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Hillary Clinton ran a campaign bad enough that the FBI director writing a letter saying "hey maybe we might investigate her again??? i dunno lol" may or may not have been enough to tip the balance for Donald Trump Some people are afraid that the Democratic Party will not learn from its mistakes, and an indication from the person in charge of this campaign that some amount of introspection is warranted would be a good safeguard against this. If she holds the line on blaming everyone else, the people from her campaign might do likewise, and get hired again in four years because that's how this works. (and yeah "I take full responsibility" doesn't mean much when you are asked to drill down into that and respond "this one guy really hosed me over") I AM THE TOILET posted:You guys realize that Zelda is just Day by Day for lefties. Hey whoa HEY now The art is way better and it doesn't resort to nearly as many artless dated pop-culture references 
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May 3, 2017 21:23
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BarbarianElephant posted:I think anything short of "I suck and you all suck for voting me, you should have all voted Bernie" followed by a bit of literal self-flagellation would fall short. maybe not having her people get Naked and Angry Online over that Shattered book would have helped people believe she has any ability to self reflect??? Or maybe telling her dumbass kid to stay off magazine covers and not hilariously sell a book about "She Persisted" that ignores Warren in favor of shoving 'a special surprise' in that's 100% gonna be Hillary??? Or ever actually show the ability to self-reflect on her loss even once beyond just saying 'yea sure I take responsibility' before going on to say 'but ACTUALLY...'
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May 3, 2017 21:23
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sexpig by night posted:maybe not having her people get Naked and Angry Online over that Shattered book would have helped people believe she has any ability to self reflect??? Or maybe telling her dumbass kid to stay off magazine covers and not hilariously sell a book about "She Persisted" that ignores Warren in favor of shoving 'a special surprise' in that's 100% gonna be Hillary??? Or ever actually show the ability to self-reflect on her loss even once beyond just saying 'yea sure I take responsibility' before going on to say 'but ACTUALLY...' OK, a vote for the flagellation then...
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May 3, 2017 21:38
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BarbarianElephant posted:OK, a vote for the flagellation then... "Maybe she could talk about the actual problems in her campaign other than wikileaks" "Wow guess you won't be happy unless she just flays her own skin huh???"
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May 3, 2017 21:42
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Alhazred posted:Two things: a couple pages back but i didn't mean anything negative by it its actually refreshingly authentic
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May 3, 2017 21:42
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 Guardian:  "Steve Bell on Theresa May's election campaign – Tory leader accused of shutting reporters out of Cornwall factory visit as tightly controlled stage management of Tory party comes under scrutiny" Bonus! Tribune magazine:  Independent:  How Juncker's Downing Street dinner turned sour Times:  Diane Abbott says she 'misspoke' on Labour's police policy Evening Standard:  Mail: Mac on... Diane Abbott's car crash interview 
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May 3, 2017 21:49
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Hot take: Hillary still won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes, and an old and racist system allowed the old and racist candidate to win by a mere 80000 votes. People say she ignored the rust belt, but she also ignored Colorado which polled similarly to the Midwest, while Trump campaigned there too. It's a statistical anomaly, and I don't really think she would have won if she campaigned a bunch in Michigan / Wisconsin / Pennsylvania etc. The only way she would have won those voters was if she started dropping dogwhistle racism like Trump to ease their "economic anxiety", which could have potentially turned off Bernie fans. Edit: everyone that called her a flawed candidate feels to invoke a bit of sexism because she literally had to be the perfect candidate as a woman to win.
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May 3, 2017 21:56
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seiferguy posted:I don't really think she would have won if she campaigned a bunch in Michigan / Wisconsin / Pennsylvania etc. The only way she would have won those voters was if she started dropping dogwhistle racism like Trump to ease their "economic anxiety" not really sure how this follows "Speaking more to people in these states wouldn't have helped, unless she was more racist"  like, the only way this makes sense is if you take it as a given that the #1 most important issue to Pennsylvanians is racism (and that they're for it)
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May 3, 2017 21:57
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loquacius posted:Hillary Clinton ran a campaign bad enough that the FBI director writing a letter saying "hey maybe we might investigate her again??? i dunno lol" may or may not have been enough to tip the balance for Donald Trump Yeah, I'm sure that months of "but her emails" and then Comey ratfucking the campaign while staying silent about their investigation into Trump's campaign had nothing to do with the loss.
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May 3, 2017 21:58
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loquacius posted:not really sure how this follows Her messaging wasn't resonating with the white middle class. What difference would it make (heh) if she told that to them in a rally? Trump's "I'm going to get rid of the undesirables and clean up free trade" did, and Hillary wasn't going to stoop to that level.
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May 3, 2017 22:01
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loquacius posted:not really sure how this follows http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/10/donald_trump_hate_speech_racis.html
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May 3, 2017 22:06
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 1Two weeks ago Elizabeth Warren said "poop" was her favorite curse word.  2I feel like I'm missing a joke involving the CBGB and Dark Side of the Moon t-shirts.  3
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May 3, 2017 22:15
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah, I'm sure that months of "but her emails" and then Comey ratfucking the campaign while staying silent about their investigation into Trump's campaign had nothing to do with the loss. Never said it did. Tons of factors had an effect. But Trump had a scandal every time he opened his stupid mouth. HRC should have had the campaign at a walk, and everyone thought she did. seiferguy posted:Her messaging wasn't resonating with the white middle class. What difference would it make (heh) if she told that to them in a rally? Trump's "I'm going to get rid of the undesirables and clean up free trade" did, and Hillary wasn't going to stoop to that level. are you guys actually trying to argue to me that the state of Pennsylvania is majority racist Not just that, but majority single-issue-voter racists e: Apple Pie Hubbub posted:
warms my heart every time I see Bruce Tinsley utterly fail to get a slam on someone I like 
loquacius fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 22:13
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seiferguy posted:Hot take: Hillary still won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes, and an old and racist system allowed the old and racist candidate to win by a mere 80000 votes. People say she ignored the rust belt, but she also ignored Colorado which polled similarly to the Midwest, while Trump campaigned there too. It's a statistical anomaly, and I don't really think she would have won if she campaigned a bunch in Michigan / Wisconsin / Pennsylvania etc. The only way she would have won those voters was if she started dropping dogwhistle racism like Trump to ease their "economic anxiety", which could have potentially turned off Bernie fans. it's weird how historically speaking Dems could win those votes without having to agree with republican nationalism and poo poo. Like, for gently caress's sake is BILL CLINTON in on the plot because even he by every report was furious that they were completely ignoring economic justice, talking poo poo like 'America is already great', and straight up told her blaming Comey would be a very stupid thing to do. Comey and poo poo hurt her, but a better candidate could survive that poo poo. Obama was called a literal terrorist who murdered his grandmother and then later someone who cackled and watched as Americans died in Libya and he was able to handle that, you'd think someone with decades of experience with these talking points would handle it better. Her own loving campaign said she was bungling the emails issue and needed to get ahead of it better.
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May 3, 2017 22:15
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I AM THE TOILET posted:You guys realize that Zelda is just Day by Day for lefties.
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May 3, 2017 22:18
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May 3, 2017 22:23
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Apple Pie Hubbub posted:I feel like I'm missing a joke involving the CBGB and Dark Side of the Moon t-shirts. Boomer.
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May 3, 2017 22:27
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Bernie couldn't have won. He lost the primary because six debates weren't enough to overtake Hillary, but the general would have only had three debates. 
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May 3, 2017 22:26
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loquacius posted:are you guys actually trying to argue to me that the state of Pennsylvania is majority racist I know my area of PA is dumb and racist as hell. Plus, it's coal country, and I've already commented on how coal is this huge sacred cow. And I would like to emphasize the "dumb" part. Hell, my own dad was steadfastly locked onto "But her e-mails!", no matter how many times someone showed him the countless reports written by people who were literally out to get her that admit "Yeah, we got nothing." Or, take a trip to West Virginia, where you have my supervisor going "Yeah, I'll NEVER vote for her or any woman, because I'll be damned if a woman is gonna tell ME what to do."
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May 3, 2017 22:30
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loquacius posted:are you guys actually trying to argue to me that the state of Pennsylvania is majority racist Pennsylvania is one of the most racists states in America. Also look at the turnout numbers between 2012 and 2016. Notice Clinton only lost 64k from Obama's 2012 performance while Trump gained 290k over Romney's 2012 loss. Voter turnout increased 412k from 2012. To say there wasn't a surge of racist voters energized by Trump's openly racist rhetoric and blame it all on Hillary being lukewarm is just being willfully ignorant.
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May 3, 2017 22:35
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SwitchbladeKult posted:Pennsylvania is one of the most racists states in America. Also look at the turnout numbers between 2012 and 2016. Notice Clinton only lost 64k from Obama's 2012 performance while Trump gained 290k over Romney's 2012 loss. Voter turnout increased 412k from 2012. To say there wasn't a surge of racist voters energized by Trump's openly racist rhetoric and blame it all on Hillary being lukewarm is just being willfully ignorant. racism was a factor, so was clinton being a terrible candidate, two things can be causes for a loss, in fact many can be.
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May 3, 2017 22:39
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loquacius posted:are you guys actually trying to argue to me that the state of Pennsylvania is majority racist I'm not talking KKK esque racism, but "Mexicans took my job and Hillary wants more migrants  " racism. The type of racism where people earnestly believe they aren't racist, but just want "legal immigration." And yes I do think that was a major factor.
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May 3, 2017 22:45
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Alhazred posted:Introducing the characters in Zelda: What's the name of this comic? Searching for zelda isn't very helpful.
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May 3, 2017 22:47
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sexpig by night posted:racism was a factor, so was clinton being a terrible candidate, two things can be causes for a loss, in fact many can be. My point is Trump gained more than Hillary lost. If you look at Democrats' performance in Pennsylvania over time you can see Hillary would have had to match Obama's unbelievably good performance in 2008 to overtake Trump's giant surge. Instead she only matched Kerry, Gore, and Obama 2012. What a failure!
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May 3, 2017 22:55
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SwitchbladeKult posted:My point is Trump gained more than Hillary lost. If you look at Democrats' performance in Pennsylvania over time you can see Hillary would have had to match Obama's unbelievably good performance in 2008 to overtake Trump's giant surge. Instead she only matched Kerry, Gore, and Obama 2012. What a failure! Yea Pennsylvania was always a hard win for the blue team. Wisconsin and Michigan shouldn't be, though.
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May 3, 2017 22:59
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Sir Tonk posted:What's the name of this comic? Searching for zelda isn't very helpful.
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May 3, 2017 23:01
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I don't care how many examples you can show me of people from a swing state being racist, if the only thing you can come up with for how to win that swing state is "maybe try being more racist???" I'm glad you're not running the campaign
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May 3, 2017 23:03
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loquacius posted:I don't care how many examples you can show me of people from a swing state being racist, if the only thing you can come up with for how to win that swing state is "maybe try being more racist???" I'm glad you're not running the campaign also this, those morons who think the drat budget is loaded with foreign aid probably could be reached with better messaging than 'america is already great' and 'the economic is actually good'.
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May 3, 2017 23:06
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loquacius posted:I don't care how many examples you can show me of people from a swing state being racist, if the only thing you can come up with for how to win that swing state is "maybe try being more racist???" I'm glad you're not running the campaign Look at the numbers! Hillary did as well as the last three Democrat candidates while Trump did incredibly better. How do you explain the surge of voters for Trump if not racists coming out on record numbers to vote for a candidate that finally speaks their awful language? I don't see how Hillary being lukewarm drove 250k voters to Trump while still matching Gore, Kerry, and Obama 2012. SwitchbladeKult fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 23:08
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SwitchbladeKult posted:Look at the numbers! Hillary did as well as the last three Democrat candidates while Trump did incredibly better. How do you explain the surge of voters for Trump if not racists coming out on record numbers to vote for a candidate that finally speaks their awful language? I don't see how Hillary being lukewarm drove 250k voters to Trump while still matching Gore, Kerry, and Obama 2013. when you have nothing and no prospects you can really easily find the motive to vote against someone saying 'america is already great because america is good' and Trump's 'forgotten man' poo poo was made to appeal to that. Hillary got loving rolled by her own messaging my duder.
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May 3, 2017 23:10
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SwitchbladeKult posted:Look at the numbers! Hillary did as well as the last three Democrat candidates while Trump did incredibly better. How do you explain the surge of voters for Trump if not racists coming out on record numbers to vote for a candidate that finally speaks their awful language? I don't see how Hillary being lukewarm drove 250k voters to Trump while still matching Gore, Kerry, and Obama 2013. I'm not really sure how you're getting from "the GOP had high turnout this year" to "there is literally nothing Hillary could have done to win this state because they are far too racist" like, there are several missing steps in your logic
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May 3, 2017 23:13
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SwitchbladeKult posted:Look at the numbers! Hillary did as well as the last three Democrat candidates while Trump did incredibly better. How do you explain the surge of voters for Trump if not racists coming out on record numbers to vote for a candidate that finally speaks their awful language? I don't see how Hillary being lukewarm drove 250k voters to Trump while still matching Gore, Kerry, and Obama 2013. Third party candidates were up 185k votes in Pennsylvania compared to 2012. Could she have gained all those voters? Could she have convinced some Trump voters to vote for her? Who knows. Maybe it wouldn't have been enough to win the state. But it was very, very close.
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May 3, 2017 23:14
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sexpig by night posted:when you have nothing and no prospects you can really easily find the motive to vote against someone saying 'america is already great because america is good' and Trump's 'forgotten man' poo poo was made to appeal to that. Hillary got loving rolled by her own messaging my duder. Trump's "forgotten man" poo poo was "Negroes and Mexicans stole your jobs with the help of the Chinese and their jazz cigarettes"
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May 3, 2017 23:22
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I'm sure glad we're having this dumb discussion again. That horse ain't already dust & bones for sure.
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May 3, 2017 23:24
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loquacius posted:I'm not really sure how you're getting from "the GOP had high turnout this year" to "there is literally nothing Hillary could have done to win this state because they are far too racist" The GOP had an unusually high turnout during a year where they had an unusually overtly racist campaign. The math isn't hard.
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May 3, 2017 23:24
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I AM THE TOILET posted:You guys realize that Zelda is just Day by Day for lefties. It's closer to A4D with competent art, honestly, in terms of its political strips being a battle of too-many-loving-words vs facile strawmen. I do wonder if it reads better the native language, though -these look like fan translations, and there's a lot of subtlety to good humor that might not get carried over by an overly-literal translation...though going by the overall structure of the comics this might be giving them too much credit. DBD is pretty much Dees minus the talent and can't really be compared to things made by sane people with functional brains. Like, all his opinions and conspiracy nonsense aside, we're talking about a man who can't even write a sentence coherently.
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May 3, 2017 23:26
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Starshark posted:Without rape and racism, this comparison is meaningless. Also, despite actually being written in another language, it still more understandable. And it's not traced from pornos. And the characters don't look like melting abominations. And it's not bizarre wish fulfilment of a sad, pathetic little man who wants to build a gently caress barn. And it's not about how amazing the lead characters pussy is. So, you know, like Day By Day, except in any of the things that defined day by day
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May 3, 2017 23:42
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Cabbit posted:The GOP had an unusually high turnout during a year where they had an unusually overtly racist campaign. The math isn't hard. Even if I accepted this argument wholesale, that Trump won this state because of racism and no other reason, which I don't there's still a pretty loving huge leap from there to "no other tactic than racism can reach people here, because racism is an unstoppable juggernaut and the new American politics"
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May 3, 2017 23:46
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Fulchrum posted:Also, despite actually being written in another language, it still more understandable. Yeah, it's more like a less dour DTWOF.
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May 3, 2017 23:52
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We're not talking about the next election, we're talking about the last one. As for 2020, we don't have to flip Trump voters to the Democrats to win. We can turn Trump voters into non-voters, and non-voters into Gillibrand voters. That'll be easier.
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May 3, 2017 23:52
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