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TheRat posted:Lets say I'm a slightly racist, poor, working class leftist. How easy would you say it is for me to pick Macron over Le Pen: The political compass demonstrates once again that everything america gives to political science is a nonsensical blight on actual discourse. Disaffected leftists are gearing up for the legislatives, they're not getting ready to give power to a nazi.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:18
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the concept of the political compass is such a useless crock of poo poo
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Apr 23, 2017 20:20
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Agnosticnixie posted:The political compass demonstrates once again that everything america gives to political science is a nonsensical blight on actual discourse. Are you saying the laissez-fair neoliberal banker is not right wing? Another Person posted:the concept of the political compass is such a useless crock of poo poo It's no more useless than trying to put people on a left to right scale.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:19
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MiddleOne posted:So your fear is that the EU would function like literally every other parliamentary democracy on the planet? The EU isn't a single country and the backlash to that would be immense.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:19
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TheRat posted:Are you saying the laissez-fair neoliberal banker is not right wing? I'm saying the political compass' idea of centrist is simplistic to the point of stupitidy and relies on the political center being the democratic party. Presenting Le Pen as a centrist based on a couple soundbites is also stupid beyond belief.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:21
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Fillon has just released a statement asking his voters to vote for Macron in the second round.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:20
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Agnosticnixie posted:I'm saying the political compass' idea of centrist is simplistic to the point of stupitidy and relies on the political center being the democratic party. The american democratic party has nothing to do with the centre, neither in the political compass nor in reality.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:21
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Al-Saqr posted:Fillon has just released a statement asking his voters to vote for Macron in the second round. Of course he has. Anyone who matters will.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:21
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Al-Saqr posted:Fillon has just released a statement asking his voters to vote for Macron in the second round. watch them raise their collective middle fingers at Fillon and vote for Le Pen instead
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Apr 23, 2017 20:22
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TheRat posted:The american democratic party has nothing to do with the centre, neither in the political compass nor in reality. ROFLMAO in the literal sense.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:23
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TheRat posted:Lets say I'm a slightly racist, poor, working class leftist. How easy would you say it is for me to pick Macron over Le Pen: Noted centrist Le Pen
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Apr 23, 2017 20:22
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Lid posted:Noted centrist Le Pen
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Apr 23, 2017 20:24
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TheRat posted:It's no more useless than trying to put people on a left to right scale. I am strongly against the very idea of attempting to quantify political views on scales or compasses because nothing is ever clear cut, as compasses attempt to make out. Also, the very concept of a compass or scale gives some innate bias towards liberalism, because that is what becomes deemed the normalised middle ground, which it really is not at all.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:24
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I think people shouldn't panic about the fascist possibly winning until it actually happens since all signs are pointing to her getting crushed
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Apr 23, 2017 20:25
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Andrast posted:I think people shouldn't panic about the fascist possibly winning until it actually happens since all signs are pointing to her getting crushed Centrist!
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Apr 23, 2017 20:26
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Andrast posted:I think people shouldn't panic about the fascist possibly winning until it actually happens since all signs are pointing to her getting crushed i think they should bitch
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Apr 23, 2017 20:27
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here is a hint why that compass is wrong; macron's policies are basically tony blair's policies
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Apr 23, 2017 20:28
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Another Person posted:here is a hint why that compass is wrong; macron's policies are basically tony blair's policies Yes?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:30
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Andrast posted:The EU isn't a single country and the backlash to that would be immense. The alternative, which you have now, is that one single country *cough* Luxembourg *cough* can hold up things like banking reform to increase transparency and reduce the ability of companies and people to avoid or evade taxes.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:31
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The right isn't purely defined by libertarian economics, if anything laissez-faire economics is a lot more centrist than whatever fascism is. Fascism is literally an outright rejection of modern values in favor of a return to a romanticized vision of days gone by, especially back before the freemasons and jews destroyed the natural social order of king, church and country. The left-right-authoritarian-libertarian compass is an intellectually bankrupt sleight of hand from the same people who decided to use the term libertarian to pawn off their particularly heinous brand of capitalism.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:32
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TheRat posted:Yes? if you are looking at what i just said, and then looking at the compass and thinking "these two things agree with each other" then i don't know what to say, forums user TheRat
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Apr 23, 2017 20:31
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Another Person posted:if you are looking at what i just said, and then looking at the compass and thinking "these two things agree with each other" then i don't know what to say, forums user TheRat Well forums user Another Person, I would argue that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair is a neoliberal warcriminal oval office.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:34
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TheRat posted:Well forums user Another Person, I would argue that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair is a neoliberal warcriminal oval office. Neoliberal, take a shot
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Apr 23, 2017 20:34
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You should have just let Hollande run you rubes.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:35
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TheRat posted:Well forums user Another Person, I would argue that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair is a neoliberal warcriminal oval office. He's also the arch-centrist/center right turncoat socialist.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:34
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Apr 23, 2017 20:36
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Is Flowers For Algeria dead or...?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:43
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MiddleOne posted:So your fear is that the EU would function like literally every other parliamentary democracy on the planet? Yes. The EU should not be like every other parliamentary democracy until a very large majority of its citizens think of themselves as Europeans first and foremost, rather than French, Slovakians, Finns or Greeks. Until that is the case, we should ensure that national governments remain firmly involved in the legislative process to ensure the legitimacy of the EU's decisions. Also, what Junior G-Man said last page.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:42
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Junior G-man posted:Well, no. Oh brother that's not even the legislative chart. That's just a chart illustrating the relations of the 7 core institutions that make up the EU. Here is an actual legislative chart, and no, most member have a substantially less steps than this.  Junior G-man posted:The only added layer that makes Europe more complicated is that it arises from the very fact that it is Europe; i.e. 28 (for now) Member States who all get a say at various levels in the process. That seems entirely reasonable to me, and the diagram you included should actually have a big red text at the bottom saying "YOUR GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU IN BRUSSELS AND IS CO-RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS THERE, NEVER MIND WHAT THEY PRETEND AT HOME". Yes but that's not an unintended consequence, that is intentional. It allows governments to hold different positions domestically and supra-nationally without angering voters. See for instance Sweden having a super liberal immigration policy domestically for decades while pretty much rubber stamping almost every anti-immigration policy and treaty amendment in the Council of Ministers and European Council. It's not a design flaw, it's working exactly as it's supposed to. Junior G-man posted:The decision making process is structured in such a way to give Member States and Parliament the most input at every stage, which is sort of necessary if you want to create legitimacy in the process, yes? While you may not like your current government, or the decisions it makes at home or in Brussels, you can't deny that the Will Of Your Country - from Malta to Germany - isn't heard. This is exactly why the structure is the way it is. MP's are already elected locally so remind me again why we need representatives of representatives to do this. And no, the democratic legitimacy of the EU is perceived as very low specifically because of systems like these. Junior G-man posted:The process wasn't designed to be obtrusive or slow, the process was designed for input along the way Hey, lets call a spade a spade. The EU has unnecessarily many avenues of 'input' if that is what you want to call it. The US (Fillibuster, Presidential VETO and the Supreme Court) and Iran (Guardian Council) have similar problems. The EU apes separations of powers as a system and somehow manages to be worse than literally every other implementation of it. I wonder why that might be. Junior G-man posted:The reason, as was pointed out before, why most people don't understand the EU process is because generally they don't understand their own home processes, especially if you add in the courts and auditors checks. Yes, but that's a flaw of the entire EU member state system. American's have at least a vague understanding of how Congress functions and so do most national citizens of their parliament and government structure. They might not know the details of the legislative process, but they do at least know who to blame when things go against their interests. In comparison, EU citizens have barely any understanding of what the European Parliament capabilities within the EU even are and much less how Commission, Council's, member states and courts all play into it. Just look at the debates that preceded Brexit if you believe otherwise. That's without even getting into bodies like the Eurogroup which exists outside of the formal power-structure but wield huge power within certain countries. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 20:43
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Fascist does not mean right-wing so Le Pen being in the centre does not make her any less of a fascist. After all, the archetypal fascist Hitler lead a party called the National Socialists, who were also centrist or even left-wing in the traditional economic sense.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:46
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https://twitter.com/jimbrunsden/status/856226067404779522 e: also https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/856228682356080640
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Apr 23, 2017 20:48
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Another Person posted:here is a hint why that compass is wrong; macron's policies are basically tony blair's policies tony at least could pass his platform off as merely accepting what the status quo had become after 18 years of tory rule. this guy wants to proactively do that stuff himself Flayer posted:Fascist does not mean right-wing so Le Pen being in the centre does not make her any less of a fascist. After all, the archetypal fascist Hitler lead a party called the National Socialists, who were also centrist or even left-wing in the traditional economic sense. fascist is equivalent in meaning to far right in common speech, the only reason people would try to make it otherwise is to establish the Good Conservatives that we can work with, and that's an asinine, terrible idea
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Apr 23, 2017 20:51
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Is it too early to start making Mélenchon would have won memes
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Apr 23, 2017 20:50
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Yes. The EU should not be like every other parliamentary democracy until a very large majority of its citizens think of themselves as Europeans first and foremost, rather than French, Slovakians, Finns or Greeks. Until that is the case, we should ensure that national governments remain firmly involved in the legislative process to ensure the legitimacy of the EU's decisions. Also, what Junior G-Man said last page. Well that was a problem that the EU was trying to solve until everything went tits-up with the Eurozone crisis. 
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Apr 23, 2017 20:51
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whomupclicklike posted:Is it too early to start making Mélenchon would have one memes One what?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:51
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TheRat posted:One what? Please spare me I started drinking at 11
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Apr 23, 2017 20:52
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Flayer posted:Fascist does not mean right-wing so Le Pen being in the centre does not make her any less of a fascist. After all, the archetypal fascist Hitler lead a party called the National Socialists, who were also centrist or even left-wing in the traditional economic sense. Truly Hitler was the Commie Nazi.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:52
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Flayer posted:Fascist does not mean right-wing so Le Pen being in the centre does not make her any less of a fascist. After all, the archetypal fascist Hitler lead a party called the National Socialists, who were also centrist or even left-wing in the traditional economic sense. There is nothing traditional about dividing left and right purely on an economic basis. More importantly the National Socialists were absolutely not left wing, they had a few populist soundbites that would have been at home with the welfare policies of Bismarck, but for the most part they were absolutely a party that pushed for ethnic capitalism on the economic level rather than any semblance of socialist policies. poo poo even n the dumb libertarian "all forms of state intervention in the economy are left wing" arc, the nazis weren't that interventionist and kept the lowest taxes of every WW2 belligerent (unless you were an undesirable).
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Apr 23, 2017 20:53
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So much for the tolerant centre
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Apr 23, 2017 20:55
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poty posted:So much for the tolerant centre Thank god
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Apr 23, 2017 20:58
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