Star Wars: Millenial Trash Discussion Station

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Snowman_McK: Jan 31, 2010

homullus posted:

So the main criticism of Aaron Sorkin is that he writes shows that aren't realistic . . . for television . . .?

The main criticism of him is that he keeps reusing the same material over and over. There are compilations of lines, scenes and events he's reused repeatedly on youtube.

Then there's his weird philosophy that it's all the fault of young people. He kicked off two of his shows with scenes of an old man getting angry about young people uncritically swallowing media.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:01

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# ? May 28, 2024 12:27

Hodgepodge: Jan 29, 2006; Can't post for 212 days!

homullus posted:

So the main criticism of Aaron Sorkin is that he writes shows that aren't realistic . . . for television . . .?

No, it is that the series is a manifesto for ineffectual yet self-righteous centrism which shaped a generation of Democrats:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/04/how-liberals-fell-in-love-with-the-west-wing

quote:

But promoting or endorsing any specific policy orientation is not the show’s trueraison d’être. At the conclusion of its seven seasons it remains unclear if the Bartlet administration has succeeded at all in fundamentally altering the contours of American life. In fact, after two terms in the White House, Bartlet’s gang of hyper-educated, hyper-competent politicos do not seem to have any transformational policy achievements whatsoever. Even in their most unconstrained and idealized political fantasies, liberals manage to accomplish nothing.

The lack of any serious attempts to change anything reflect a certain apoliticaltendency in this type of politics, one that defines itself by its manner and attitude rather than a vision of the change it wishes to see in the world. Insofar as there is an identifiable ideology, it isn’t one definitively wedded to a particular program of reform, but instead to a particular aesthetic of political institutions. The business of leveraging democracy for any specific purpose comes second to how its institutional liturgy and processes look and, more importantly, how they make us feel—virtue being attached more to posture and affect than to any particular goal. Echoing Sorkin’s 1995 film The American President (in many ways the progenitor of The West Wing) it delights in invoking “seriousness” and the supposedly hard-headed pragmatism of grownups.

Consider a scene from Season 2’s “The War at Home”, in which Toby Ziegler confronts a rogue Democratic Senator over his objections to Social Security cuts prospectively to be made in collaboration with a Republican Congress. The episode’s protagonist certainly isn’t the latter, who tries to draw a line in the sand over the “compromising of basic Democratic values” and threatens to run a third party presidential campaign, only to be admonished acerbically by Ziegler:

“If you think demonizing people who are trying to govern responsibly is the way to protect our liberal base, then speaking as a liberal…go to bed, would you please?…Come at us from the left, and I’m gonna own your rear end.”

The administration and its staff are invariably depicted as tribunes of the serious and the mature, their ideological malleability taken to signify their virtue more than any fealty to specific liberal principles.

Even when the show ventures to criticize the institutions of American democracy, it never retreats from a foundational reverence for their supposed enlightenment and the essential nobility of most of the people who administer them. As such, the presidency’s basic function is to appear presidential and, more than anything, Jed Bartlet’s patrician aura and respectable disposition make him the perfect avatar for the West Wing universe’s often maudlin deference to the liturgy of “the office.” “Seriousness,” then— the superlative quality in the Sorkin taxonomy of virtues—implies presiding over the political consensus, tinkering here and there, and looking stylish in the process by way of soaring oratory and white-collar chic.

“Make this election about smart, and not. Make it about engaged, and not. Qualified, and not. Make it about a heavyweight. You’re a heavyweight. And you’ve been holding me up for too many rounds.”

—Toby Ziegler, Hartsfield’s Landing (Season 3, Episode 14)

Despite its relatively thin ideological commitments, there is a general tenor to theWest Wing universe that cannot be called anything other than smug.

It’s a smugness born of the view that politics is less a terrain of clashing values and interests than a perpetual pitting of the clever against the ignorant and obtuse. The clever wield facts and reason, while the foolish cling to effortlessly-exposed fictions and the braying prejudices of provincial rubes. In emphasizing intelligence over ideology, what follows is a fetishization of “elevated discourse” regardless of its actual outcomes or conclusions. The greatest political victories involve semantically dismantling an opponent’s argument or exposing its hypocrisy, usually by way of some grand rhetorical gesture. Categories like left and right become less significant, provided that the competing interlocutors are deemed respectably smart and practice the designated etiquette. The Discourse becomes a category of its own, to be protected and nourished by Serious People conversing respectfully while shutting down the stupid with heavy-handed moral sanctimony.

In Toby Ziegler’s “smart and not,” “qualified and not” formulation, we can see a preview of the (disastrous) rhetorical strategy that Hillary Clinton would ultimately adopt against Donald Trump. Don’t make it about vision, make it about qualification. Don’t make it about your plans for how to make people’s lives better, make it about your superior moral character. Fundamentally, make it about how smart and good and serious you are, and how bad and dumb and unserious they are.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Apr 28, 2017

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:02

Serf: May 5, 2011

He's also just a terrible fuckin writer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S78RzZr3IwI

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:07

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

homullus posted:

So the main criticism of Aaron Sorkin is that he writes shows that aren't realistic . . . for television . . .?

His shows both promote the sort of "when they go low we go high" politics that place self-righteousness over actually serving your community or helping people, as well as promote compromise as the ultimate end of politics.

So it's not that his shows aren't realistic so much that they're fictitious in a way that's simultaneously morally fraught and largely uninteresting.

Granted, that is not an unimpressive combination.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:15

Die Sexmonster!: Nov 30, 2005

Snowman_McK posted:

He kicked off two of his shows with scenes of an old man getting angry about young people uncritically swallowing media.

I mean, I'm not here to defend a shred of Sorkin's shitshows, but that's eerily prophetic!

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:34

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

So not realistic (like most prime time TV), morally fraught (like most prime time TV), and repetitive (like many long-running TV series), and many people consumed it uncritically (like . . . you get it).

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:37

Phi230: Feb 2, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

homullus posted:

So not realistic (like most prime time TV), morally fraught (like most prime time TV), and repetitive (like many long-running TV series), and many people consumed it uncritically (like . . . you get it).

Look we all know you're slow but he's bad because he's actually broken the brains of most people in power, unlike the prequels which have only broken your brain

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:44

Zeris: Apr 15, 2003; Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

homullus posted:

So the main criticism of Aaron Sorkin is that he writes shows that aren't realistic . . . for television . . .?

He promised a political fanbase an imaginary reality that proved to be incredibly damaging-

Well I guess that applies to more than one person.

_____ is babyboomer jesus.

Zeris fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Apr 28, 2017

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:54

porfiria: Dec 10, 2008; by Modern Video Games

Not wanting to change anything is a reasonably good idea when you're an all powerful hegemon.

Also, Social Network was pretty good. Also, using some turns of phrase twice over the course of hundreds of hours of material isn't that bad.

Sorkin does suck pretty bad in a lot of cases though.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:58

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Phi230 posted:

Look we all know you're slow but he's bad because he's actually broken the brains of most people in power, unlike the prequels which have only broken your brain

If only the Evil Doctor Sorkin had used his mind control ray for good, rather than evil!

# ? Apr 28, 2017 01:58

Zeris: Apr 15, 2003; Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

homullus posted:

If only the Evil Doctor Sorkin had used his mind control ray for good, rather than evil!

This isn't happening. Look, the jedi were already corrupted and waiting for a push to send them toppling. Don't talk to us like we're other people. You bet your rear end that even though Sorkin has taken on an international flavor and picked up baby boomers used to being overpromised-to and overdelivered-to, poo poo would've gone south eventually. It's not important that everybody gets to play. Nobody's denying this although you're right to point out some of the anti-Sorkin posts, and you know it, but the absence of admonishment regarding overlap in faults with Sorkin's storytelling logic and the way politics lately have come to resemble getting screwed with your pants...it's got to change.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:04

Snowman_McK: Jan 31, 2010

Die Sexmonster! posted:

I mean, I'm not here to defend a shred of Sorkin's shitshows, but that's eerily prophetic!

Not really, seeing as it was old people who voted for things like Brexit and Trump.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:04

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Zeris posted:

This isn't happening. Look, the jedi were already corrupted and waiting for a push to send them toppling. Don't talk to us like we're other people. You bet your rear end that even though Sorkin has taken on an international flavor and picked up baby boomers used to being overpromised-to and overdelivered-to, poo poo would've gone south eventually. It's not important that everybody gets to play. Nobody's denying this although you're right to point out some of the anti-Sorkin posts, and you know it, but the absence of admonishment regarding overlap in faults with Sorkin's storytelling logic and the way politics lately have come to resemble getting screwed with your pants...it's got to change.

I don't understand this post, but I will change my pants and stop defending shows I don't watch.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:17

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I have a question. What do moisture vaporators do?

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:27

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Jewmanji posted:

I have a question. What do moisture vaporators do?

collects moisture from the air

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:34

HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

Harvest moisture from the desert air by condensing it. The Larses are basically what you'd get if the fremen of Arrakis had no class consciousness.

HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Apr 28, 2017

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:38

Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

ANH talks about "harvest" and "seasons", which to me gives the impression that moisture farming was supposed to be farming actual crops using atmospheric moisture. Everything since though has made it about getting the water itself.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:43

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

You do harvest, and the seasons would have different air moisture content

# ? Apr 28, 2017 02:52

Neo Rasa: Mar 8, 2007; Everyone should play DUKE games.

Lord Hydronium posted:

ANH talks about "harvest" and "seasons", which to me gives the impression that moisture farming was supposed to be farming actual crops using atmospheric moisture. Everything since though has made it about getting the water itself.

I just figured it was because Dune has moisture farmers. In the book Dune's "polar ice caps" are basically barren desert like the rest of the planet but the atmosphere there is just moist enough that there are people who "farm" it and then transport water to other urban areas to sell. Basically if you're not a Fremen but live or work on Dune full time buying water from such folks is how you don't die. The whole thing is only mentioned briefly but that area recedes and expands seasonally and everything like starkebn suggests.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 28, 2017

# ? Apr 28, 2017 03:03

duz: Jul 11, 2005; Come on Ilhan, lets go bag us a shitpost

Lord Hydronium posted:

ANH talks about "harvest" and "seasons", which to me gives the impression that moisture farming was supposed to be farming actual crops using atmospheric moisture. Everything since though has made it about getting the water itself.

I've heard both. Either they're harvesting water or the vaporators are for watering actual crops. I'm not sure anyone decided for sure back then.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 03:16

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

They probably have multiple kinds of produce there. The main one is water, collected from atmospheric condensation, but likely some food as well.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 03:22

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

We are literally discussing loving farming.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 04:24

duz: Jul 11, 2005; Come on Ilhan, lets go bag us a shitpost

Covok posted:

We are literally discussing loving farming.

You should've seen what was discussed back in the late 80s early 90s dry spell.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 04:33

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

A New Hope has more lines about farming than The Phantom Menace does about trade agreements.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 04:32

HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

I dunno, the series' treatment of food and agriculture is a pretty rich vein, I think, for how conspicuously absent it is. Jabba is the most obvious glutton of the movies, and his appetite is played for disgust and comedy. Feasts or ceremonial offerings of food are scenes of peril and deception�Ewoks with the heros on spits, the Bespin dinner set, tea for the Jedi ambassadors. Blue milk is an obvious signifier of the shittiness of spacefuture backwater farming. Dexter's diner is actually probably the most welcoming and appealing eatery depicted in the series�or possibly the food stall Jar Jar attempts to steal from. I can't recall if you even see the food in Dexter's.

Yoda takes apparent delight in his Dagobah stews and covets Luke's survival rations, and Jar Jar steals from the stall, but both were generally portraying a fool archetype in association with their display of appetite. Are there any other heroic characters that are shown enjoying food, up until Rey has her gross biscuit? Anakin and Padme have a dinner date as part of their secret romance, iirc, but I don't remember if they actually ate at all.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 04:49

Detective No. 27: Jun 7, 2006

Yoda nearly ate a senate seat in Revenge of the Sith. And on the blurays, you can see little bite marks all over any sets Ian McDiarmid was in because he was chewing the scenery.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 04:58

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

Given how often the point of view character is an appetite-less droid, it's not too surprising. C3PO would probably describe the consumption and digestion of food for substance as vulgar.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 05:22

Hodgepodge: Jan 29, 2006; Can't post for 212 days!

iirc, Anakin is shown helping with dinner preparations to show that he's experiencing a 'normal' family life for the first time on Naboo with Padme.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 05:34

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

Covok posted:

We are literally discussing loving farming.

please don't kinkshame

# ? Apr 28, 2017 06:12

Zeris: Apr 15, 2003; Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OnfFkV6Hkc finishes a bite in the first frame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buyflmtHcHc bite at :40

# ? Apr 28, 2017 06:51

sassassin: Apr 3, 2010; by Azathoth

Obi-Wan would not approve of Anakin feeding Padme his pear.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 09:53

Danger: Jan 4, 2004; all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

Depictions of food and eating/drinking are centrally important in a film. That's like film school 101.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 13:47

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Phi230 posted:

Look we all know you're slow but he's bad because he's actually broken the brains of most people in power, unlike the prequels which have only broken your brain

I don't think we have to worry about Trump having watched the show, for some reason.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 13:51

Cash Monet: Apr 5, 2009

A Few Good Men and The Social Network were great y'all are haters.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 14:29

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

HookedOnChthonics posted:

I dunno, the series' treatment of food and agriculture is a pretty rich vein, I think, for how conspicuously absent it is. Jabba is the most obvious glutton of the movies, and his appetite is played for disgust and comedy. Feasts or ceremonial offerings of food are scenes of peril and deception�Ewoks with the heros on spits, the Bespin dinner set, tea for the Jedi ambassadors. Blue milk is an obvious signifier of the shittiness of spacefuture backwater farming. Dexter's diner is actually probably the most welcoming and appealing eatery depicted in the series�or possibly the food stall Jar Jar attempts to steal from. I can't recall if you even see the food in Dexter's.

Yoda takes apparent delight in his Dagobah stews and covets Luke's survival rations, and Jar Jar steals from the stall, but both were generally portraying a fool archetype in association with their display of appetite. Are there any other heroic characters that are shown enjoying food, up until Rey has her gross biscuit? Anakin and Padme have a dinner date as part of their secret romance, iirc, but I don't remember if they actually ate at all.

It was SMG or Cnut who pointed out that the Jango clones all have empty dishes.

# ? Apr 28, 2017 14:30