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apple posted:Yeah I mean there's that, but this somehow keeps happening time and time again which is weird. My guess is said person has some perceived clout partly due to "tenure" in the sense that this person has been around since forever, plays a lot and writes massive amounts of words. OTOH the usual problem consistently comes up: presenting things as self-evident fact, or even worse as absolutes (in a game like Crawl this is a good way to ruin a discussion since so many situations aren't black and white at all). This seems to foster the type of discussion where people try to read between the lines, only everyone's interpretation is slightly different and everyone fights each other, it's pretty silly. That thread on "Eurocentrism" is no exception even if the focus is more on the flavor aspects of DCSS. I haven't followed the recent discussions on the Tavern at all, even if I think that the general conversation about what is and isn't okay to say is in fact very productive, in spite of how awful the actual contents of the dialogue might be. But I agree that the tavern cannot possibly produce a good outcome in this situation because of the general tone and quality of posts there. I think the good-faith to shitpost ratio on both SA and the Tavern is something like 40/60, but on the Tavern, the 40% of good posters are engaged in a constant pissing contest over who can be the best and simultaneously most sarcastic player. There might be reason to grudgingly include Duvessa/minmay among the good posters in the Tavern, even though I disagree with him (her?) on almost everything and think Crawl will improve drastically on the day that he finally vanishes up his own rear end in a top hat into a little ball of creepiness and hate. But I completely agree with your assessment here. Duvessa/minmay posts a lot of good points, and not infrequently backs them up with extremely strong experience of the game and good logical reasoning. But he frequently posts in completely absolute terms even, or especially, about very controversial points, and responds with absolute disdain to those with less than his own, perceived, authority. I have never seen him respond to anyone but another blue-titled tavern poster or a dev with anything resembling the tone one would take when communicating with an adult. If he had some mastery of the basics of human interaction, he would be a valuable member of the community, but his inability to express himself in a way acceptable to most other members of the species renders his contributions vastly less valuable than they would otherwise deserve to be. My favorite Duvessa gems of late: Teleportitis is never meaningfully dangerous in any situation he can think of, and casters have higher max MP than they will ever need by the time they reach lair. I'm sure in a certain (perhaps highly abstracted, idealized sense) these are true for Duvessa. But they are far from true for the vast majority of people who play the game, and that almost certainly includes players better than Duvessa himself. I'm sure there are many other, more absurd statements of his that I've had the good fortune to have never read. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 16:04
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Any reasonable forum would have banned duvessa long ago. Instead it's the alt account of a moderator
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Apr 22, 2017 17:21
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On a more lighthearted note, the true prize of a trove full of axes: p - the +11 executioner's axe of Cuck {antimagic, *Drain rElec rC- MR+++}
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Apr 22, 2017 17:43
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Jonah Galtberg posted:Trolls? Tolkien, cut Humans? Too boring, cut
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Apr 22, 2017 17:45
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Also being able to use shatter against that blue statue wizard is ableist
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Apr 22, 2017 18:33
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I once started a MiBe with the goal of earning the Chief of Staff title, and I poured all my xp into staves once I could because it was a dumb gimmick. I ended up winning despite my idiocy because Trog gifted me a +10 randart lajatang of speed at some point in Lair. What I'm getting at is MiBe, Oriental Mysticm and made up weapons are all overpowered and should be removed from the game.
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Apr 22, 2017 18:46
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Heithinn Grasida posted:stuff Yeah, I will say I've agreed with things duvessa said before, and I like the idea of considering how to draw flavor from real-life sources on paper, just not how it was approached. I don't even think duvessa necessarily does their zany antics on purpose but they certainly are enabled in tavern "culture". The teleportitis line is pretty insane lol. Even if it were somehow true with some esoteric interpretation, any sufficiently unqualified statement like that becomes near indistinguishable from bad advice (which happens more often than not). That mutation *will* find ways to kill you, it's explicitly designed that way!
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Apr 23, 2017 00:40
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Saying teleportitis is never dangerous is stupid. If you can't think of a situation where being teleported in front of monsters can be dangerous then you're not thinking very hard. I've noticed there is this trend among "good" crawl players to act like Crawl is super easy even though their winrates don't back up this assertion. If you look at the top 100 players, most don't even have a winrate over 10%. How can you claim a game is easy when you aren't even beating it more than 1/10 of the time? Then there are devs who say they want to make the game harder when they have atrocious winrates and it baffles me. Even when you have a strong understanding of Crawl, consistently playing perfectly and never making major mistakes is a level of skill most of us don't reach. There are players that can streak 30+ times in a row, but most people even in the top 100 can't come close to that.
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Apr 23, 2017 00:48
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There's this tendency to keep seeing where people are always like "____ is easy you just inflict damage on it until its hitpoints reach zero" or "____ is boring because it just deals damage" or whatever when the entire point is that individual elements of the game are straightforward and easily solved and it's in combination that they make the game hard.
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Apr 23, 2017 01:09
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Araganzar posted:This is how I felt, to a lesser extent, for me it was more that people were actually trying to witch hunt the devs responsible. That's beyond the pale. That thread actually isn't locked, I just posted a note asking people to chill out with the snark after you got that (unhelpful) response. It's tough for people to keep calm when discussing these things, sometimes.
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Apr 23, 2017 05:30
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gammafunk posted:That thread actually isn't locked, I just posted a note asking people to chill out with the snark after you got that (unhelpful) response. It's tough for people to keep calm when discussing these things, sometimes. To be honest, gamma, there are lot of folks there that could probably manage it if they made even the slightest effort to get along. TBQH, that stuff doesn't get under my skin. The biggest impediment to reasonable discourse is the persistent dogmatism from a few people who follow every thread like they think it's loving their girlfriend. I understand the difficulties this presents to the moderators and I try to be sympathetic when I can remember to. edit: oh yah, per your suggestion I did oneandwon a naga. To increase your chances of wining NaAr, I recommend transitioning from a +9 exec axe of chop to a +9 exec axe of vamp around Depths. Araganzar fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 07:41
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Finally finished the hardest combo, MiBe! By hardest I mean hardest to play without slamming tab and getting yourself killed! Only took me like 6 years and 5 other ascentions! edit: is 2 hours fast? i have no idea what constitutes a fast win but that feels pretty speedy to me tote up a bags fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 10:55
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tote up a bags posted:Finally finished the hardest combo, MiBe! By hardest I mean hardest to play without slamming tab and getting yourself killed! Only took me like 6 years and 5 other ascentions! That's super fast. It's rare for me to win in under 5 hours. Can't believe you 15-runed a melee gargoyle before 3-runing an MiBe. So I'm playing an Ogre, take the stairs down to Swamp 4. Some dick shouts and brings the whole vault down on me before I can even move. So no problem, I'll just take one of the other two stairs and...   Fun activity, see if you can spot the shambling mangrove. I've named him Waldo. There's a trap door but my armor consists of a hat and troll skin so maybe I'll just come back in about a billion years.
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Apr 23, 2017 17:53
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Jonah Galtberg posted:Trolls? Tolkien, cut Replace all monsters and players with various kinds of crab?
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Apr 23, 2017 18:18
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Noone tell the devs that Jiangshi are actually Chinese hopping vampires in origin and not based on an anime chick from Capcom's Darkstalkers fighting game or they will remove them next.
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Apr 23, 2017 18:29
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I liked Sword of Jihad, but I completely understand that it was changed. Jihad has a very warped connotation in English and I've had games ruined for me because the devs refuse to consider that I don't want to think about "fantasy racism" when I'm playing. What I enjoyed about it was the flavor and the new sword is lacking so that sucks, but can be rectified. If seeing the old name earnestly upset anyone, I'm perfectly fine with the name change. It's not really a sacrifice because I never see it, but you know.
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Apr 23, 2017 18:58
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Sword of Four Blades moving in Four Directions
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Apr 23, 2017 19:00
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Sword of being really angry about religion
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Apr 23, 2017 19:22
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Foxfire_ posted:Replace all monsters and players with various kinds of crab? Sorry, the Númenóreans were renowned mariners and surely fished for and ate crabs.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:44
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Foxfire_ posted:Replace all monsters and players with various kinds of crab? Done. Now need to get someone to fix whatever I screwed up, add this to lang-fake.cc, and commit it. Designed so the canon playthrough is as a merman using polearms. Feel free to suggest additions or modifications.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:53
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Vinestalkers absolutely need to be renamed to Crabgrass.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:58
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Araganzar posted:Done. Now need to get someone to fix whatever I screwed up, add this to lang-fake.cc, and commit it. If there was a way to play with custom fakelangs I would absolutely do this.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:00
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Polearms-> Polepincers Triple Sword-> Triple Claw Crababudduqha
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Apr 23, 2017 20:06
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I like having real-world religious and mythological references because I think religions are cool and it's easier to grasp a reference to Efreet than Hepliaklqana (especially in a game that isn't really into doing things for the sake of atmosphere) Although I also thought that having YHWH, Amaterasu and Shiva all packed into the same game was what makes Shin Megami Tensei so much fun to play
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Apr 23, 2017 22:09
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Araganzar posted:Done. Now need to get someone to fix whatever I screwed up, add this to lang-fake.cc, and commit it. It's currently crashing whenever it tries to replace a word, so I'll have to go through the list and figure out why.
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Apr 23, 2017 22:57
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Fortuitous Bumble posted:I like having real-world religious and mythological references because I think religions are cool and it's easier to grasp a reference to Efreet than Hepliaklqana (especially in a game that isn't really into doing things for the sake of atmosphere) Yeah, the SMT series have been making religious and mythological references since forever and it does a pretty nice job at establishing an alternate mythos that's legitimately interesting specifically because of those references. It's also one of those controversial games that regularly come up in similar discussions like these (very obviously Christianity-based god being portrayed as not so good, Krishna is also heavily featured in SMTIV Apocalypse, etc.) but I think Atlus has walked this path carefully enough if the game can appear on a 3DS and is also one of Atlus's best selling games. Like, you can spend hours upon hours reading SMT wikis because there's so much lore derived from real-world references that is fascinating to read because of how it was adapted to the SMT world. This kind of thing I'm definitely down for, OTOH if you just slap on a real-world reference onto DCSS without making it feel like it's /actually/ part of the world you're doing exactly that: copying a reference onto a game. DCSS isn't exactly about the story, so this is fine to some extent, but for what purpose is pretty important. Let's say there's one main type of reference that Crawl makes, basically references to add flavor/badassery to something. For example: I like enemies like seraphs/daevas and stuff because I associate those names with "badass divine dudes". Similarly if you find Sharnga you'd think "oh cool this bow belongs to a god". There's countless examples for weapons in games, religious or not (Longinus spear, Masamune, Excalibur, Mjollnir, etc.) On the other hand like Chakan mentioned with sword of Jihad it has a very warped connotation in English which is reinforced by the description, I don't feel like this is badass at all. Because of how it's presented, the ties it has to the negative connotations is so strong that I can't think of that weapon as something cool or badass, it's just this awkward weapon that has a bad name. Even SMT games use "Jihad" but in a different manner: it's just the name of a top tier physical attack. It's a subtle but important difference.
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Apr 23, 2017 23:18
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Araganzar posted:That's super fast. It's rare for me to win in under 5 hours. Can't believe you 15-runed a melee gargoyle before 3-runing an MiBe. Tab holding is a powerful drug
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Apr 24, 2017 01:16
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Floodkiller posted:It's currently crashing whenever it tries to replace a word, so I'll have to go through the list and figure out why. It looks like I got crablang working by stripping out all the ^ and $, as well as condensing the last couple line replacements to the same two string format that the rest of them are in. Here's the branch comparison if you want to see the modifications. It's not fully tested yet, so I don't know if all the replacements are working or if any crashes occur, but a quick new game shows it is at least functioning at first glance. It also definitely needs to be a full replacement, at least of all possible monsters; anything less would not fully honor the crab.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:50
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Floodkiller posted:It looks like I got crablang working by stripping out all the ^ and $, as well as condensing the last couple line replacements to the same two string format that the rest of them are in. Here's the branch comparison if you want to see the modifications. Hmmm the dwarven language uses that format to make sure for example replacing "you" with "yer" doesn't alo replace "bayou" with "bayer". I'll PM you. It might be I was using ~ as a marker for spaces and forgot to replace them when I was done.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:16
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Just died to my own ghost, a yup.
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Apr 24, 2017 05:05
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Ok progress is being made on crabman language: Floodkiller has been real boss on helping with this and it's possible we'll get it into a webtiles branch somewhere. I also finally won a first-try Halfling, went Pakellas in 0.18 but I didn't get great evocables, had a crap weapon, and no resists but rPois. So I swap to Oka and his first gift is +5 double sword of Cobwebs {speed, +Rage Int+6 Stlth+}. This leaves me with Spriggan, Troll, Tengu, and Felid left to win for greatoneandwon. I have only 8 tries left on Spriggan and only 6 on Troll (e.g. I fail six more times on Tr and I can never ever EVER oneandwon the race). Sp - Ar, EE, FE, Fi, Hu, IE, Su, and Wn Tr - Ar, As, Be, En, FE, IE Once I splat TrBe, these all look super hard. Any recommended combos for a particular release?
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Apr 25, 2017 02:53
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SpAr and SpIE are fairly classic combos, TrAs isn't trash either. Troll can be basically run by ignoring your class, turn on Unarmed Combat and Trog it up.
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Apr 25, 2017 04:21
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SpEE is easy, it's just super boring even for Sp because of the extra kiting to regen mana. EE can go almost pure earth so their garbage conj apt doesn't hurt much and you can get petrify easy. Alternatively, sling spriggan hunter is pretty easy mode.
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Apr 25, 2017 04:52
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Darox posted:SpEE is easy, it's just super boring even for Sp because of the extra kiting to regen mana. EE can go almost pure earth so their garbage conj apt doesn't hurt much and you can get petrify easy. How do you manage hunger relying on casting? That's always my issue with Sp. Maybe I'm too paranoid about food usage.
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Apr 25, 2017 05:20
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They've got a pretty good spellcasting Apt. Or you can worship Gozag
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Apr 25, 2017 05:30
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Araganzar posted:How do you manage hunger relying on casting? That's always my issue with Sp. Maybe I'm too paranoid about food usage. This is the second reason SpEE is extra boring. Stick to the lower level spells for anything you can safely kite, keep boosting that spellcasting. Food isn't that strict though, you can get away with 5-6# hunger LRDs occasionally for the dangerous fights and it gets easier the further you go as long as you don't try to shatterspam asap.
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Apr 25, 2017 06:19
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Darox posted:This is the second reason SpEE is extra boring. Stick to the lower level spells for anything you can safely kite, keep boosting that spellcasting. Food isn't that strict though, you can get away with 5-6# hunger LRDs occasionally for the dangerous fights and it gets easier the further you go as long as you don't try to shatterspam asap. Ok last question - Looking both at wins and attempts, most popular gods are Ash, Vehumet, and Sif. Which is the least painful? I would usually go Vehumet on a fragile race for the extra range and also unlike Sif Vehumet's mana return does not cost hunger. But divine energy doesn't cost hunger and it looks like you would use channel WAY less often than with old Sif. Ash would make petrify stabbing very easy.
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Apr 25, 2017 06:38
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My personal preference would always be Vehumet, but I don't think Sif would be much worse. I haven't done much petrify stabbing but my impression was that it's kinda weak. You're like a hexer hybrid except you need more skill to pull it off and it's less flexible. Maybe with Ash it would be okay but it seems like an unreliable tactic.
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Apr 25, 2017 07:26
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Just started playing DeFE, and D:1 has a Crystal Plate Armor. Thanks, Crawl!
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Apr 25, 2017 08:00
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I feel like there should be a Xom vault that spawns artifact gear that your current race can't use. Maybe there is one already.
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Apr 25, 2017 08:12
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