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Subjunctive posted:Hmm, he said Versatile but I'll ask. It's probably not worth it for OA protection and reach 1, yeah. If you do drop it though, Battlewise is always solid. Controllers really like going first to screw with the enemy before melee starts, especially since both of your ranged at-wills make it so enemies don't want to move.
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Apr 29, 2017 22:07
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Gharbad the Weak posted:What timezones y'all at? I'm Central, my friend is Eastern. I'm in Eastern too, so if yall start something up I'd definitely be interested!
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Apr 29, 2017 22:38
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Subjunctive posted:Hmm, he said Versatile but I'll ask. It's probably not worth it for OA protection and reach 1, yeah. It TOTALLY is worth it for the OA protection. Staff Expertise is one of the few that's worth taking even if you have the expertise bonus already. Maybe not your first feat though.
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Apr 29, 2017 23:06
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DM says I can take Staff instead of Versatile, so I'll grab Battlewise as well!
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Apr 29, 2017 23:57
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Feat tax and letting you take the best feat? Good DM.
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Apr 30, 2017 01:08
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Gharbad the Weak posted:What timezones y'all at? I'm Central, my friend is Eastern. Subjunctive posted:DM says I can take Staff instead of Versatile, so I'll grab Battlewise as well!
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Apr 30, 2017 01:13
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The Crotch posted:Just a head's up: Improved Initiative's flat +4 will get you a bigger boost than Battlewise, which just swaps wisdom in for dex.
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Apr 30, 2017 07:05
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I think Dex Druid is way better than Con Druid at low levels. That level one encounter giving -Dex mod to defenses is just ridiculous. Edit: Not that it probably matters, grasping tide and fire hawk tend to be more than enough for most fights. Giant Toad is also fantastic. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 07:13
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One nice thing about con Druid is that it kept me from dying and I got pounded on. I couldn't land Thorn Spray to save my life, though. I had a great time (gradenko_2000 is a fun DM!) but I didn't feel like I did a great job of controlling things. I guess if TS had landed more often it would have helped. Grasping tide wasn't as helpful as I'd have liked because we engaged in melee quickly and so the enemies didn't have to move much. Maybe if we'd attacked and shifted more, idk. I also failed to use the reach bonus of Staff Expertise, because I forgot about it.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:36
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The reach bonus isn't really relevant for any non-Sentinel druid. You use your beast form to make melee attacks, not your staff.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:08
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Subjunctive posted:One nice thing about con Druid is that it kept me from dying and I got pounded on. I couldn't land Thorn Spray to save my life, though. The Crotch posted:The reach bonus isn't really relevant for any non-Sentinel druid. You use your beast form to make melee attacks, not your staff.
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May 1, 2017 02:56
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The real jewel of staff expertise, as I'm sure I've mentioned it before, is combining it with Arena Training style Fighter, as their benefit was made before the various _______ Expertise feats, and thus, by taking Staff as one of your arena weapons, you can apply the increase in reach to any other arena weapons.
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May 1, 2017 06:29
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ProfessorCirno posted:The real jewel of staff expertise, as I'm sure I've mentioned it before, is combining it with Arena Training style Fighter, as their benefit was made before the various _______ Expertise feats, and thus, by taking Staff as one of your arena weapons, you can apply the increase in reach to any other arena weapons.
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May 1, 2017 19:11
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I'd allow it. Using this trick basically requires the fighter to use their entire class feature on +1 reach. It isn't threatening reach, so they can't use the extra range to make OAs, and fighter mark punishment is restricted to adjacent enemies, even when the fighter is using a reach weapon. All they can really do with it is mark/strike at range and that can easily deny the fighter and the group flanking bonuses on the enemy. Sure, you could do something like Fighter|Warden hybrid and use the warden mark punishment, since that's not adjacent restricted, but that's burning a ton of class features and feats on it and it still doesn't grant threatening reach. Basically I just feel this costs more than it's worth when you get down to it.
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May 1, 2017 21:22
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Is there any way to get feat bonuses to warlock attack powers with shortbows outside of Implement Expertise or Versatile Expertise? Trying to make a warlock build with Moonbow Dedicate, and I'm trying to find a way to get implement bonuses for the powers.
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May 1, 2017 22:42
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Khizan posted:I'd allow it. 
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May 1, 2017 22:54
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I swear there is a ki focus enchantment that grants you +1 to reach but I cannot find it. I feel like I'm going crazy.
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May 1, 2017 23:09
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berenzen posted:Is there any way to get feat bonuses to warlock attack powers with shortbows outside of Implement Expertise or Versatile Expertise? Trying to make a warlock build with Moonbow Dedicate, and I'm trying to find a way to get implement bonuses for the powers. Have a DM who's a cool dude and scales the game right regardless.
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May 1, 2017 23:12
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Well, yeah. This would be a free expertise feat. I can get the bonus, but I wondering if there's anything aside from implement/versatile expertise that'd work as well, because bow expertise doesn't work.
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May 1, 2017 23:22
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Nope not for Moonbow Dedicate AFAIK. It's one of the penalties of using bow weaplements in 4e. Crossbow Artificers are also sad pandas.
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May 1, 2017 23:26
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I'd probably allow the reach shenanigans of an arena fighter, but I don't know how I'd handle someone trying to tack Polearm Master on to that.
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May 2, 2017 00:19
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Dick Burglar posted:
I'm just saying it's no kind of essential fantasy archetype or anything that even makes narrative sense. It's a weird, funny rules trick. And, like, cool if you're into that, I'm content to leave it as a Murphy's Rule.
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May 2, 2017 00:21
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Dick Burglar posted:
You may be missing it because it's a superior Ki focus, so need the proficiency feat to quality and also it won't show up when scrolling through a big pile of magic items due to technically being mundane. KEYWORDS  (The good news is you still get to keep your favorite enchantment on it).Transcendent Ki focus. Which has Reaching (+1 reach using a melee implement attack), and blinking (concealment until start of your next turn if you hit with a teleportation attack). Took me a bit to find. I still have my on life support insider account, but today's latest  is that 99% of the dropdown filters are gone from the compendium while I'm trying to use it. But I can still apparently search stuff and use my character builder... for the moment. But just search terms has always been notoriously finicky.EDIT: As for Staff Expertise = reach on everything on arena fighter... Does original print Arena fighter not specify it's perk only applies to to-hit and Damage feat bonuses? Because the arena fighter trick only applies to feat bonuses for To-Hit and Damage, not "Literally any kind of feat bonus". This is so the sort of thing I've considered in the past then realized "Wait, that won't work because-" a dozen dejavu inducing times. Section Z fucked around with this message at 00:50 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 00:36
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In the offline builder at least, the pertinent part of the arena fighter goes like this: "In addition, any of your feats that grant feat bonuses to attack rolls or damage rolls with one of your arena weapons apply to your other arena weapons as well." The implication being that the + to hit or damage is the requirement to get the feat to work on non-staff weapons, but it still carries the whole feat over, not just the mathematical bonus.
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May 2, 2017 01:18
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The Crotch posted:In the offline builder at least, the pertinent part of the arena fighter goes like this: Stuff like this is probably why they had to errata sneak attack/quarry/etc to explicitly say "You have to HIT with your attacks to deal sneak damage, come on you guys  "Though my personal favorite errata I can ever remember offhand, was sorcerer lightning strike getting patched to explicitly not be allowed to shoot yourself in the face with it's secondary effect, because people were using that to trigger Took Damage abilities. Made more personally amusing to me, because my group let me get away with flagrant bullshit dealing that Sorc Mod damage through walls and doors, just because it was funny... But my idea of glossing over line of effect rules was still nothing compared to what most people did with it. "Yeah, sure I made a tiny 4 damage lightning bolt crawl under a door to zap a minion. But at least I'm not shooting MYSELF with it." EDIT: What I'm trying to get at is, if your group thinks it's funny enough then it's never a problem to bend the rules into a pretzel. But it's safer in the long run to err on the side of "How much of a stretch is it for this to be taken that way?" for general discussion. Granted, my mindset is also borne of many groups who were flagrant munchkin bullshit players constantly aghast at me trying to use bog standard rules in ways that didn't fit their world view. Like say, trying to use my bargain bin sound based powers to project spooky sounds being cheating "Because you didn't take the ventroliquism skill"... But then turning around and suggest I use powers as points intensive as sound system as a 5 kilometer range intimidate attack on my spooky guy who could make batman poo poo himself. Now THAT'S fair gameplay!
Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:59 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 01:41
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The Crotch posted:In the offline builder at least, the pertinent part of the arena fighter goes like this:
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May 2, 2017 01:56
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Section Z posted:Now THAT'S fair gameplay!
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May 2, 2017 02:10
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Here is my counterpoint: that dumb reach thing is literally the only thing that arena fighters get
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May 2, 2017 02:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:Here is my counterpoint: that dumb reach thing is literally the only thing that arena fighters get Half of their main benefit did get effectively eaten by Master of Arms tho.  Regardless, I don't think you balance a subclass by funny rules quirks. You balance them by balancing them.
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May 2, 2017 02:24
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ProfessorCirno posted:Here is my counterpoint: that dumb reach thing is literally the only thing that arena fighters get The weird Essentials Expertise Feats are really the only thing Arena Fighters have going for them outside of picking up a Superior Weapon from the outset. Otherwise they're forced to wear light armor to even qualify for the armor increase and get to use math bonuses or feats that are often freely given out as house-rules anyway on both your weapons. And then you don't even get to qualify for some of the better fighter feats because you didn't get Weapon Specialization and don't get that sweet, sweet straight +1 to hit for existing as a fighter. Also, don't forget Hammer Expertise, though. Can get a polearm momentum character that extra square without having to wear Rushing Cleats or whatever.
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May 2, 2017 02:42
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dwarf74 posted:Nah, it's a decent enough path, especially with its armor bonus. Also the ability to just effectively use whatever object is at hand is quote:Regardless, I don't think you balance a subclass by funny rules quirks. You balance them by balancing them. It's a dumb quirk but you have to start somewhere man
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May 2, 2017 02:45
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Mecha Gojira posted:The weird Essentials Expertise Feats are really the only thing Arena Fighters have going for them outside of picking up a Superior Weapon from the outset. Otherwise they're forced to wear light armor to even qualify for the armor increase and get to use math bonuses or feats that are often freely given out as house-rules anyway on both your weapons. And then you don't even get to qualify for some of the better fighter feats because you didn't get Weapon Specialization and don't get that sweet, sweet straight +1 to hit for existing as a fighter.
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May 4, 2017 12:58
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dont even fink about it posted:It's a dumb quirk but you have to start somewhere man I feel I should point out that an Arena Fighter is never unarmed because Unarmed attacks are Improvised weapons and therefore the Arena Fighter is ALWAYS getting a proficiency bonus AND a better die roll for damage on literally any attack they make, with or without weapons. I always felt this was better than Fighter Weapon Talent because FWT is just a +1 to attacks rolls to ONE weapon subset and that's all she wrote. Whoopie. I almost always take Arena Fighter over Fighter Weapon Talent because one option is versatile while the other is a boring +1 that literally does nothing else for your character. Fighters by default are already ahead of the curve when it comes to breaking enemy Defenses because their class feature, the thing they do best, Marking and hitting on OAs already gets a flexible +X from Combat Superiority.
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May 4, 2017 15:10
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Arena Fighter is perhaps the strongest option for a low level fighter just because of the ease of getting superior weapon proficiencies without spending a feat. As you level up and feats become more plentiful, it becomes less and less worthwhile, until you reach a point where the only thing it really offers you is Flail/Staff expertise shenanigans.
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May 4, 2017 19:01
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It's strange because that's how I feel about Fighter Weapon Talent. It starts you off great, but since it never changes, it only takes about 6 levels for it to become completely eclipsed by literally anything else. Then again, I've never been in a game that didn't have Inherent Bonuses so it might be more noticeable in games where you actually feel the loss of that floating +1 if you don't have it.
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May 5, 2017 00:34
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Agent Boogeyman posted:It's strange because that's how I feel about Fighter Weapon Talent. It starts you off great, but since it never changes, it only takes about 6 levels for it to become completely eclipsed by literally anything else. Then again, I've never been in a game that didn't have Inherent Bonuses so it might be more noticeable in games where you actually feel the loss of that floating +1 if you don't have it. That isn't how (the value of) bonuses to a d20 roll work. Which is a common mistake, see pathfinder as a particularly egregious set of examples.
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May 5, 2017 00:56
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No, I get it, it's an extra +5% chance to hit that never goes away. However, I just ran the numbers and you're actually right; The average chance to hit only decreases as you gain level compared to the average target AC defense. At Level 1 it's a 55% chance to hit, and at Level 11 through 21 it's only a 50/50 split, and then becomes 45% at Level 30. Yikes. Double check my math here: Level 1: +4 STR, +1 FWT, +1 Feat vs. 15 AC = Roll 9 or Higher. Level 11: +5 STR, +1 FWT, +2 Feat, +2 Enhance, +5 Half Level vs. 25 AC = Roll 10 or Higher. Level 21: +7 STR, +1 FWT, +3 Feat, +4 Enhance, +10 Half Level vs. 35 AC = Roll 10 or Higher. Level 30: +8 STR, +1 FWT, +3 Feat, +6 Enhance, +15 Half Level vs. 44 AC = Roll 11 or Higher. Is this actually right? Am I forgetting something?
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May 5, 2017 01:42
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You're missing the proficiency bonus from a weapon, which is a +2 or +3 bonus, which drops it to 8 or 9 to hit. EDIT: The thing about FWT is, no other person gets a straight +1 to hit unconditionally. And with D&D, you're not expected to swap out weapon types, so it really is just +1 to hit. Which makes fighters really good in a fight. Arena fighter trades that for kinda sorta getting to build a frankenweapon, which isn't really worth the loss. The average person is looking at around 9 or 10 to hit, following your formula with proficiency. But the way 4e maths works, the party needs to hit a certain number of times, and monsters are built around that. With a +1, you hit 5% more often with every attack, which is more hits earlier = more enemies killed earlier = less resources used per fight = less chance of players dying. And that's not even getting into the value of hitting more often with dailies/encounters, which swings the fight even harder, since they basically count as multiple hits. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 02:22 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 01:52
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Aha! That's still kinda crappy though. Yeah, okay, so in the long run I concede that FTW is the better bargain but only on the merit that the defense math is kind of garbage.
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May 5, 2017 02:00
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Is this actually right? Am I forgetting something? Torchlighter posted:You're missing the proficiency bonus from a weapon, which is a +2 or +3 bonus, which drops it to 8 or 9 to hit. Forgetting weapon proficiency isn't a big deal since it isn't going to prevent accuracy from dropping off at high levels. 4ed is kinda frustrating because they mathed out all the curves and then intentionally broke it apart to make room for magic items and scaling ability scores (which didn't actually make up the difference). One could argue that Taclords more than make up the difference, but not all leaders make hitting trivial like they do.
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May 5, 2017 02:06
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