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jabby posted:Then it depends what you mean by 'more than a joke opposition'. If you mean Corbyn and McDonnell might have a shot at convincing people of left-wing ideas if they were better at their jobs, sure. If you mean that bringing back Miliband and his racist mugs would going to get people to be less nationalist by pandering to their nationalism, you're off your rocker.
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May 4, 2017 20:22
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jBrereton posted:End of the day you had Chaka Umunna talking sense about this last night on C4 news, and if the party is failing to deal with the press, that is a failure of the party apparatus. If you start from the assertion that people can't just be vile then I suppose everything must be the fault of the Labour party but I continue to see no reason to believe that first premise.
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May 4, 2017 20:22
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jBrereton posted:I mean the country always does pretty well for itself in terms of aid donations and so on relative to literally everywhere else in the world other than Ireland, I don't think tarring everyone with the idiot racist brush is useful or even accurate. I think you're confusing matters of national spending policy with the actual opinions of the electorate themselves. We also give military support to Saudi Arabia, that doesn't necessarily mean the people of Britain are rabidly pro-Saudi.
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May 4, 2017 20:26
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OwlFancier posted:If you start from the assertion that people can't just be vile then I suppose everything must be the fault of the Labour party but I continue to see no reason to believe that first premise.
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May 4, 2017 20:28
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Do you think there might have been other things that happened in the intervening 10 years other than Jeremy Corbyn? Or the Labour party in general?
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May 4, 2017 20:27
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TomViolence posted:I think you're confusing matters of national spending policy with the actual opinions of the electorate themselves. There's all kinds of articles about it, albeit largely from the hated Tory press but they're out there.
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May 4, 2017 20:31
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OwlFancier posted:Do you think there might have been other things that happened in the intervening 10 years other than Jeremy Corbyn? Or the Labour party in general?
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May 4, 2017 20:31
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I bring gifts from America: Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Any household with taxable income over $250,000 gets a tax cut. The working class benefit, not just millionaires.
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May 4, 2017 20:36
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jBrereton posted:I'm sure there is a solid core of dickheads in this country, right. But go back ten years and I think the mainstream opinions in this country were much more open and optimistic than now, because Labour and its message were properly out there. That's why you had Cameron hugging hoodies and talking about the Big Society and so on, instead of this race to the cynical, sharp-elbowed, nasty bottom you have now that Labour apparently doesn't know how to engage with and make a persuasive case against. Nobody changed, the Brexit referendum just happened. Politicians including Cameron were preaching globalisation and looking beyond our borders right up to the point we had the referendum and the ruling class realised at least 52% of the population hated multiculturalism and wanted to go back to the 1950s. So they started pandering to them.
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May 4, 2017 20:37
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jBrereton posted:Not to the extent there's been lately where the left wing message has just vanished into an echo chamber which is mad nobody else can hear it and in fact blames them for its own existence. Do you think perhaps there might have been something that happened in the intervening 10 years that wasn't related to the Labour party which caused people to not be very interested in spreading left wing messages to a wide audience?
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May 4, 2017 20:38
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OwlFancier posted:Do you think perhaps there might have been something that happened in the intervening 10 years that wasn't related to the Labour party which caused people to not be very interested in spreading left wing messages to a wide audience?
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May 4, 2017 20:38
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TheRat posted:I bring gifts from America: Oh wow. That's funny but also not funny at all.
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May 4, 2017 20:44
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lol america https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/860199590599020544
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May 4, 2017 20:47
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jBrereton posted:Since you clearly have a loving brilliant idea, why not lay it out for me. The country as a whole has swung right. Labour didn't help this particularly with Blair going on an arab murder spree during the later part of his tenure and successor leaderships failing to swing sharply back to counter that trend, but the entire political landscape has swung steadily towards xenophobia. People have lost faith that liberalism works, so the Tories now practice economic liberalism while sporting a massive authoritarian boner on social issues and shouting up nationalism to disguise it. Our press spouts the same thing, the whole world is turning slowly, weightily towards a rejection of the liberal dream of everything being great as long as we deregulate everything and stop governing everything but the poor, who obviously can't be trusted to govern themselves. And it's rejecting it in the way that the powerful have seized on, which is to find someone else to blame for their failings. It happens that we live in a place which relies a huge amount on privately controlled entities to dictate our national zeitgeist and what we, collectively, believe about the world. And it happens that those entities are all in bed with the lovely right, and don't want to be blamed any more than the right governments do for failing the populace. So they run with the narrative. If Labour did anything wrong it's that when they did have power, and when the world was not quite exactly where it is now, they didn't do anything to remedy this because they too were chasing the liberal dream. And now it turns out nobody wants to listen to them when they aren't quite nasty enough to pin the blame on someone else, and when they are long past the point where a positive hope of socialism and co-operation could be regarded as anything but pathetic naivete in the popular discourse. The hope, if there is any, lies in people who reject the above. It may be there's nothing we can do about it and there are far too few of them to matter. It may be the cause is already lost. But believing that it can be won merely by saying the right magic words and somehow everyone will see the light of socialism is laughable. Nobody has that amount of individual agency. The mistake was made years and years ago, and it's too late to undo it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:53 on May 4, 2017 |
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May 4, 2017 20:51
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forkboy84 posted:Oh wow. That's funny but also not funny at all. I have a very important update: Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Most economists would say that cost of living varies with geographic area.
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May 4, 2017 20:53
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TheRat posted:I have a very important update: You ever get the desire to just hit someone repeatedly with a rock screaming "you stupid motherfucker" until they stop it? Cos I got that feeling.
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May 4, 2017 20:57
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ALSo 15 years of an actual religious war against muslims Lots of people believe in God king and country and take this poo poo seriously This is blairs real poison legacy
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May 4, 2017 21:07
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TheRat posted:I have a very important update: Death to Amerikkka the GreAT sATAN
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May 4, 2017 21:11
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OwlFancier posted:Labour didn't help this particularly with Blair going on an arab murder spree during the later part of his tenure and successor leaderships failing to swing sharply back to counter that trend It's almost as if he internalized the idea that 80s Labour were a laughing stock because they were too soft and lefty as well as economically irresponsible, and so not only went the path of fiscal liberalism but also vomiting prohibitions and ASBOs and terror threats everywhere.
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May 4, 2017 21:18
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Oberleutnant posted:Death to Amerikkka the GreAT sATAN 
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May 4, 2017 21:18
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TheRat posted:I have a very important update: I really want to know where leon trotsky 2012 thinks the poverty line is. $100k?
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May 4, 2017 21:22
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I'm doing my bit for Corbyn
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May 4, 2017 21:26
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Guavanaut posted:They worked on Concorde (except that time it hit a hotel) and that cruised at 72mbar outside pressure, a lot closer to the hyperloop's 1mbar than to sea level pressure. Except if Concorde lost pressure (and didn't just immediately disintegrate, which is by far the most likely scenario if anything caused a loss of cabin pressure at supersonic speeds) it could get down to non-deadly altitudes in less than a minute. A hyperloop train doesn't have that option. Hoops posted:And if a aeroplanes engines fall off you'll fall 30,000 feet and explode on landing. Don't be luddites. If an aeroplane crashes it doesn't then suck every other aeroplane on the same route towards it at transonic speeds. There's being a luddite and there's having even the most basic understanding of engineering, and the criticisms of hyperloop-type concepts almost all fit into the latter category.
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May 4, 2017 21:30
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Hyperloops are on a Dahir Insaat level of dumb poo poo
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May 4, 2017 21:34
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forkboy84 posted:I really want to know where leon trotsky 2012 thinks the poverty line is. $100k? It's pure garbage anyway. You could be stupidly wealthy and have £500 million in the bank but have an income of 0 (or a net loss!) a year because your investments sucked but you're still filthy rich, and you can have an income of £200k from work but it's your only source of income and you don't yet have enough amassed capital and you're still working class and if you get fired and can't get a job that good again and didn't save then you're hosed same as everyone else. I can't believe we're having the "what's a middle class" talk again. It's easy: - If you depend solely on your work income then you're working class, no matter how much you make (notice though, that a couple years with a high income will very likely put you in either middle class or the petit-bourgouise) - If you depend mostly on your work income but you've got some property that you rent out, or some investments that net you some extra cash then you're petit-bourgouise or middle-class lite - If you own a company and hire others to work for you but work alongside them and also depend on the income of said company, then you're middle class - If you own a large amount of capital that you invest to make more capital and don't depend on ANY income from anything (i.e. you can comfortably survive on your capital until the day you die) then you're the capital class and my friend, the guillotine is waiting
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May 4, 2017 21:39
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Except if Concorde lost pressure (and didn't just immediately disintegrate, which is by far the most likely scenario if anything caused a loss of cabin pressure at supersonic speeds) it could get down to non-deadly altitudes in less than a minute. A hyperloop train doesn't have that option. Well yeah, a hyperloop train can be back to normal pressure in less than a few seconds assuming you just blow some emergency hatches off the tube and open it to atmosphere. That would also be the solution to the 'train crashes/gets stuck' problem.
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May 4, 2017 21:38
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Had only Labour (great guy), Conservative (brown noser with property companies) and Green to choose from for the CC elections. Also heard the same from 2 other people in different area i.e. no LD but a green candidate. Have the Lib Dem's just given up on County Councils that they stand no chance in now? Its odd given the Greens are trying yet the LD's just not bothering.
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May 4, 2017 21:41
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I'm sure a repressurization shockwave travelling at the speed of sound won't cause any problems
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May 4, 2017 21:41
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Sapozhnik posted:I'm sure a repressurization shockwave travelling at the speed of sound won't cause any problems What's the speed of sound in a vacuum?
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May 4, 2017 21:44
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big scary monsters posted:What's the speed of sound in a vacuum? Whatever the speed the gas carrying it is expanding into the vacuum at.
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May 4, 2017 21:46
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Pochoclo posted:I can't believe we're having the "what's a middle class" talk again. It's easy: Who are the UK, Kulaks and how should they be executed?
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May 4, 2017 21:46
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Sapozhnik posted:Hyperloops are on a Dahir Insaat level of dumb poo poo "Why have high-speed rail when we could spend 1000 times as much on completely untested technology?" The best part about hyperloop is it ends somewhere like 100km north of LA, so it completely negates the advantage its supposed to have over planes.
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May 4, 2017 21:51
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Jack2142 posted:Who are the UK, Kulaks and how should they be executed? Landlords, guillotine.
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May 4, 2017 21:49
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Sapozhnik posted:I'm sure a repressurization shockwave travelling at the speed of sound won't cause any problems The pressure difference is only 1 atmosphere, it's probably safer than being exposed to vacuum for any length of time. In any case it illustrates the fact that the loop could be repressurised pretty much as fast as you want it to be.
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May 4, 2017 21:49
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Pochoclo posted:I can't believe we're having the "what's a middle class" talk again. It's easy: OwlFancier posted:Whatever the speed the gas carrying it is expanding into the vacuum at. Jack2142 posted:Who are the UK, Kulaks and how should they be executed?
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May 4, 2017 21:50
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Sapozhnik posted:Hyperloops are on a Dahir Insaat level of dumb poo poo No they're not. They're massively overpriced and a neat technological answer to a problem much better solved with cooperation from multiple fields, but they're an actual solution. jabby posted:The pressure difference is only 1 atmosphere, it's probably safer than being exposed to vacuum for any length of time. I want a second opinion from someone who knows anything about the subject.
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May 4, 2017 21:54
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endlessmonotony posted:I want a second opinion from someone who knows anything about the subject. I'll have you know I'm the internet's foremost authority in what might probably happen when a hypothetical mode of transport breaks down.
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May 4, 2017 22:00
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Guavanaut posted:Where do freelancers and people who own their own business but without employees fall? Assuming that they depend on the work to survive and it's not bullshit JobCentre+ 'you should start a business' stuff. Working class.
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May 4, 2017 22:02
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endlessmonotony posted:No they're not. They're massively overpriced and a neat technological answer to a problem much better solved with cooperation from multiple fields, but they're an actual solution. Technically that is also true of the hell bed and the car supermarket and the underground delivery network.
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May 4, 2017 22:01
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jabby posted:I'll have you know I'm the internet's foremost authority in what might probably happen when a hypothetical mode of transport breaks down. We do know what pressure changes do to the human body. It's mostly useful for treating divers.
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May 4, 2017 22:03
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