaries. But co-sponsor a bill forcing women to have a foreign object inserted into their vagina against their will in order to make sure that the poor dears have made the right choice when it comes to their own body? Meh. No big deal. We’ll still let you join the progressive revolution." Look, obviously we can't all agree on every policy detail or we'd be brain-dead Fox watchers. You can disagree on certain issues without dismissing a person entirely but this is one subject that is absolutely non-negotiable.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:27
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Bok Bok posted:Exactly. I was speaking directly to why I'm not part of the Bernie worship. This isn't the sole reason but Imani Gandy elaborates on why it's so offensive for him to be cozying up to this Mello idiot better than I ever could. This is an extremely good article on the subject that includes links to Mello's actual record. I don't know how his anti-choice voting history became optional ultrasounds like at Planned Parenthood but your sources are incorrect. The source was the article you posted you sexist gently caress.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:51
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apropos to nothing posted:This is really disingenuous and ignores the fact that a candidate like Sanders could not have emerged if it had not been for the re-emergence of working class politics over the past 5-10 years due to circumstances like the Occupy protests, the Wisconsin public sector union fight, the $15 an hour minimum wage, Black Lives Matter, etc. All of these actions and campaigns have been organized by on the ground activists in some of the organizations you mention and many others. It's fair to say that Sanders has really popularized the idea of socialism in the US but it's really crappy to disparage the work of socialists who have dedicated their lives to fighting capitalism. They have made strides, but uhhh, the fact still remains that w.o. Bernie the DSA would probably still have 8,000 members and Socialism would still be considered the same way people currently look at communism/anarchism.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:00
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Folks trying to paint Bernie as being anti choice or w.e. are about as genuine as the people trying to call him racist for not advocating for reparations or abolition of police during the Dem primary.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:05
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Sexist Racist Bernie Sanders is most popular with whites, males. Oh wait that's least popular whoops
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Apr 22, 2017 03:21
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