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More people enjoy or don't care if stealth heroes are in the game. That's why they are in the game and Blizzard keeps making them. That is why stealth in multiplayer is a good idea.
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May 1, 2017 16:17
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The problems with stealth are many, but it'd be nice if they rethought the dumb shimmer and just made the characters slightly translucent, not show up on the minimap and untargetable for regular attacks and targeted abilities instead. It's effectively the same thing at the high end level where players can spot it most of the time and it doesn't punish people with specific graphic settings or at lower tiers of play as much. It also forces all the garbage Novas and Zeratuls and Valeeras in the world to be less garbage. That way they can actually go out there and buff these guys without taking a dump on bronze and silver league play. I don't think any of the above are overpowered, especially Nova is kinda bad as we were talking about before and Zeratul only really shines in the hands of extremely competent players, but the shimmer is dumb conceptually.
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May 1, 2017 16:18
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Can we settle this shimmer thing? What are the graphic settings on which shimmer is much harder to spot? It's like an urban legend at this point.
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May 1, 2017 16:23
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bamhand posted:More people enjoy or don't care if stealth heroes are in the game. That's why they are in the game and Blizzard keeps making them. That is why stealth in multiplayer is a good idea. Clearly Blizzard understands the problem that I put forward, they explicitly stated it in the Valeera nerf patch. They decided to include stealth, and have had to tweak stealth characters in response to complaints. In my opinion it would have been easier and better to just not include it at all. It's impossible to go back in time and see if less people would be playing the game without stealth characters. It IS possible to see the amount of complaints about them and the adjustments Blizzard has made to deal with that. I don't know if you will acknowledge that it's a matter of opinion whether it's worse to include something controversial and deal with the consequences of that decision, or just avoid the controversy altogether. I think you've got your ego tied up in this. If you really want to discuss something, let's discuss WHY Blizzard decided to go the route they did. I suspect it's simply a legacy mechanic that was included because they thought people would expect it. I wouldn't have been convinced at the time that not including stealth would have lessened the player base.
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May 1, 2017 16:47
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Tons of people enjoy playing stealth heroes. Nova used to be one of the most notorious "main" heroes where people would have one hero at level 20 and everything else at 5 or less. That's why it's in the game.
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May 1, 2017 16:51
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Hot Smart ARYAN Girl posted:In my opinion it would have been easier and better to just not include it at all. It's impossible to go back in time and see if less people would be playing the game without stealth characters. It IS possible to see the amount of complaints about them and the adjustments Blizzard has made to deal with that. You could say this about literally any mechanic
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May 1, 2017 16:55
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Removing stealth from a hero brawler game with characters known explicitly for their cloak was never gonna happen.
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May 1, 2017 16:57
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quote:Developer Comments: We feel that Valeera needs a small increase in power to help her overall win rate, but are hoping to do so without adding much more burst damage or disabling effects. The changes to her Health and Basic Attack damage should give her a boost, while the changes to Talents, Ambush, and Garrote should create harder decision making for the Rogue. While we were looking at her Health Regeneration, we noticed that it was actually higher than intended (most Heroes take 480 seconds to regenerate their entire Health pool), which is why we reduced it slightly. We’ve increased the duration on Cloak of Shadows so that predicting Abilities is easier to accomplish. We want it to be a rewarding, high skill-cap ability, but with the old tuning it struggled to compete with Smoke Bomb. I'm not seeing where the devs are saying Stealth was the problem with Valeera. It's the CC and burst
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May 1, 2017 17:03
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exquisite tea posted:Removing stealth from a hero brawler game with characters known explicitly for their cloak was never gonna happen. Yes, unfortunately it's a legacy mechanic as I said. frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:You could say this about literally any mechanic Not really, because not every mechanic is so controversial. I'm saying it was in fact a possibility, and it can still be majorly tweaked in ways that a couple posters in the last couple of pages suggested, or other ways.
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May 1, 2017 17:04
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Remove the shimmer, replace it with a cardboard box.
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May 1, 2017 17:04
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Gustav posted:Can we settle this shimmer thing? What are the graphic settings on which shimmer is much harder to spot? It's like an urban legend at this point. Stealth's shimmer is implemented as a convolution of whatever backdrop the stealthy is being rendered over. That means they're harder to spot whenever they're against a low-contrast surface. Lower graphics settings generally result in lower-contrast ground textures, which makes stealth characters harder to see. But there's also the argument that lower-contrast surfaces make any sort of anomaly stand out against them easier -- and how often is a stealth character going to be standing out in the middle of a lane where there's no wall or other sort of background they can distort? Not very often, so maybe the simpler low quality textures make catching that easier. Who knows? Pro players generally don't give a poo poo because they play draft modes, and nobody drafts stealth characters in high level games.
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May 1, 2017 17:06
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Fellatio del Toro posted:Remove the shimmer, replace it with a cardboard box. Really sick of having to base my entire hero selection around a poorly telegraphed, brown cardboard box with legs under it that barely sticks out from the terrain.
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May 1, 2017 17:06
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Hot Smart ARYAN Girl posted:Not really, because not every mechanic is so controversial. You should have been around for Abuthur launch. Stealth has been around since Alpha. The only time people generally complain about it is when one hero that happens to have stealth is OP. It was Valeera this time. Zeratul and Nova are fine now.
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May 1, 2017 17:15
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The way to play around stealth characters when strong detection isn't an option is typically more passive which is boring and lame and something games generally try to avoid. Plus the actual hard counters tend to render stealth characters nearly useless because of how much they sacrifice to have it (see Sombra and Nova). Basically it's debatable whether stealth is worthwhile as a mechanic in the first place, and it definitely needs more thought when it is added than it is typically given. chumbler fucked around with this message at 17:39 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 17:32
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This is true of non stealth heroes as well. If I don't see Kerrigan in any lane and I'm soloing I'm gonna sit on my gate. Blizzard should probably just remove the concept of ganking from the game.
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May 1, 2017 17:36
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Pfft scrubs just buy wards and dust. 
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May 1, 2017 17:43
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Please tell me how Stealth is functionally more powerful than Tracer or Genji
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May 1, 2017 17:45
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:Please tell me how Stealth is functionally more powerful than Tracer or Genji I don't have a horse in this race but this isn't the main thrust of their argument in the last couple pages, and demanding an answer to a question that is irrelevant to their point isn't really making this incredibly dumb argument any closer to going away. On a different note, do we have any good guesses on when D.VA's due?
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May 1, 2017 17:54
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You don't even need map awareness or shimmervision for dealing with stealth. Just ask yourself occasionally "If I were an enemy flanker, would it be a good idea to attack my hero right now?" If 'Yes', then move nearer your team and be on guard. Maybe heal up and stop walking around with 60% health. If 'No' then you're fine and if they try to attack you anyway they get blown up. Anticipation solves that whole problem. I guess it takes a bit of experience to develop that anticipation, but after a while you do pick up a sixth sense of "I'm about to be ambushed" or "They're doing boss" or something. Honestly, long-range blasters like Chromie and Li-Ming are much more of a problem for bad players. Not only can't you see them coming, they're too far away to retaliate against! But people complain way more about the Valeera that had to duck and weave through three different AOEs only to chunk your health bar and then try to dash away.
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May 1, 2017 17:54
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2 SPOOKY posted:On a different note, do we have any good guesses on when D.VA's due? May 4th, probably.
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May 1, 2017 17:55
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ITT assassin mains don't want to be careful about positioning. Flankers and gankers exist, and can be dealt with. Don't overextend. That means don't sit there solo laning as Valla, auto attacking towers with no enemies on your minimap. While we're at it, watch the minimap. You should be looking at it at least once every six seconds, more often if you're TLV or Abathur or something. If you find yourself not having an idea of where the enemy team is, get somewhere safe immediately, especially if nobody has vision on Valeera or Zeratul. Stick with your team once you hit 10. If your team isn't playing as a team, you're not losing because you didn't notice a shimmer. Teamwork is a rare thing in QM, especially right now with new people flooding in and jumping into 1v3 as ragnaros while ignoring danger pings and futile pleading with them to move as a group. Use QM to learn new heroes and their weaknesses (like being squishy and easily murdered by a burst damage assassin jumping out of stealth), and learn how to deal with it instead of bitching on the internet about how stealth should just be removed from the game. It's not going anywhere, it's a part of the game, it's not unbeatable, deal with it.
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May 1, 2017 17:57
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Li Ming is hella fun and I love erasing enemies from the map at off-the-screen range.
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May 1, 2017 17:56
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I don't mind stealth. I used to hate illidan because of his playstyle and the kind of people who play him, but then i discovered how to gently caress him up with johanna. Stealth is no different, just something to be aware of in the game.
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May 1, 2017 17:58
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Ahahah stealth drones doesn't even do poo poo against Valeera what a piece of gently caress mechanic unreveiable is
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May 1, 2017 17:59
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It only lasts what? A second? It's a bit annoying but it's not awful. She would need major buffs if she didn't have the ability, like cloak of shadows baseline or something.
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May 1, 2017 18:04
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If you're having trouble with stealth, just play Cho'gall.
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May 1, 2017 18:07
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Li ming's Q is great for revealing stealth because it's like a shotgun.
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May 1, 2017 18:07
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This conversation is making me want to go buy Valeera because I already opened a rad demon hunter skin for her
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May 1, 2017 18:09
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But I don't like to play *arbitrary number of heroes who are all really good against stealth assassins*, therefore stealth heroes should be removed from the game.
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May 1, 2017 18:08
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2 SPOOKY posted:I don't have a horse in this race but this isn't the main thrust of their argument in the last couple pages, and demanding an answer to a question that is irrelevant to their point isn't really making this incredibly dumb argument any closer to going away. Well, at least someone gets it. I'm not going to try to talk about perception of fairness and avoiding controversy anymore when the only response is irrelevant false equivalencies and "u mad bros" hawowanlawow fucked around with this message at 18:12 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 18:10
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Shibawanko posted:Li ming's Q is great for revealing stealth because it's like a shotgun. So is Disintegrate, sweep that poo poo around like a radar 
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May 1, 2017 18:12
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Hot Smart ARYAN Girl posted:Well, at least someone gets it. I get it, it's just a nonsense argument. TONS of heroes are hated and "make QM annoying." There is nothing special about stealth heroes that makes them "more annoying." They are functionally identical to any ganker that is playing well. quote:I'm not going to try to talk about perception of fairness and avoiding controversy when the only response is irrelevant false equivalencies and "u mad bros" EVERYTHING is "unfair" to someone. Why isn't the character select screen just Raynor? That would be the MOST fair.
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May 1, 2017 18:12
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:I get it, it's just a nonsense argument. TONS of heroes are hated and "make QM annoying." There is nothing special about stealth heroes that makes them "more annoying." They are functionally identical to any ganker that is playing well. Yes I know, but they are obviously perceived that way by people trying to pick up the game, and that is a problem. There, I'm done, y'all can go back to whatever.
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May 1, 2017 18:14
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Everyone who disagrees with my opinion is just a "u mad" memer.
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May 1, 2017 18:15
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Hot Smart ARYAN Girl posted:Yes I know, but they are obviously perceived that way by people trying to pick up the game, and that is a problem. There, I'm done, y'all can go back to whatever. For whatever it's worth, I get you. I -like- stealth heroes and I still understand that whether or not they actually are disproportionately strong, they make things feel sour for many players. I personally feel like a lot of multiplayer games would be better without stealth, but that's a hard sacred cow to slaughter.
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May 1, 2017 18:18
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If we want to talk about new player perception, I see a ton of bitching about Morales in QM. That beam that is just constantly healing looks obnoxious to newbies.
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May 1, 2017 18:22
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Pointing out stealth has a larger than average number of terrible Blizzard forums posters frothing at the mouth doesn't sound particularly controversial. Blizzard balances around angry mobs on the forums in their other games all the time, I can only assume HotS is the same.
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May 1, 2017 18:25
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bamhand posted:But I don't like to play *arbitrary number of heroes who are all really good against stealth assassins*, therefore stealth heroes should be removed from the game. Sorry if I wanna level up people that aren't tanks/bruisers once in a while edit: frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:If we want to talk about new player perception, I see a ton of bitching about Morales in QM. That beam that is just constantly healing looks obnoxious to newbies. To be fair they are re-working Morales next, no idea if they are changing how the beam works or not though.
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May 1, 2017 18:25
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Sorry if I wanna level up people that aren't tanks/bruisers once in a while There are plenty of heroes that aren't tanks or bruisers that are fine against Valeera. You still get XP even if you lose. You can play ranked where stealth heroes are rare. There are so many options available. People who complain sound like they want to play the squishiest heroes in the game every single match and they don't want to ever worry about things like positioning or map awareness or being attacked.
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May 1, 2017 18:37
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Orange Crush Rush posted:To be fair they are re-working Morales next, no idea if they are changing how the beam works or not though. Wait what they are? She's my very favorite hero in the game. 
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May 1, 2017 18:37
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