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duodenum posted:The descendants of slaves are still a beleaguered underclass in this country, and making their children walk down streets, past monuments, and attend schools named for their ancestors' tormentors and murders is a continuing injury that is completely unnecessary. i know, right?  definitely remove all the george washington statues for starters
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Apr 26, 2017 23:06
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duodenum posted:The descendants of slaves are still a beleaguered underclass in this country, and making their children walk down streets, past monuments, and attend schools named for their ancestors' tormentors and murders is a continuing injury that is completely unnecessary. Asimo posted:I agree, it should be recognized with statues and monuments openly praising and honoring violent racists in our town squares, forever. Their existence as an underclass isn't rectified through the destruction of monuments. If it's a step towards changing the material reality that the descendants of slaves face, then I'm all for it, but I suspect that this is a token effort. If the ruling class was interested in actually repairing the damage that has done been to these people then we wouldn't be having this conversation now. 
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Apr 26, 2017 23:29
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Sure, black people have to live in cities surrounded by monuments glorifying white supremacists, but what about my rights as a white person to appreciate those racist monuments? Also racism is hard to fix so I'll just assume that everyone else is complicit in it too even while I personal argue to block simple gestures that are harmless to implement. 
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Apr 26, 2017 23:35
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let's compromise, leave the monuments up, and let everybody deface them as much as they want  
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Apr 27, 2017 00:19
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Apr 27, 2017 00:25
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boner confessor posted:i know, right? You're pushing this false equivalency so hard, it feels like you have a different agenda. Are you illogically knee-jerk protecting the honor of the people who used to live on patch of dirt you happened to be born on? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMZfCar-Ks8 Koschei posted:... a token effort. Removing the monuments may be a token effort, but letting them remain is a continuous and callous assault on the dignity of African Americans in this country. All for your precious "heritage." When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. You guys are living proof that we should have elected William Tecumseh Sherman president and asked bugs bunny to make his cut a little further north. duodenum fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 01:02
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Losers shouldn't get monuments.  For every confederate monument in the US, there should be a monument to the British who fought against us in the revolution.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:20
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Spotted in Milano: Antifa sticker with a neo-fascist symbol scratched into it. Asimo posted:Sure, black people have to live in cities surrounded by monuments glorifying white supremacists, but what about my rights as a white person to appreciate those racist monuments? Solution: Replace all statues of Confederates with statues of John Brown, Nat Turner, Sherman, and Harriet Tubman. Rename all public places and buildings named after Confederates to "Malcolm X [Whatever]"
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Apr 27, 2017 01:50
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duodenum posted:You guys Stop chasing internet boogeymen and read deeper into the issues before you put me in a box. The material reality of living in poverty in one of the wealthiest nations is more of an indignity than a hunk of rock standing in a city square. Especially so when you're a descendant of the slaves that generated all of the capital that built that wealth. Do you think that someone who's struggling to feed or clothe themselves, or their children cares that you took down a statue? Do you think that someone who has to live in fear of police simply because of their skin colour worries about statues? Don't kid yourself. 
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Apr 27, 2017 02:00
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is there a reason we can't both tear down the statues and care about poverty or are you the only guy smart enough to see the "real issues"
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Apr 27, 2017 02:06
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Koschei posted:Stop chasing internet boogeymen and read deeper into the issues before you put me in a box. The material reality of living in poverty in one of the wealthiest nations is more of an indignity than a hunk of rock standing in a city square. Especially so when you're a descendant of the slaves that generated all of the capital that built that wealth. Do you think that someone who's struggling to feed or clothe themselves, or their children cares that you took down a statue? Do you think that someone who has to live in fear of police simply because of their skin colour worries about statues? You put yourself in that box when you argue the minutiae of the perception or value of whether or not to destroy the monuments to the traitors. The destruction the monuments and the rejection of the South's reverence for the traitors (who fought to enslave their fellow man for their own profit and political power) is an important step to the healing of this nation that we STILL have not taken. How can you honestly believe the rest of the paragraph you posted and not understand how damaging it is to have to explain to your children that the statue there is the local plantation owner who used to own your great great great grandfather and these white people you see around you will lynch you if you complain about it. *gently caress* you. 
duodenum fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 02:20
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duodenum posted:You're pushing this false equivalency so hard, it feels like you have a different agenda. Are you illogically knee-jerk protecting the honor of the people who used to live on patch of dirt you happened to be born on? false equivalency? are you struggling with the fact that many of america's revered founding fathers were the very same tormenters you pretend to resist? it's odd that you're strictly angry about confederate slaveowners but the existence of slavery in america prior to 1860 is something you apparently want to defend. when you talk about people who "walk down streets, past monuments, and attend schools named for their ancestors' tormentors" do you somehow think this doesn't apply to george washington square or thomas jefferson high school? what you should be saying is "yes all slave owners are bad" and not "well some slave owners were worse than others" as if you can excuse the ownership of another person. there's no false equivalency when it comes to human bondage it really seems to me you're not at all interested in rectifying the sins of the past, but pretending your heritage is not part of that heritage by blaming someone else. i wouldn't blame you for lacking the moral conviction to live up to your own statements, many people aren't that strong of character duodenum posted:You put yourself in that box when you argue the minutiae of the perception or value of whether or not to destroy the monuments to the traitors. The destruction the monuments and the rejection of the South's reverence for the traitors (who fought to enslave their fellow man for their own profit and political power) is an important step to the healing of this nation that we STILL have not taken. How can you honestly believe the rest of the paragraph you posted and not understand how damaging it is to have to explain to your children that the statue there is the local plantation owner who used to own your great great great grandfather and these white people you see around you will lynch you if you complain about it. pretty great you can say this then turn around and say "george washington is off limits though". it's almost like you dont really believe what you're saying or something 
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 02:23
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Holy poo poo did I touch the poop or what? Hey assholes, there is a difference between people who took up arms to defend their right to enslave their fellow man, thereby murdering hundreds of thousands for their racist political and social ideology, and dudes like Washington and Jefferson. You cannot paint everyone in history with the blood from your murderous traitors ancestors' hands. It doesn't help absolve them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2017 02:31
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There is some delicious irony though in the Virginian southerners using the term slavery in the context of their issue with the British parliament
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Apr 27, 2017 02:35
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 Maybe it's just my non-American perspective looking in, but I really don't see much difference between Washington, Jefferson and the big time confederate leaders? They all started wars that got people very dead, and owned plantations full of slaves. There's even a slave plantation on the American nickel. pesty13480 fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 02:41
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duodenum posted:Hey assholes, there is a difference between people who took up arms to defend their right to enslave their fellow man, thereby murdering hundreds of thousands for their racist political and social ideology, and dudes like Washington and Jefferson. i can't? why not? in what way was washington a more virtuous slave owner than jefferson davis? how was his slave ownership more noble? why should he be celebrated as a great hero of human freedom when if he were born 60 years later you'd be calling him a cowardly racist criminal? a short answer will do you're getting confused here - you are convinced i'm trying to say the confederate slave owners were great men. i am not. i am saying the founders of our country were also cowardly racist slaveowners. you find this thought disgusting and hard to swallow. why do you think this way? also post a picture  pesty13480 posted:
it depends on how hard you want to pretend that american racism and white supremacy only existed in the south from the years 1860-1865
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Apr 27, 2017 02:41
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boner, you've broadened the scope of the discussion. It was about monuments in the South being taken down and somehow now it's supposedly about me not understanding that slavery existed outside the South between 1860 an 1865. gently caress you.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:46
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duodenum posted:boner, you've broadened the scope of the discussion. i'm sorry that you're struggling with american history and the horror it represents but this is entirely your problem, not mine. i'll forgive you for your anger, which is born out of shame and guilt, but i strongly encourage you to educate yourself further to prevent further embarassment the truth is that the confederates saw themselves as the descendants of the founding fathers, arguing that if they were uncomfortable with slavery they would have done something about it when they were creating the foundational documents of our nation, and that this was an american right worth fighting a revolution over. you can ignore that if you want - that slavery was explicitly permitted as a core american freedom - and pretend that isn't part of your heritage if you can't deal with the reality of it, but it's better for you to come to terms with our nation's disgusting legacy 
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 02:50
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boner confessor posted:i'm sorry that you're struggling with american history and the horror it represents but this is entirely your problem, not mine. i'll forgive you for your anger, which is born out of shame and guilt, but i strongly encourage you to educate yourself further to prevent further embarassment But they lost and the confederacy is dead. So why build monuments to a cause that was as wholly defeated as a cause can be? What do you want, someone to say "actually, I think slavery is good and the confederate monuments are bad!" The gently caress is your point? And as the confederacy is dead, it has no members. It is not part of this nation. It is not part of this nation's heritage and monuments to it shouldn't be on government land. 
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Apr 27, 2017 03:05
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theres a will theres moe posted:But they lost and the confederacy is dead. So why build monuments to a cause that was as wholly defeated as a cause can be? who is building new confederate monuments? as i said on the last page, i think confederate memorials should be removed and if they're put up for display again at all, it should be in a museum of american - not confederate - history theres a will theres moe posted:The gently caress is your point? my point is that pretending that the legacy of racial hatred and slavery is an exclusively southern phenomenon is itself historical revisionism which seeks to distance the united states as it is from its own ugly history. you can't just pretend that racism was somehow solved once the south was defeated. this is simple ignorance that demonstrates a shocking lack of understanding about american history before and after the brief period of the treasonous slaver's rebellion. it's a way of saying "that can't happen here" when talking about what still happens all across america, today. it's a way to pretend that some other america, not the america you belong to, is the america of racial repression, slave brutalization, and centuries of white supremacy. it's the all lives matter of historical understanding, and it should be mocked as the nonsense it is theres a will theres moe posted:And as the confederacy is dead, it has no members. It is not part of this nation. It is not part of this nation's heritage and monuments to it shouldn't be on government land. i agree with you with one exception - national military parks. these are places which preserve and interpret the past as it was as much as possible, which includes the memorials and monuments of those who fought the battle or experienced it within living memory. the only place it is appropriate to have confederate memorials outdoors are on the fields and hillsides where soldiers died to defeat it 
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 03:11
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Many of the confederate monuments were built from 1950 onwards. Most of them don't come from the time of the confederacy or it's immediate aftermath at all. Break em all.
Schizotek fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 03:13
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A lot of Confederate monuments and uses of the battle flag in state flags and such are results of a backlash to the civil rights movement. Build a huge monument to slavery to justify the contemporary battle over the state's right to uphold Jim Crow and segregation by refrencing the glorious, but tragically unsuccessful, battle for the state's right to allow people to own other people. Also you might scare some black folks into submission. Unrelated 
FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 03:20
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Don't care how you try and frame it, defending racist monuments is racist. -snip, not necessary- (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2017 03:20
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Schizotek posted:Many of the confederate monuments were built from 1950 onwards. Most of them don't come from the time of the confederacy or it's immediate aftermath at all. Break em all. well a fair number of them are from that period, but it doesn't really matter how old they are. i agree with your overall point. much of confederate symbology is really about 20th century reactions to civil rights, and the "heritage, not hate" argument most refers to a heritage of white supremacist politics in the 1960's, not a heritage of rebellion. the rebels are all long dead, and their history has been largely forgotten and replaced by something even less credible than misguided racist nationalism and just to keep repeating myself to throw water on any derails, i think the monuments should be taken down with few exceptions 
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 03:24
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boner confessor posted:who is building new confederate monuments? as i said on the last page, i think confederate memorials should be removed and if they're put up for display again at all, it should be in a museum of american - not confederate - history Telling confederate sympathizers to gently caress off and get their dead gay monuments off my lawn isn't the same thing as saying "the north was perfect!" Somebody posted that old "and you are lynching negroes" Russian tu quoque propaganda earlier because it's perfectly analogous to your pointless argument. So what? George Washington had slaves. That doesn't make the cotton fields any less lovely. You wanna argue that, more power to you - take it to a president's day parade where it's relevant (but unpopular), don't use it to defend traitors. 
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Apr 27, 2017 03:33
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All I'm saying is that Lincoln was our greatest president and he suspended habeas corpus so maybe we should just try that again and see if it helps.
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Apr 27, 2017 03:53
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theres a will theres moe posted:Telling confederate sympathizers to gently caress off and get their dead gay monuments off my lawn isn't the same thing as saying "the north was perfect!" Somebody posted that old "and you are lynching negroes" Russian tu quoque propaganda earlier because it's perfectly analogous to your pointless argument. So what? George Washington had slaves. That doesn't make the cotton fields any less lovely. You wanna argue that, more power to you - take it to a president's day parade where it's relevant (but unpopular), don't use it to defend traitors. i can't help you if you've read my posts and decided that i'm defending confederates. that's your lack of comphrehension, not my lack of explanation. i was just reiterating to the guy who wanted to talk about lynching (again, distinct from the confederacy, taking place generally fifty years later) who seemed incredulous when i told him that a not inconsequential amount of this violence took place outside of the south. i said it about as clearly as i can quote:you're getting confused here - you are convinced i'm trying to say the confederate slave owners were great men. i am not. i am saying the founders of our country were also cowardly racist slaveowners. you find this thought disgusting and hard to swallow. why do you think this way? you can do what you will with those facts, and whether you accept or reject history is your choice. we all have our own comfort levels 
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 03:54
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In America, forward is this direction: 
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Apr 27, 2017 04:10
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Apr 27, 2017 04:13
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boner confessor posted:and just to keep repeating myself to throw water on any derails, i think the monuments should be taken down with few exceptions what exceptions are you making, bust em all down 
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Apr 27, 2017 04:21
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stone cold posted:what exceptions are you making, bust em all down boner confessor posted:i agree with you with one exception - national military parks. these are places which preserve and interpret the past as it was as much as possible, which includes the memorials and monuments of those who fought the battle or experienced it within living memory. the only place it is appropriate to have confederate memorials outdoors are on the fields and hillsides where soldiers died to defeat it i'd prefer to obscure or paint over the stone mountain carving simply because most memorials can be removed for a few hundred thousand dollars but it would take tens of millions to scrape that one off the side of the mountain versus just a giant sheet or clown paint. maybe if there was a compromise and you just beheaded them or something 
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Apr 27, 2017 04:39
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boner confessor posted:i'd prefer to obscure or paint over the stone mountain carving simply because most memorials can be removed for a few hundred thousand dollars but it would take tens of millions to scrape that one off the side of the mountain versus just a giant sheet or clown paint. maybe if there was a compromise and you just beheaded them or something Spend the tens of millions but instead of removing the monument just carve in a giant Lincoln making this face and taking a big poo poo on top of them. 
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Apr 27, 2017 05:11
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Or
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Apr 27, 2017 05:23
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https://twitter.com/rcalo/status/857379143737950209
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Apr 27, 2017 12:56
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boner confessor posted:i know, right? This but unironically. That monument was made by a racist to explicitly celebrate American imperialism and the white man's burden. https://twitter.com/CarlBeijer/status/857589803264684033
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Apr 27, 2017 15:05
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Apr 27, 2017 16:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUepX_AAmuw Lest We Forget
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Apr 27, 2017 16:18
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Wrongthink is double plus ungood and will not be tolerated 
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Apr 27, 2017 16:53
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https://twitter.com/realDiegoFJ/status/857317865661321217
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Apr 27, 2017 18:15
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