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Yaws posted:Thank you. I think we can put a cap on this argument now. Wait, there's one last point of view. Should not the last word belong to George Lucas? https://notallowedto.com/c-3po-was-based-on-george-lucass-gay-friend/ posted:“At first, C-3PO was not intended to be a robot but a Morphlak, a humanoid species that were only of male gender, but the studio wasn’t too open about the idea of a gay character, let alone a whole planet sustaining a gay species” he remembers. “You have to remember it was the 70′s, people were far more uncomfortable about the topic of LGBT rights at the time. It made the producers, lets just say, pretty uneasy, so we eventually changed his character to an asexual robot” he said. It turns out that droids are... gay people.
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May 3, 2017 05:31
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Imagine spending decades of your life watching & writing about Star Wars, but not yet figuring out who Darth Vader is. Or that R2D2 can talk.
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May 3, 2017 05:33
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Hodgepodge posted:Wait, there's one last point of view. Should not the last word belong to George Lucas? It sounds like threepio is an asexual robot
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May 3, 2017 05:31
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"Robot" means "servant."
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May 3, 2017 05:32
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Yaws posted:It sounds like threepio is an asexual robot quote:“We told him about the character’s homosexual inclinations but not to make it too visibly “open”, due to the producers reticence. He surprised us by taking a gay British accent which we believed was just pure genius, that’s how the character took place and is frankly one of the most popular characters of the series with his companion R2-D2, as everybody knows” he acknowledged. C3P0 and R2D2 are characterized as gay robots in love. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:35 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 05:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The sad old man is Anakin Skywalker (who is played by Sebastian Shaw), not Darth Vader (who is played by James Earl Jones and David Prowse). This is a fiction invented by Obi Wan to get around the fact that he helped raised a genocidal maniac. Also, a way to retcon a conversation depicted in iconic science fiction film Star Wars (1977).
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May 3, 2017 05:33
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Hodgepodge posted:C3P0 and R2D2 are characterized as gay robots in love. Sure, they can have fake love for one another. There's nothing wrong with that.
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May 3, 2017 05:35
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I hope Daisy Ridley has a padawan rat-tail in 8.
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May 3, 2017 05:38
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porfiria posted:This is a fiction invented by Obi Wan to get around the fact that he helped raised a genocidal maniac. Also, a way to retcon a conversation depicted in iconic science fiction film Star Wars (1977). Anakin, whether as himself or in the persona of Darth Vader, never committed genocide, a crime distinct from mass murder. Though I would characterize his behavior during his most violent episodes as manic.
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May 3, 2017 05:41
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Yaws posted:Sure, they can have fake love for one another. There's nothing wrong with that. Fake news? Meanwhile, let's see what the Adderall thread over in TCC has to say about our brains being programmable: A Spherical Sponge posted:I started taking this drug intuniv (extended release guanfacine) about a week and a half ago and it's working really well! I'm not sure if this is the place I would make general adhd pharmacology related posts or whether this thread is just for stimulants, but it can't hurt to let you guys know about it, right?
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May 3, 2017 05:40
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porfiria posted:This is a fiction invented by Obi Wan to get around the fact that he helped raised a genocidal maniac. Also, a way to retcon a conversation depicted in iconic science fiction film Star Wars (1977). Darth Vader does not commit genocide in any of the films, and even openly states that he thinks genocide is lame. He's also not a maniac. Words mean things.
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May 3, 2017 05:43
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Bongo Bill posted:Anakin, whether as himself or in the persona of Darth Vader, never committed genocide, a crime distinct from mass murder. Though I would characterize his behavior during his most violent episodes as manic. He kills every member of an indigenous tribe, then goes on to hunt down and kill every member of a religious order. I mean, he doesn't commit genocide insofar as using the singular implies he only did it once. He commits genocide multiple times on screen.
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May 3, 2017 05:45
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Hodgepodge posted:He kills every member of an indigenous tribe, then goes on to hunt down an kill every member of a religious order. He kills a settlement of people that he's racist against, but that's not the same thing as genocide. The Jedi, meanwhile, are an organization, not a people, which means exterminating them all also does not meet the definition. Genocide would be what happens on Alderaan, just as an example.
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May 3, 2017 05:46
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Also while we're at it, he was entirely complicit with thebgenocide of the peoples of Aldeeraan. Being genocidal is a core character trait of Anakin and Vader. Sorry SMG, but you're a Star-Holocaust denier 
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May 3, 2017 05:48
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He was opposed to the Death Star concept, but he did respect the chain of command when Tarkin gave the order to fire.
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May 3, 2017 05:49
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Hodgepodge posted:He kills every member of an indigenous tribe, then goes on to hunt down and kill every member of a religious order. That is Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is a specific character, not a term for a bad person.
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May 3, 2017 05:53
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Bongo Bill posted:He kills a settlement of people that he's racist against, but that's not the same thing as genocide. The Jedi, meanwhile, are an organization, not a people, which means exterminating them all also does not meet the definition. Killing every member of an indigenous settlement is an act of genocide. To deny that is to whitewash countless acts of real world genocide. The Jedi are a religious order; extermination of a religion is genocide. It would be for the best if you understand the meaning of the word genocide before you use it.
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May 3, 2017 05:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Darth Vader does not commit genocide in any of the films, and even openly states that he thinks genocide is lame. Yeah so instead of responding to the point you decide to get all nitpicky and stupid. I had a feeling when I was writing my previous post some rear end in a top hat was going to point out that Vader never technically commits genocide and, in addition, never once on screen is a psychiatrist seen diagnose him with any sort of manic disorder whatsoever. "Also, I am not, nor have I ever been, that part of the human anatomy." Obviously whether or not Vader is genocidal is not even close to nut of the argument--how about child killer? "Oh no that was Anakin." God fine. Okay, how about a guy it would be psychologically easier for Obi to imagine as two entirely separate and distinct personas? Can we actually have a conversation now?
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May 3, 2017 05:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That is Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is a specific character, not a term for a bad person. See my edit. However, even confined to the later example, he continues his genocide of the Jedi once he is Darth Vader. At the climax of the trilogy, he is redeemed when he chooses not to complete it at the last moment. Note the Emperor's words before he Force Lightnings Luke: "So be it, Jedi, " prompted by Luke's declaration that he is a Jedi.
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May 3, 2017 05:57
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The Jedi are also very much Space Jewish. Conversion is in some cases an acceptable alternative to murder.
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May 3, 2017 05:58
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Hodgepodge posted:Killing every member of an indigenous settlement is an act of genocide. To deny that is to whitewash countless acts of real world genocide. Genocide is an attempt to exterminate an entire people. Killing an entire village is a different war crime. Killing the ordained authorities of a religious organization is different from killing the adherents of that religion. In Rogue One, for instance, we see that even though there are no Jedi left, there are still people kicking around who worship the Force, and they're not even fugitives or anything. For that matter, while I'm at it, blowing up the droid control ship wasn't genocide either, as that was done to a hostile army during battle.
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May 3, 2017 05:58
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Bongo Bill posted:Genocide is an attempt to exterminate an entire people. Killing an entire village is a different war crime. Since this is a space civilization we're talking about, Alderaan probably wasn't genocide either it was just blowing up Geneva or whatever.
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May 3, 2017 06:05
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Bongo Bill posted:Genocide is an attempt to exterminate an entire people. Killing an entire village is a different war crime. A village is in many cases an entire people. Likewise, a pogrom is a genocidal act even if those who carry it out do not believe they are killing every Jew on Earth. Much of the genocide of native peoples in North America and elsewhere was carried out one village at a time. The Trail of Tears was a genocidal act despite being intended to relocate, rather than annihilate; forced relocation is an act of genocide. Worshipping the Force is not the same thing as being a Jedi. Christians killing Jewish people are not absolved because they are cool with worshipping God. The Sith and Jedi hate each other for worshipping the Force in the wrong way. You really, really need to learn more about what genocide is; I don't think you understand the acts you are casually excusing in the course of a pedantic argument over Star Wars.
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May 3, 2017 06:06
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porfiria posted:Yeah so instead of responding to the point you decide to get all nitpicky and stupid. "A guy it would be psychologically easier for Obi to imagine as two entirely separate and distinct personas" is a tortured phrase that you are deploying to pave over nuance. In the film Episode III, Anakin dies - is entirely stripped of his symbolic identity - and is reborn as the undead character called Vader, who is explicitly not mentally ill. Obiwan is correct that Anakin and Vader are different. His error is in seeing the genocidal Anakin as 'the good one.' Anakin is merely bad, whereas Vader is Evil. These are vital distinctions, which is why they are emphasized by giving Vader a black mask and a different voice. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 06:17 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 06:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"A guy it would be psychologically easier for Obi to imagine as two entirely separate and distinct personas" is a tortured phrase that you are deploying to pave over nuance. Obi-Wan's use of the Anakin/Vader distinction shows his own participation in the mindset which leads Anakin to genocide: he can't imagine a Jedi committing genocide, but of course a Sith would. Sith aren't people anymore.
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May 3, 2017 06:14
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Prolonged Priapism posted:My dude, neither do you! "You" are a flesh robot made completely of tiny autonomous, unthinking, unfeeling cells. Your reactions to stimuli are patterned - nobody (especially not you yourself) taught you to wince or flinch or laugh or cry. Your genetic programming encodes these basic responses. You have no choice about them. And if the programming was different, your reactions would be different. The gestalt being, the observer, - the "you" that lives behind your eyes - arises somehow from the network of very complexly connected but completely deterministic cells with no personhood whatsoever. The Human genome and the consciousness that arise from it are not fully understood or fully programmable. Droids are fully designed and programmed down to the last 1 and 0. We also need to understand that this nature makes every droid model/OS different from others in ways that any two humans are not. The Battle-Droids are simple incompetent kill-bots, which is worlds apart morally and ethically from R2D2 or K2SO, it's why we feel sympathy for the latter two but not the former. (And K2S0 hasn't been lobotomized or "robbed of his free will", they simply "killed" an Imperial droid and inserted a completely different Rebel droid into the chasis.) Finally I think a lot of these stupid Droid slavery debates arise from people not being able to separate meta-narrative knowledge and rules from other stories. We know Data from Star Trek and the T800 from T2 deserve the rights/moral judgments of a person because the rules of their fictional universes are set-up, work as, and are explained that way. Likewise Star Wars sets up it's robots as working under different rules. We can't judge Star Wars robots under the rules of another fictions robots and vice-versa. It's like complaining that Vampires from one story don't have the same powers and weaknesses as another story's Vampires. As a fictional entity, you can't apply the rules they operate under in one story to how they operate in another. However I am willing to admit, as I have said before, that as Star Wars has left the sole-custody of Lucas and become more of a "Shared Universe" like comic books are, that different contributing authors might write Droids as operating under different rules, and we may see later movies use these new rules. Much how we seem to be seeing the NuCanon move away from the Lucas "Jedi=Balance=The Force VS Sith=Imbalance=The Dark Side/Corrupted Force" into a new "Jedi=Light VS Sith=Dark therefore the truth must be in the middle" philosophy.
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May 3, 2017 06:14
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Yaws posted:Comedic relief? In the PT it gives our heroes the opportunity to use their cool laser swords on countless enemies and the audience doesn't give it a second thought. No one watched Obi-Wan cut those droids in half and thought to themselves "man, these movies are gory!" Because that would be stupid. Because they're not people. Those droids were manufactured to kill. That's all they "know". Do you consider the clones people? They too, were manufactured to kill. It is all they will live for.
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May 3, 2017 06:15
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If only the Death Star hit this thread instead of Alderaan
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May 3, 2017 06:15
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Reposting this video because it's relevant to this discussion and it owns. https://youtu.be/hN74bOubUug
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May 3, 2017 06:19
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Hodgepodge posted:Obi-Wan's use of the Anakin/Vader distinction shows his own participation in the mindset which leads Anakin to genocide: he can't imagine a Jedi committing genocide, but of course a Sith would. Sith aren't people anymore. Well, yes - that is how Obiwan (ab)uses the names. The truth is another matter, however.
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May 3, 2017 06:19
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Hodgepodge posted:A village is in many cases an entire people. Likewise, a pogrom is a genocidal act even if those who carry it out do not believe they are killing every Jew on Earth. Much of the genocide of native peoples in North America and elsewhere was carried out one village at a time. The Trail of Tears was a genocidal act despite being intended to relocate, rather than annihilate; forced relocation is an act of genocide. I'm not trying to excuse them and I apologize for whatever I did to give the impression that I don't think that murdering thousands of innocents is bad. I'm only attempting to classify it specifically. Here, I'll try to make your point for you. Anakin, a native of Tatooine, knows perfectly well that one village of Tuskens is nowhere near the entire population. On the other hand, the Tuskens are, just as you say, coded Native American. While, at that point, he was an offworlder with no particular stake in the colonial strife between human frontier farmers and Tuskens, murdering an entire village in retaliation for a kidnapping and murder could indeed be taken as a part of a broader genocidal pattern. I certainly don't think his stepfather was very torn up about the end result. Still, I don't believe that is what motivated him. The Jedi are a specific organized group. They're not a people. There are no lay Jedi, nor civilian Jedi. A follower of their exact doctrine who wasn't also a psychic mutant (like Chirrut Imwe) would A) not be a Jedi, and B) be the target of a genocide as I understand the term to mean. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 06:23 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 06:20
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galagazombie posted:The Human genome and the consciousness that arise from it are not fully understood or fully programmable. Droids are fully designed and programmed down to the last 1 and 0. We also need to understand that this nature makes every droid model/OS different from others in ways that any two humans are not. The Battle-Droids are simple incompetent kill-bots, which is worlds apart morally and ethically from R2D2 or K2SO, it's why we feel sympathy for the latter two but not the former. We must only understand ourselves better in order to deny ourselves personhood? My friend, human societies have never acknowledged that limitation. The rest of your post ignores the fact that droids are depicted as people in Star Wars. Similar beings are depicted as people elsewhere because there are not yet real droids, science fiction uses metaphors such as droids and aliens to talk about real phenomenon such as racial minorities and slave labor. That is why the "droids are not people" arguments recreate anti-abolitionist rhetoric: they are simply defending fictional slavery on the basis of its accurate depiction of slavery's dehumanizing effects.
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May 3, 2017 06:23
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galagazombie posted:The Human genome and the consciousness that arise from it are not fully understood or fully programmable. Droids are fully designed and programmed down to the last 1 and 0. The Human genome is not fully understood now, but it theoretically could. If neurological science progresses that far are you prepared to concede that humans are not people? You also assume that because droids are designed that their designers fully understand their consciousness. There is nothing in the films to suggest that. galagazombie posted:We know Data from Star Trek and the T800 from T2 deserve the rights/moral judgments of a person because the rules of their fictional universes are set-up, work as, and are explained that way. Likewise Star Wars sets up it's robots as working under different rules. Within the fiction of Star Wars, the droids are deserving of all the rights and dignities of people, being that they are people.
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May 3, 2017 06:26
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Bongo Bill posted:A follower of their exact doctrine who wasn't also a psychic mutant (like Chirrut Imwe) would A) not be a Jedi, and B) be the target of a genocide as I understand the term to mean. Chirrut totally had the Force, it was part of his whole blind monk thing and the all the exploits and premonitions he had, like when he knew Jyn had the pendant on Jedha.
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May 3, 2017 06:25
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galagazombie posted:Chirrut totally had the Force, it was part of his whole blind monk thing and the all the exploits and premonitions he had, like when he knew Jyn had the pendant on Jedha. 'S a good point. So it's not even a matter of believing and meeting the relevant genetic criteria; you also have to have been specifically recruited. The recruitment wasn't always voluntary, of course, which is known to be extremely hosed up.
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May 3, 2017 06:26
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galagazombie posted:The Human genome and the consciousness that arise from it are not fully understood or fully programmable. Droids are fully designed and programmed down to the last 1 and 0. We also need to understand that this nature makes every droid model/OS different from others in ways that any two humans are not. The Battle-Droids are simple incompetent kill-bots, which is worlds apart morally and ethically from R2D2 or K2SO, it's why we feel sympathy for the latter two but not the former. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O0-dCLFadQ You're the one bringing metaknowledge to the table in over-relying on your preconceptions, based on the obvious truths of real world robotics and ai research, about this fantasy space land of long ago and far far away. We see droids being assembled, sure, but never designed; fact of the matter is from a viewer's standpoint I don't think you can meaningfully point to one category of sapience as any less 'evolved' than the other within the setting. I mean a good third of AotC, and some of its most inspired imagery, is spent on the explicit parallel of organic and artificial armies being produced through essentially identical industrial processes. C-3PO's birth and infancy are reminiscent of Frankenstein more than anything else. HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 06:42 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 06:30
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Bongo Bill posted:I'm not trying to excuse them and I apologize for whatever I did to give the impression that I don't think that murdering thousands of innocents is bad. I'm only attempting to classify it specifically. We actually have no idea if that village is a whole culture or not, but we do know that the rape of a white woman would serve as the motive for similar acts against indigenous people in real world history, which are counted as genocidal regardless of whether a whole culture is extinguished. Likewise, you are attempting to redefine a religious order in a way which makes their genocide acceptable. None of the factors you describe have the slightest bearing on what is or is not genocide. All of this is irrelevant, because you are defending an imaginary, ignorant definition of genocide which excludes countless actual acts of genocide and I am begging you to stop and acknowledge that you do not have a clue what genocide is and go learn something instead of doubling down over and over again.
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May 3, 2017 06:32
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Hodgepodge posted:We actually have no idea if that village is a whole culture or not, but we do know that the rape of a white woman would serve as the motive for similar acts against indigenous people in real world history, which are counted as genocidal regardless of whether a whole culture is extinguished. I'm not trying to make it acceptable. Please understand this. We don't have a word for a crime that is as bad as genocide, but not directed by the perpetrator at a people. If we had such a word, I'd be calling it that instead. "Mass murder" comes close. The character is certainly a mass murderer. Edit: I understand. The word "genocide" encompasses atrocities less specific than I thought it did. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 06:41 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 06:38
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Bongo Bill posted:I'm not trying to make it acceptable. Please understand this. We don't have a word for a crime that is as bad as genocide, but not directed by the perpetrator at a people. If we had such a word, I'd be calling it that instead. The problem is that your definition of genocide does not match how it is applied in the real world; to apply it would exclude actual acts of genocide, including those you are attempting to exclude here. I was hoping that you might have the capacity to go beyond the preconception of your own authority on the matter rather than defend your claim to definitive knowledge; since I have been disappointed, here is a definition of genocide: The United Nations posted:Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide) For the record, I don't consider you guilty of anything but a routine case of Dunning-Kruger. If we were arguing about something else, though, the same line of thinking would have you defending real world genocide on the basis of ignorance.
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May 3, 2017 06:45
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I edited my post while you were writing yours, in which I admit you were right. Still don't appreciate being accused of defending it, however called, but I was in error.
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May 3, 2017 06:48
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