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headhunter's gonna be better on a bow user vs a crossbow user, it'll take a lot of turns to get your headhunter on with a crossbow.
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May 1, 2017 22:34
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I feel like the best use of headhunter / jester builds is with 1 h axe, for the bonus damage on head hits.
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May 1, 2017 23:17
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everyone is running around with way more legendary equipment and direwolf armor poo poo than myself *tears*
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May 1, 2017 23:35
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Ahhh ok. For some reason I don't remember seeing that much detail on the tooltip, I swear I looked for it... Ah well. The other big thing is that bow mastery gives +1 range. This might not seem like much. But when you've got multiple necromancers and/or enemy archers in a battle with >16 enemies, it's a huge boon. Sometimes there's too many enemies to send out a flanker, and then you'll really appreciate the extra range.* Also, you can get two attacks per turn with bows, so they're better Overwhelm debuffers. On the other hand, a Crippling Strikes + Fearsome xbow bro is extremely strong. But I wouldn't get any if there's a chance of an Undead crisis. I don't know the exact HP for the ancient dead, but it's still too much for pierce resistance + ignore moral + ignore injuries. If there were T2 throwing weapons, it would be more understandable. But even the throwing mastery only reaches warbow DPS. And warbows have a massive range advantage. Really, they should replace the +%EXP in the training hall with respec perks or just straight up buying levels. Even if it costs more on average for exp, new bros in the late game have a disappointing survival rate. * and this is also why ancient priests suck. golden bubble fucked around with this message at 03:07 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 02:59
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Just had a vicious battle with a 'plethora of wolfriders' (17 of em) to my 12 Brothers. Outfitted with spears but many having injuries from a previous clash with the vicious greenies on wolves, we fought valiantly and held the line. My Sergeant himself rotated to save a fellow Brother and it cost him his life; he was felled by the lone Wolfrider that stayed after his comrades were slain or fled. This was the best outcome I'd had in the 3+ tries of this encounter the past two days. Rest Well, Tobjoern, The Knightslayer.
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May 2, 2017 05:02
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Anyone tried a heavily armored/shielded dagger bro with dagger mastery and overwhelm? Seems like that could be pretty rad with the 3 attacks mastery grants. Also, does asking for more money for contracts lessen the relationship boost you get from doing missions? Seems like I've been doing missions for this one town forever and they are still just "open". Wondering if always asking for money money is causing this. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 05:49 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 05:44
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Check attack tooltips for bonuses to hit. Crossbows come with +15% chance. This is a T2 bow vs a T1 Xbow. In general, crossbows have better hit chance and better armor penetration per shot, but only one shot per round and shorter range. You should compare the Full Shot tot he Crossbow shot. Bows also get a bonus to hit if you're only shooting once per round, and are actually more accurate at ranges of >=5 tiles. Bow: +10% chance to hit, -2% to hit per tile distance Crossbows: +15% chance to hit -3% chance to hit per tile distance (Spiked Impaler: +10% chance to hit, -3% chance to hit per tile distance) The accuracy bonus difference of crossbows is quite minimal, and I never quite understood why people say they are better for unskilled archers. Unzip and Attack posted:Anyone tried a heavily armored/shielded dagger bro with dagger mastery and overwhelm? Seems like that could be pretty rad with the 3 attacks mastery grants. You need Adrenaline to proc the overwhelm in that situation, and that's gonna murder your fatigue. Iron lungs and recover would be required to make it work, really.
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May 2, 2017 05:47
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Unzip and Attack posted:Anyone tried a heavily armored/shielded dagger bro with dagger mastery and overwhelm? Seems like that could be pretty rad with the 3 attacks mastery grants. Yes, asking for more money lessens the relationship boost. Unless you're really scrimping or getting paid for each head you collect it's not really worth it to ask for extra money since having good relations with a settlement will give you better prices for buying and selling stuff there.
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May 2, 2017 06:35
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GlyphGryph posted:You should compare the Full Shot tot he Crossbow shot. Bows also get a bonus to hit if you're only shooting once per round, and are actually more accurate at ranges of >=5 tiles. Good point about the bow +chance for single shot, but I still think the crossbow outperforms if you are planning on shooting only once per round. Said another way, if you need the +to hit bonus from bow singleshotting, you should probably just go crossbow instead (imho). Especially since there are some enemies where the crossbow is superior due to armor pen, you just want bows *most* of the time.
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May 2, 2017 06:51
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Jack2142 posted:everyone is running around with way more legendary equipment and direwolf armor poo poo than myself *tears* Me too.  We should form our own thread, give everyone in it daggers and shank this thread for it's equipment.
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May 2, 2017 10:40
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Unzip and Attack posted:Anyone tried a heavily armored/shielded dagger bro with dagger mastery and overwhelm? Seems like that could be pretty rad with the 3 attacks mastery grants. I tried making two guys like this in my current company. Ended up firing one, because they're both kind of meh. Being able to strike directly at an enemy's health pool is great, but they miss a lot, even at higher levels. They never kill a guy in one turn, and then everyone else who attacks the same enemy still has to contend with his armor (maybe the solution here is to give everyone daggers). I'd rather have another guy with a greatsword or a 2H hammer, to be honest. Easier to buy the armor I want rather than trying to swipe it off enemies.
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May 2, 2017 11:13
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Yeah, to be completely honest, if i'm after armour, i'm going to give everyone a flail and go for headshots only. Helmets are really cheap, so i'll just buy them.
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May 2, 2017 16:04
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GlyphGryph posted:I never quite understood why people say they are better for unskilled archers.
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May 2, 2017 16:10
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Coolguye posted:that 5-8% effective accuracy rating is better put into perspective as 2-3 levels for unskilled archers. What? Hieronymous Alloy posted:Good point about the bow +chance for single shot, but I still think the crossbow outperforms if you are planning on shooting only once per round. Said another way, if you need the +to hit bonus from bow singleshotting, you should probably just go crossbow instead (imho). Crossbows are definitely worth using, but them having better accuracy isn't really one of the reasons. Of course, most of the situations where I'd want the +accuracy are situations that would be out of range for a crossbow, so... I actually give my low accuracy archers bows so I can shoot twice per turn and ignore the chance to hit and hopefully gain some 'random' hits. Then they get overwhelm and this strategy gets even better. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:17 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 16:11
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I mean, it comes down to long term (no, they're not that much better) and immediate help. They immediately make a guy slightly better and i'm always going to give a crossbow to my bannerman, because he can fire, swap weapons and stab someone (with quick hands) on the same turn. I'm going to give a bow to everyone else, because firing twice at a slightly lower chance to hit actually increases your chance of getting a hit at some point. The Xcom devs found this out when Rapid Fire was the optimal solution no matter what your hit chance was.
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May 2, 2017 16:17
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Not saying flails aren't good or that daggers are the be all, but it is nice to just bypass the armor all together and go right for the HP pool. This does work best with a team of 2-3 dagger dudes and whether or not that makes for an efficient use of manpower is definitely not a certainty. I haven't used the high end 1 hand maces, hammers, or axes either so that may change my mind when I get there. Also it looks like your bro's stat rolls are fixed forever when the bro is create/generated.. I did some experimenting and there doesn't seem to be a way to change the progression- he's always going to get the same rolls no matter what you do. That realization kinda bummed me out. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 16:19 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 16:17
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dogstile posted:They immediately make a guy slightly better and i'm always going to give a crossbow to my bannerman, because he can fire, swap weapons and stab someone (with quick hands) on the same turn. Yeah, my point is just the shape of that better isn't generally "higher accuracy".
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May 2, 2017 16:18
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GlyphGryph posted:Yeah, my point is just the shape of that better isn't generally "higher accuracy". To be fair, if you could do that with bow's he'd still get the crossbow, because he's only firing once and the extra % is better than none. The second you can fire twice, the extra % to hit is meaningless.
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May 2, 2017 16:22
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The reason to use a crossbow is because a Crossbow Master has 70% armor ignoring damage and can potentially do Bad Things to dudes on a headshot even if they're armored.
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May 2, 2017 16:24
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dogstile posted:To be fair, if you could do that with bow's he'd still get the crossbow, because he's only firing once and the extra % is better than none. The second you can fire twice, the extra % to hit is meaningless. Mathematically I'm not sure that's true. It's probably possible to calculate the exact value of each additional attack vs the dps value of additional to-hit. The real issue is that with berserlk a Bowman can have three attacks per round.
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May 2, 2017 17:00
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dogstile posted:To be fair, if you could do that with bow's he'd still get the crossbow, because he's only firing once and the extra % is better than none. The second you can fire twice, the extra % to hit is meaningless. But you're potentially giving up a shot at all on the first turn of combat, and then getting an accuracy penalty vs. bows on the second. It's only an extra % to hit after the lines have closed, and at that point most lovely bowmen will be switching to polearms anyway (which if you have quick hands and never had to move means you might get back that one attack)
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May 2, 2017 17:06
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GlyphGryph posted:What? GlyphGryph posted:I actually give my low accuracy archers bows so I can shoot twice per turn and ignore the chance to hit and hopefully gain some 'random' hits. Then they get overwhelm and this strategy gets even better. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Mathematically I'm not sure that's true. It's probably possible to calculate the exact value of each additional attack vs the dps value of additional to-hit. The real issue is that with berserlk a Bowman can have three attacks per round.
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May 2, 2017 17:25
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My latest game was all dagger duelists. 11 lv 11 fearsome dagger duelists. I almost feel bad for those bandits until one of them gets a lucky loving pike past my nimble dodge tanks and gives me a 500g injury to take care of.
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May 2, 2017 17:32
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There's a couple of things being neglected here, the biggest of which is fatigue. Two quick shots generate more fatigue than one aimed one. Beyond that against two of the three end game threats the bow is less useful due to armor, mainly the noble house was but also orcs (specifically warriors). High skill bows can definitely demoralize thinner armored groups but I've had a single crossbow user get an orc warrior to shaken and crippled by the time he reached my line, something a bow would have almost no chance of doing. Like most everything else in this game there is no one right answer.
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May 2, 2017 17:36
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dylguy90 posted:My latest game was all dagger duelists. 11 lv 11 fearsome dagger duelists. I almost feel bad for those bandits until one of them gets a lucky loving pike past my nimble dodge tanks and gives me a 500g injury to take care of. Why duelists? Did you forgo the armor-ignoring dagger attack? Duelist only lets you ignore more armor, right? That doesn't seem to be useful if you're ignoring all of it anyway.
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May 2, 2017 17:39
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Locke Dunnegan posted:Why duelists? Did you forgo the armor-ignoring dagger attack? Duelist only lets you ignore more armor, right? That doesn't seem to be useful if you're ignoring all of it anyway. puncture builds up 15 fatigue even with dagger mastery and you can pull off 3 attacks in one round. 45 fatigue a round is not sustainable and puncture really only makes sense when used as a finishing move. consequently, duelist is nigh required for high end dagger use as it over doubles the armor piercing quality of daggers (which is 20% by default) Coolguye fucked around with this message at 17:52 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 17:49
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Three dagger attacks per bro per round, 45% armor ignore, each one triggers morale and has a large chance of wounding, zero net fatigue gain + dodge + nimble.
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May 2, 2017 19:17
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If you got a light nimble dude each attack also overwhelms! So I think I am gonna try a new gimmick team - 100% ranged bros. Bows in back and crossbows/throwing weapons in front with melee equipment in their bag (depending on whether i am fighting undead) I expect it will be very expensive hahah. So everyone will have daggers as their backup melee weapons to try and steal from the survivors who make it into range.
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May 2, 2017 21:04
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out of curiosity, yall that run light armor builds routinely, what's your preferred armor for these builds? let's exclude especially hard-to-get armors like dire wolf mail for the purposes of this question. i've been using mail shirts but i've never used them heavily so i'm interested in what other people are using
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May 2, 2017 21:21
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oh man, when did they make it so strongholds counted towards the head count in patrol missions? makes doing those a lot more convenient.
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May 3, 2017 02:06
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Did anyone else get a bug where the exe displays a white screen and CTDs at launch? The steam forums weren't terrible helpful, so I emailed OverHype.
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May 3, 2017 02:44
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Roobanguy posted:oh man, when did they make it so strongholds counted towards the head count in patrol missions? Yeah for me the patrol mission text just reads "go into the countryside and clear out a lair or two"
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May 3, 2017 03:56
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Wafflecopper posted:Yeah for me the patrol mission text just reads "go into the countryside and clear out a lair or two" to be fair i bet that does more good than other options.
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May 3, 2017 04:29
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Let me tell you the story of Arnulf the Deserter that was lucky enough to be Strong and Quick, elevating him to the very peak of dodge tanking, at a 98% Nimble chance with a goblin shield equipped. He was blessed with stars in Melee Skill, Melee Defense and Initiative, too. He was a beautiful bro. Then came the day I was raiding goblin lairs to clear that ambition. Deep in goblin territory, I assaulted a lair with unknown garrison just to run into:  So that's 11 Fallen Heroes and a Necromancer instead of the expected goblins right there, and only one of my archers has any chance of hitting the Necromancer. But, Fallen Heroes and not one Geist to be seen. For any dodge tank/dagger bro, that's living the dream. Arnulf dodged one single attack during this fight. An attack from one of my greatsword bros after he came back as a Wiederganger.  Because apart from not dodging, he also failed every resolve test upon being damaged/surrounded, started panicking, didn't rally, and managed to not break away from two Fallen Heroes, and was precisely one hex out of reach of my nearest Rotation bro the turn that he died trying to run away. A level 4 reserve bro was part of that fight, too, by the way. He lost 9 HP. Well, good night sweet Arnulf, flights of angels sing thee to thy rest, thanks for murdering knights without damaging their helmets. So now I have no dagger bro. To make it worth it, though, the loot from this fight included a unique heater shield and...  Thanks, game! 
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May 3, 2017 06:15
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The special crossbow I found has the same stats as the Tier 3 one with one small exception. 61-85 damage. That's upwards of 59 damage getting through with crossbow specialization. A potential headshot with this could be about 90 damage through armor. Less the 10% reduction from remaining armor of course. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 06:22 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 06:20
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Wizard Styles posted:
you kinda got the short end of the stick with that. Daggers don't need armor penetration/damage and good dodge tanks are a rare.
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May 3, 2017 07:21
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look on the bright side, that dagger sure is edgy
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May 3, 2017 09:07
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Note to self: don't let orcs chase you into the swamp. I lost some good men. MVP goes to Steinar, who held off 5 orcs while standing in swamp water up to his balls with a boar spear.
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May 3, 2017 10:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Mathematically I'm not sure that's true. It's probably possible to calculate the exact value of each additional attack vs the dps value of additional to-hit. The real issue is that with berserlk a Bowman can have three attacks per round. https://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/probability-in-games-xcom/ That's what I mean. Aside from the extreme ends, yes you are correct, it is always better to fire twice (or more) if hitting is your only goal. Xcom even gave you a -15% for doing so, which fits quite nicely into the lack of the 15% you get from the bow here. Most of the time, my bannerman will have time to fire once before switching because his init sucks (stat ups are always melee atk, resolve, range def) so i'm happy to just give him a crossbow. It costs almost no fatigue to fire, he'll not be reloading and as his fatigue sucks its more efficient than using the bow, because that saves his fatigue for actually useful things like stabbing dudes and yelling about how cowards will be sacrificed to davkul. E: In fact, the only extra shot he'd be getting is from the opening salvo, so i'm happy to miss it and give him more fatigue for later
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May 3, 2017 10:51
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Update 1.1 is giving us a more modular difficulty setting. Check this poo poo out:
Nordick fucked around with this message at 16:31 on May 3, 2017 |
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