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Zore posted:The bigger plot hole is why everyone at Shujin is buying the 'Joker went home to his family' nonsense when it should be trivial for them to figure out he's the 'dead' leader of the phantom thieves. These kids were willingly dense enough to believe coach was really just the best guy ever, what are you talking about abuse?!
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May 3, 2017 16:35
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Yeah, there should've been rumors flying that he was the leader of the Phantom Thieves, absolutely. Maybe they'd die down after Joker's release, but only because that's when everyone starts to forget about the Phantom Thieves thanks to ol' Yaldy.
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May 3, 2017 16:34
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No, they actually describe that in the game, but they didn't show it. Sae did have Cognitive Akechi there. However, because Sae doesn'tk now about Akechi's special powers, Sae Cognitive Akechi is just some teenager, and Persona wielding Makoto can pretty much clown on him. As for the cops. Probably they got told that this is part of the Phantom Thieves trick. Invoke hallucinations. Don't let yourself get distracted, don't spread any rumours or it'll be your badge. Since this is about the time when people start to completely forego independence and crave authority, the cops might actually shut up about it.
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May 3, 2017 16:34
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He changed his name to Mishima and everyone forgot about him a moment later. I honestly think that was a kind of clever bit of writing. That he, like the Phantom Thieves, were just a bit of juicy gossip to be forgotten about after the initial fad. No one actually gave a poo poo beyond the "ooh, criminal record guy!"
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May 3, 2017 16:37
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Crabtree posted:These kids were willingly dense enough to believe coach was really just the best guy ever, what are you talking about abuse?! That's a little different than spreading around juicy rumors that that criminal transfer student got arrested and committed suicide. Like I feel that would even play into the authority thing, "Look what happens when you do crimes!" Its not like rumors weren't flying thick and fast about Kamoshida. Zore fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 16:35
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Shogeton posted:As for the cops. Probably they got told that this is part of the Phantom Thieves trick. Invoke hallucinations. Don't let yourself get distracted, don't spread any rumours or it'll be your badge. Since this is about the time when people start to completely forego independence and crave authority, the cops might actually shut up about it. Yeah, that's very possible, too. It's probably either that--"Don't be fooled by the Phantom Thieves' tricks!"--or that the cops just looked right past the casino because their brains just glide right over any Metaverse weirdness, like the people of Tokyo in the finale. Or a combination of both.
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May 3, 2017 16:36
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Jimbot posted:Yeah, that's where I'm filling in the blanks, but I kind of wish they showed it because that's a pretty big freaking deal. Maybe cut out the SUI director stuff to show these swat grunts wondering what the heck.
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May 3, 2017 16:40
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Zore posted:That's a little different than spreading around juicy rumors that that criminal transfer student got arrested and committed suicide. Remember this was when people thought the thieves killed people. So think of it as this way. There's a group that can kill you under mysterious ways and they only caught one of them. Would you really want to poo poo talk something like that? Also I guess Persona 5 is the Persona where you basically play as a meme.
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May 3, 2017 16:42
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I'm pretty sure I totally missed Futaba's additional explanation of the plan and I think I'm better off not knowing at this point.
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May 3, 2017 16:44
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Oxxidation posted:I'm pretty sure I totally missed Futaba's additional explanation of the plan and I think I'm better off not knowing at this point. Yeah, you have to talk to her in your bedroom after the reveal scene to get the additional details. I was kind of amused by that scene going like, "Futaba did a bunch of other complicated stuff but we don't have time to talk about that now so ask her about it later." Like, we're gonna tell you what you need to know in this scene, and I guess if you want to fill in the gaps go talk to Futaba about it.
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May 3, 2017 16:49
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May 3, 2017 17:26
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I love joker's "disguise" when he's supposed to be dead/back with his family and I wish it was a costume.
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May 3, 2017 18:07
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I figured the reason the cops didn't say anything about being in the metaverse was because other than the casino Sae's palace looks like normal Tokyo. The cops were all clustered in some back alley/side street so they never saw the casino full on, just the spotlights and whatever in the sky which could have a perfectly mundane explanation, and I didn't get the impression they were in the metaverse long enough for major discrepancies to become apparent. If you don't know about the metaverse you have no reason to think "Guess I've transitioned into a bubble reality that is the manifestation of someones mental landscape" without something major tipping you off. I mean in the introduction to the game Joker and Ryuji look right at a giant pink castle standing where their school is and are convinced its just somewhere in normal Tokyo pretty much until Morgana tells them otherwise.
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May 3, 2017 18:23
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Zore posted:The bigger plot hole is why everyone at Shujin is buying the 'Joker went home to his family' nonsense when it should be trivial for them to figure out he's the 'dead' leader of the phantom thieves. The news reports during the animated cut scene never mention Shujin. All they say is that the suspected leader of the Phantom Thieves was a high school student who was on probation for an assault charge, and that he committed suicide while in custody.
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May 3, 2017 18:27
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W.T. Fits posted:The news reports during the animated cut scene never mention Shujin. All they say is that the suspected leader of the Phantom Thieves was a high school student who was on probation for an assault charge, and that he committed suicide while in custody. Yeah, but combine that with the rumors going on for at least a month that the Phantom Thieves are Shujin students and I'm surprised that not a single on-screen student made the connection. If it's rumored for a good while that the Phantom Thieves, or at least some of them, go to your school, and then the news announces that their leader was a high school student on probation for assault, and then that one high school student at Shujin who's on probation for assault happens to "go away to be with family" at exactly the same time...
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May 3, 2017 18:31
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Harrow posted:Yeah, but combine that with the rumors going on for at least a month that the Phantom Thieves are Shujin students and I'm surprised that not a single on-screen student made the connection. If it's rumored for a good while that the Phantom Thieves, or at least some of them, go to your school, and then the news announces that their leader was a high school student on probation for assault, and then that one high school student at Shujin who's on probation for assault happens to "go away to be with family" at exactly the same time... Except we've also seen that the students at Shujin Academy are a bunch of loving sheep who'll swallow any line of bullshit they're fed because it's easier and less likely to get them in trouble if they keep their heads down and don't make a fuss.
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May 3, 2017 18:39
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I mean, that's basically true of all of Tokyo by the end, I guess I just don't find that very satisfying until it's literally Yaldabaoth interfering to screw with people's cognition and make them forget about the Phantom Thieves. I guess my point is that it would've been a lot more satisfying if someone on-screen had an attention span longer than one week at that point in the story. But I also think the game treats the player like an idiot with the sheer amount of repetitive exposition, and that's not really anything new in Persona so eh, clearly not a dealbreaker. There's a lot I love about Persona 5 and it's easily my favorite in the series, but it does a lot of things with how it tells its story that I think are serious fumbles. By the time Joker comes back to school it doesn't matter anymore, because by that point the very idea of the Phantom Thieves is being supernaturally suppressed, but before then it just really sticks out that not a single person on-screen makes the connection. Not a one. Harrow fucked around with this message at 18:47 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:45
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I love that Haru's burns are to the point but she comes off as being oblivious to them. In any other game she'd be the mastermind behind it all... she may yet be.
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May 3, 2017 18:50
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Harrow posted:I mean, that's basically true of all of Tokyo by the end, I guess I just don't find that very satisfying until it's literally Yaldabaoth interfering to screw with people's cognition and make them forget about the Phantom Thieves. The thing is, the students at Shujin were never shown to be interested in finding out what the actual details of Joker's probation and criminal record were. Mishima leaked that Joker had a record, and the rumor mill immediately started spinning out wild stories about how he's some thug who's murdered countless people and who'll go crazy and attack you if you even so much as make eye contact. Nobody cares about the truth. They just want some story to gossip about. I'll bet the number of students at Shujin who actually know any details about Joker's record beyond "He's a criminal" can be counted on one hand. W.T. Fits fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:56
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W.T. Fits posted:The thing is, the students at Shujin were never shown to be interested in finding out what the actual details of Joker's probation and criminal record were. Mishima leaked that Joker had a record, and the rumor mill immediately started spinning out wild stories about how he's some thug who's murdered countless people and who'll go crazy and attack you if you even so much as make eye contact. Nobody cares about the truth. They just want some story to gossip about. Yeah, I'm pretty sure its literally just Ryuji, Ann, Makoto and Haru. Maaaaaaaaaybe Mishima and/or Shiho. You really never integrate into the school in any way. No social links outside the party/Mishima, no clubs etc.
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May 3, 2017 18:57
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--He has glasses --Criminal --gently caress mishima
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May 3, 2017 18:59
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I heard he killed a bunch of people!
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May 3, 2017 18:59
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NRVNQSR posted:I heard he killed a bunch of people! I should ask to borrow his notes
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May 3, 2017 19:02
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Wow that Dennis/Mac faceswap with Akechi and Joker is amazing stuff, I loved the ridiculous portraits they used for "unhinged Akechi" and how insane his eyes looked during his whole rant
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May 3, 2017 19:01
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W.T. Fits posted:The thing is, the students at Shujin were never shown to be interested in finding out what the actual details of Joker's probation and criminal record were. Mishima leaked that Joker had a record, and the rumor mill immediately started spinning out wild stories about how he's some thug who's murdered countless people and who'll go crazy and attack you if you even so much as make eye contact. Nobody cares about the truth. They just want some story to gossip about. Isn't that all the more reason that someone should've started the rumor "MC must be the Phantom Thief they caught?" Like you said, they run with any rumor and it spins out of control, right? I mean, look at everything that happens: 1. "I hear the Phantom Thieves are Shujin students" goes around for a month or two 2. A Phantom Thief is caught, media reports he was a high school student with a criminal record 3. The Shujin student with a criminal record is suddenly gone at the exact same time with a vague excuse Shouldn't that be enough for rumors to run wild? I have a really hard time believing "well, the teachers said..." is enough to kill any chance of that, too, because it's not like they've listened to the teachers about any of the other rumors before then. It's kind if ridiculous to think that all of that could come together and absolutely nobody goes "I bet he was that Phantom Thief!" and then everyone's like, "I knew he was a killer," or "Wow, it's true that one of them went to our school, how scary!"
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May 3, 2017 19:01
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I like that one of the murmurs and whispers around school about Joker is "be careful, he might flip out and kill you  "
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May 3, 2017 19:02
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That is the purpose of a ninja
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May 3, 2017 19:05
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Their desire for order and obedience outweighs their desire for gossip and rumours. Not just in the school, but for the entirety of society. Once their teachers said MC was visiting home, that was the end of it. Very few people would have said otherwise, and nobody else would care to listen.
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May 3, 2017 19:05
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Their desire for order and obedience outweighs their desire for gossip and rumours. Not just in the school, but for the entirety of society. Okay, but they really hadn't established that well enough at Shujin specifically before that point. If that was supposed to be when the player starts to notice it, okay, maybe I'm the idiot here. But before that point, it really didn't seem like "let's just trust what the teachers say" would squash a rumor at Shujin, otherwise all the "the Phantom Thieves are Shujin students" rumors probably would've died out a lot faster than they did. After Shido's calling card, then yeah, nobody's thinking about the Phantom Thieves at all and it starts getting conspicuous. But before then, it just rings false, specifically in the context of what we've seen of Shujin up to that point. I dunno, it's well-established by this point that I'm really obtuse and extremely picky about storytelling so I'll shut up I guess. Harrow fucked around with this message at 19:08 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 19:05
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Blind trust in their teachers was pretty firmly established beforehand though with how no one really batted an eye towards any of Kamoshida's abuse victims.
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May 3, 2017 19:11
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Unquestioning deference to people in a position of authority over you is something that is very strongly ingrained in Japan's culture. The idea of actually rebelling against any kind of authority, even one that's blatantly unjust or corrupt, isn't something that comes easily to them. It's kinda one of the major themes of the game, even before Yaldabaoth starts warping the people's cognition post-palace 7. So if the homeroom teacher of the student in question responds to people asking about if he's the Phantom Thief suspect who committed suicide in police custory with, "No, he had to go back to his hometown to deal with a family emergency, I can't tell you what it is, that's private, now please drop it because it's none of your concern," then that's that.
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May 3, 2017 19:17
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I think "that guy was secretly the leader of the Phantom Thieves!" makes him out to be way cooler than the other rumors, in a bad way. They think of him as a dumb thug, not some criminal mastermind. It doesn't seem like an obvious extension of the rumor.
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May 3, 2017 19:19
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While I'm griping about story things that I'm probably actually wrong about : It felt kinda weird that they forced Shido connections into every target's story except Kamoshida's. Obviously Shido had been involved from Futaba's Palace onward, given that he was behind the fake Medjed, but the Shadow versions of Shido's lackies in his Palace also mention that both Kaneshiro and Madarame (for some reason) were involved with Shido. I don't know why that was necessary when it was perfectly fine for them to just be unrelated bad people, but noticeable enough that someone who knows about the Metaverse would recognize that someone else is using it and might be a threat. W.T. Fits posted:Unquestioning deference to people in a position of authority over you is something that is very strongly ingrained in Japan's culture. The idea of actually rebelling against any kind of authority, even one that's blatantly unjust or corrupt, isn't something that comes easily to them. It's kinda one of the major themes of the game, even before Yaldabaoth starts warping the people's cognition post-palace 7. ChaosArgate posted:Blind trust in their teachers was pretty firmly established beforehand though with how no one really batted an eye towards any of Kamoshida's abuse victims. Yeah, fair enough, I guess. The wild Shujin rumor mill seemed like the one exception to the "everyone just kind of keeps their head down" thing, which is why it seemed wrong to me. Like I'm not quite stupid enough to miss that blind obedience to authority is a major theme of the game, but Shujin students had been spreading rumors that their teachers really would definitely tell them to stop for the whole game and it stuck out that that one, the one that would've been actually true, is the one time they listen. Like when everyone's saying Kamoshida is sleeping with Ann--were the teachers really just letting that one fly? Obviously nobody was spreading the rumor that she was coerced into it or that Kamoshida was abusing students, but him having sex with her at all would be a huge scandal that you'd think the administration would want to stamp out. That's why I'm having a hard time buying the "all it takes is the teachers' word to shut down a rumor at Shujin" thing, because why the hell wouldn't they have shut that one down if they had that power? I dunno, I'll accept that I'm wrong because it looks like I'm the only person who missed that.
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May 3, 2017 19:23
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Nah, I'd generally agree that "students speculate about connection between Joker's absence and dead Phantom Thieves leader" is probably a dropped ball on the writers part. You can at least gloss over it by saying the Shido thing overshadowed everything but even then it's still not very satisfying to have zero speculation. The students aren't THAT disciplined by any stretch of the imagination.
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May 3, 2017 19:27
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Persona 5 Crimson will add even more thought bubble screens to fix this problem!
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May 3, 2017 19:28
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I fast-forwarded through every single one of those screens.
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May 3, 2017 19:29
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Persona 5 Crimson will add even more thought bubble screens to fix this problem! And another finger on the monkey's paw curls closed... Clarste posted:I fast-forwarded through every single one of those screens. Fun note: if you turn on auto-advance so that you don't have to keep pressing the X button during long dialog scenes, you can't manually advance the thought bubble screen for some reason! You can manually advance any other dialog box even with auto-advance on, but not the all-important thought bubbles. You can only either wait it out or fast-forward (which is the correct choice)
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May 3, 2017 19:30
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Persona 5 Crimson will add even more thought bubble screens to fix this problem! thought bubbles and endless cellphoning were the worst parts of the game
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May 3, 2017 19:30
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I liked some of the cell phone conversations but they should've cut some of the "I wonder if our change of heart worked..." ones and a few of the other "let's rehash stuff we already know" ones, especially after the second palace when it's pretty clear how things go by now.
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May 3, 2017 19:31
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I think this game not having as many goofy vignettes as 4 (like the "We're all going to eat a watermelon" scene) makes sense, but the group chats could have been used for more characterization stuff, because, you know, teens these days. The stuff they already have is pretty good so more of it would not be unwelcome. I guess it might be tricky to make some of those work based on when the player finishes the palace, because I assume a lot of those chats were "Remind the player about the Palace if they haven't done it, and if they have, well, uh"
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May 3, 2017 19:35
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