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Cnut the Great posted:I'm always amused at people who get mad at Walt for killing Gus, a murderous drug kingpin who destroyed countless lives with his business and threatened to murder Walt's entire family, infant daughter included. I get being mad because Gus is a really engaging character portrayed by a really talented actor and you want to see more of him, but yeah Gus vs. Walter was the last time I actively rooted for Walt until he started gunning down nazis. I definitely want to see more of the cold-hearted "I will kill your infant daughter"/"a bullet to the head is too good for him" side of Gus Fring moving forward. It's loving chilling.
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May 5, 2017 17:05
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Karmine posted:
Well, I think they could engineer something where she ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets offed in cartel-related doings, or something of the sort, and they could make it seem feasible--or at least feasible within the world these characters operate in. But...to what end? If this show's approach is to study the characters, I think there's a lot more mileage to be gained from letting her and Jimmy drift apart or break up or be forced apart by circumstances or whatever.
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May 5, 2017 17:21
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Karmine posted:I get being mad because Gus is a really engaging character portrayed by a really talented actor and you want to see more of him, but yeah Gus vs. Walter was the last time I actively rooted for Walt until he started gunning down nazis. I agree, it's always good to see more Gus. I just like to keep things in perspective a little bit sometimes by pointing out that these are all bad guys. Right now though it's hard not to root for Gus against Hector. Gus comes across as so calculated, cool, and strangely principled while Hector is just a boorish, vulgar rear end in a top hat. The ironic thing is that by the end of their arcs on Breaking Bad I somehow still start to feel some empathy for Hector, whose life has become reduced to a living hell where he sits all day trapped in his paralyzed body, incontinent, condescended to by babying nurses who he has to have change his diapers, and forced to watch his entire extended family killed by his arch-rival who periodically stops by to cruelly mock him. His final hateful stare at Gus before he detonates the bomb and kills them both strangely makes me feel some catharsis on his behalf. And once again, it's basically a morally neutral action: Gus got his revenge, Hector got his revenge, then they cancelled each other out forever. That's what's so ingenious about these shows though--the way they're constantly forcing you to shift your point of view and see things from different, and in some ways equally valid perspectives. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 17:26 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 17:23
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I want to know what happens to Nacho
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May 5, 2017 17:30
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When the nurse asks Hector if he has to make poopies or whatever is the moment when you have to kind of forget everything else and feel sad and embarrassed on behalf of not just Hector, but all elderly, infirm people everywhere. Certainly anyone at Casa Tranquila who has to deal with this loving nurse.
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May 5, 2017 17:32
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I just remembered the scene where Hector goes to "testify", that was pretty good.
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May 5, 2017 17:35
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drunken officeparty posted:I want to know what happens to Nacho He and Kim elope.
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May 5, 2017 17:51
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The worst thing about BCS is how you have to fall in love with Mike all over again and watch him do all this badass stuff with the knowledge that he eventually ends up getting killed by a numbnuts schoolteacher with his own gun. On the other hand I really love watching all the Gus/Hector stuff knowing that these two guys end up exploding together.
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May 5, 2017 17:53
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Cnut the Great posted:I'm always amused at people who get mad at Walt for killing Gus, a murderous drug kingpin who destroyed countless lives with his business and threatened to murder Walt's entire family, infant daughter included. If we're going to talk context, though, Walt's assassination of Gus led to the feds confiscating the money Mike spent years earning and stowing away for his granddaughter. And even though it seems routine by the time we see him gunning people down in Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul depicts Mike as being wary of taking on work that involves murder. From Mike's viewpoint, he spent years doing things that he was reluctant to begin doing to save money for his family, and Walt just swoops in and blows it by killing his boss. You can kind of see why Mike would insist that Walt should've just kept his head down and followed orders, because Mike himself had successfully been doing just that up until that point. A great thing about these series is the characters having believably flawed perspectives on what they're involved in and each other. Mike isn't thinking about how Walt was trying to save Jesse, because Mike primarily comes away with the impression that Walt is a prideful, manipulative wiener in most of their interactions. The audience sees that Walt does have some dysfunctional protectiveness over Jesse, but other characters only witness a handful of the events that prove that and from a perspective of limited understanding. Jesse killing Gale could easily be interpreted as Walt just using Jesse as a tool to save his own rear end. That said, you're on the mark about some viewers not grasping that Gus' threat against Walt's family is definitely solid ground for Walt's decision to go on the offense and kill Gus. I don't think the series ever made it explicit that Gus approved the murder of Tomás, but if you're Walt and you know that the man who just threatened to kill your kids potentially gave the order to kill a kid, you are probably going to err on the side of blowing him up. Though I don't know if I'd use "morally neutral" as a descriptor for Walt and Hector detonating a bomb in a seniors facility. His target was equally bad, but collateral from a chair wheel and assorted shrapnel could've totally been an end result, too.
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May 5, 2017 18:48
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While I think Walt killing Gus was justified, I always just assumed the threat to kill his family was a bluff to scare off Walt. I also recently re-watched Breaking Bad, I was really effected by the scene where Walt has dinner with Gus. Gus and Walt finally find someone on their intellectual level and you can tell they really enjoy each other's company. Gus offers to help Walt navigate the business and they become friends. Then their budding friendship get's blown up when Walt saves Jessie. Every time I watch this I get sad for what might have been. Not not only has Walt almost achieved the safety and stability he's been looking for, but watching a Walt and Gus buddy team-up against the cartel would've been really cool, instead, Things Fall Apart. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 19:10
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-Blackadder- posted:Not not only has Walt almost achieved the safety and stability he's been looking for, how do people keep thinking this
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May 5, 2017 19:23
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Sagebrush posted:how do people keep thinking this If Gus managed the business, and Walt managed the cooking, they'd be relatively set.
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May 5, 2017 19:48
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:If Gus managed the business, and Walt managed the cooking, they'd be relatively set. Pretty much yeah. Especially when you consider the roller coaster of insanity that Walt had been dealing with up until that point. Every time he tried to conduct business normally he'd invariably get involved with some irrational psychotic monster like Crazy 8 or Tuco. Initially, before he got drunk off the power-high, Walt just wanted to sell drugs like D'Angelo suggested in The Wire. Unfortunately, aside from Jesse, all of his prospective business partners were insane. Walt definitely saw Gus, with his professionalism and rational behavior, as an oasis in a desert full of lunatics. Gus' operation was probably about as safe and stable as such a business could be and a hell of a lot safer and stable than what Walt had been doing up until then. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 20:07
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:If Gus managed the business, and Walt managed the cooking, they'd be relatively set. Yep, they would have been fine. Key word in your quote is "relatively." They'd be relatively safe and stable, for the business they're in, anyway.
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May 5, 2017 20:09
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Stahlgeist posted:If we're going to talk context, though, Walt's assassination of Gus led to the feds confiscating the money Mike spent years earning and stowing away for his granddaughter. And even though it seems routine by the time we see him gunning people down in Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul depicts Mike as being wary of taking on work that involves murder. From Mike's viewpoint, he spent years doing things that he was reluctant to begin doing to save money for his family, and Walt just swoops in and blows it by killing his boss. You can kind of see why Mike would insist that Walt should've just kept his head down and followed orders, because Mike himself had successfully been doing just that up until that point. Don't forget that the entire situation with Jesse being involved with Gus came about because Walt just couldn't loving stand not being the smartest person in the room and fired Gale. And the entire loving premise happening because Walt couldn't get over his bullshit with Grey Matter and take the money from them. Mike was 100% correct.
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May 5, 2017 20:21
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Walt sucks
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May 5, 2017 20:23
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The Shortest Path posted:Don't forget that the entire situation with Jesse being involved with Gus came about because Walt just couldn't loving stand not being the smartest person in the room and fired Gale. Having just binged through a BB re-watch I think there's some nuance to it that can be clarified. Walt didn't replace Gale with Jesse because he was intimidated by Gale's intelligence, my impression was that Walt actually found Gale to be a refreshing change from Jesse, but after Hank beat up Jesse, Jesse stated that he was going to sue Hank/The DEA and then go right back to selling drugs and when Saul suggested that this would almost ensure that the DEA would eventually nail him Jesse threatened to give Walt to the DEA as a plea bargaining chip. So Walt offered Jesse the job as his partner to get him to drop the charges against Hank, which worked. As far as Walt choosing to cook meth over taking charity being the impetus for the whole series, this is partially true, however it's never specified if the Gray Matter job offer or Gretchen and Elliot paying for his treatment would be enough money for the additional family expenses that he wanted to cover in the event of his death. When Walt discusses his reasoning for cooking meth with Jesse, he includes using the money to pay for future child support, school, food, mortgage, etc for his family, not only his treatment. Obviously Walt had some deep seated issues with taking charity and his ego, Saul actually says as much at one point in the series when he suggests that Walt's drug money be funneled to the family through a lottery scheme and Walt rejects this option because it's money he earned. However, when he decided to start cooking meth instead of taking Gretchen and Elliot's job/charity, Walt also may have been considering that it might not have been enough money to support his family after he died, which at that point he was assuming that he would. e: vvv you're quick, already added that in. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 20:37
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-Blackadder- posted:As far as Walt choosing to cook meth over taking charity being the impetus for the whole series, this is partially true, however it's never specified if Gretchen and Elliot were just going to pay for Walt's treatment or something beyond that. When Walt discusses his reasoning for cooking meth with Jesse, he includes using the money to pay for future child support, school, food, mortgage, etc for his family, not only his treatment. Walt was offered a job at Gray Matter at Elliot and Gretchen's party, and Walt seems sort of receptive to it, but once Walt hears Elliot say that the job had "excellent health insurance," he realized it was being offered because Skyler told Elliot about his cancer. Then he turns it down.
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May 5, 2017 20:48
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The Shortest Path posted:Don't forget that the entire situation with Jesse being involved with Gus came about because Walt just couldn't loving stand not being the smartest person in the room and fired Gale. That's not why Walt fired Gale. At no point does it come across like Walt resents Gale for being smarter than him (which he clearly isn't, at least not when it comes to chemistry). Walt obviously likes Gale and finds him a refreshing change of pace at first. Walt fires Gale in large part because he genuinely misses working with Jesse, going so far as to offer Jesse a 50/50 partnership with him to get him to come back, which is not something a prideful guy like Walt does lightly. (Of course he also wants to divert Jesse from suing the DEA for Hank beating him up.) quote:And the entire loving premise happening because Walt couldn't get over his bullshit with Grey Matter and take the money from them. Okay, but then he wouldn't be working for Gus in the first place, which is what Mike was saying Walt should have been doing. And neither Walt nor Mike should have been working in the meth industry. They both had their own reasons for doing so, which ultimately weren't that good. BCS makes it even clearer than it already was that what Mike is doing is not really entirely about getting money that his family desperately needs. Stacey and Kaylee don't actually need the kind of money Mike's pulling down at that point to be okay. But Mike keeps giving them money anyway because he feels guilty and is willing to do whatever Stacey asks for in order to assuage that guilt.
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May 5, 2017 22:07
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-Blackadder- posted:Having just binged through a BB re-watch I think there's some nuance to it that can be clarified. I think Jesse basically gave up on his revenge plans against Hank when Hank got shot by the twins. His reaction as he's leaving the hospital and sees Hank being carted in indicates this, though it's fairly subtle. What you describe is the ostensible reason Walt brought Jesse in and it may explain part of his reasoning but it wasn't really necessary at that point. Walt was also threatened by Gale because he was too competent and could easily replace Walt once he knew the cooking method. Gale was probably a deliberate insurance move on Gus's part in case Walt became a problem and had to be disposed of. quote:As far as Walt choosing to cook meth over taking charity being the impetus for the whole series, this is partially true, however it's never specified if the Gray Matter job offer or Gretchen and Elliot paying for his treatment would be enough money for the additional family expenses that he wanted to cover in the event of his death. When Walt discusses his reasoning for cooking meth with Jesse, he includes using the money to pay for future child support, school, food, mortgage, etc for his family, not only his treatment. There is no reason to think that Elliot and Gretchen's money would not have been enough and that they wouldn't have helped out Walt's family after he died. Nothing in the show indicates this and there's a simpler, more direct explanation that the show's text does support. The show makes it pretty clear that Walt could have easily chosen the charity path if not for his impotent ego trip.
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May 5, 2017 22:08
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My best friend has tried to watch BB, but can't, because he says Walt comes off as extremely dumb in the first season (mainly pertaining to his refusal of Gretchen and Elliot's job/charity ). Also, he's heard hundreds of people go on and on about the show, and he's sick of hearing about it. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 22:07
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MY GIRLFRIEND refuses to watch Breaking Bad because she says it's mean-spirited
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May 5, 2017 22:13
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Ein cooler Typ posted:MY GIRLFRIEND refuses to watch Breaking Bad because she says it's mean-spirited To add to that, I think I mentioned before how my dad won't watch it because he knows it's about the tragic and violent downfall if a family man who makes poor decisions. He doesn't see entertainment in that, and that's fair.
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May 5, 2017 22:15
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Colonel Whitey posted:I think Jesse basically gave up on his revenge plans against Hank when Hank got shot by the twins. His reaction as he's leaving the hospital and sees Hank being carted in indicates this, though it's fairly subtle. What you describe is the ostensible reason Walt brought Jesse in and it may explain part of his reasoning but it wasn't really necessary at that point. Walt was also threatened by Gale because he was too competent and could easily replace Walt once he knew the cooking method. Gale was probably a deliberate insurance move on Gus's part in case Walt became a problem and had to be disposed of. No, I definitely agree that the primary reasoning behind Walt's actions is his ego and practically Randian perception of charity, but it's certainly worth considering that the expenses he was projecting for providing for his family were beyond what he was going to get out of the Gretchen/Elliot deal. He even says that he doesn't want to leave his family high and dry even if he could afford the treatment. There's nothing to suggest that Gretchen and Elliot were going to support Walt's family after his death either. The job offer was just an excuse to give him health insurance, it's not like Elliot was going to give Walt back his half of the company. It's really not at all uncommon for people in Walt's position; a single-income family person with a baby on the way, who already works two jobs to only barely make ends meet to find out they're probably going to die and then feel like they're going to leave nothing behind to support their family. This doesn't justify Walt's actions or change his primary motivation but it's a certainly a thing that is there. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 22:54 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 22:22
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Colonel Whitey posted:I think Jesse basically gave up on his revenge plans against Hank when Hank got shot by the twins. His reaction as he's leaving the hospital and sees Hank being carted in indicates this, though it's fairly subtle. What you describe is the ostensible reason Walt brought Jesse in and it may explain part of his reasoning but it wasn't really necessary at that point. Walt was also threatened by Gale because he was too competent and could easily replace Walt once he knew the cooking method. Gale was probably a deliberate insurance move on Gus's part in case Walt became a problem and had to be disposed of. In what way does it ever come across like this enters into Walt's decision at that point? Walt hires Jesse back because he's his partner, not Gale. Part of Walt's whole power trip is that he wants to be better than Elliott Schwartz ever was. In Walt's mind, Elliott betrayed Walt, his partner, because he was an elitist who thought Walt was low class, beneath him. That's why Walt is so obsessed with the idea of he and Jesse being partners, gets so mad whenever he perceives Jesse has betrayed him, and ultimately ends up feeling so much guilt himself when Jesse accuses Walt of the same. Jesse is the only person Walt would ever, ever admit to being equal in skill to himself as a meth cook, even as an emotional ploy. Jesse may be a low class meth addict burnout, but Walt believes he has "potential" to be a great meth cook like himself. He sees him as a surrogate son, even groggily referring to Walt Jr. as "Jesse" at one point during an extreme low point in his and Jesse's relationship which Walt is clearly very distressed about. It's never outright stated by him, but Jesse's obviously the one who's supposed to carry on Walt's legacy as Heisenberg after he's gone. e: It's extremely weird to claim that Mike's rant to Walt was meant to be in reference to Walt's fondness for Jesse and his belief in Jesse's potential--the exact things which Mike himself came to feel about Jesse. quote:There is no reason to think that Elliot and Gretchen's money would not have been enough and that they wouldn't have helped out Walt's family after he died. Nothing in the show indicates this and there's a simpler, more direct explanation that the show's text does support. The show makes it pretty clear that Walt could have easily chosen the charity path if not for his impotent ego trip. You'll find no disagreement from me here. But that's not what Mike's rant was about. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 22:25
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-Blackadder- posted:
Gretchen and Elliot are portrayed as almost entirely selfless and faultless to the point where its clear that the writers intended them to be a perfect olive branch for Walt. Its just that his ego gets in the way and he more or less tells them to gently caress off because he feels that their offer humiliates him in some way.
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May 5, 2017 22:28
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There's a place in WV where people with Chuck's mental illness move to get away from electricity, WiFi, and phone signals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQEGPATQe5s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bank_Telescope
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May 5, 2017 22:57
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:To add to that, I think I mentioned before how my dad won't watch it because he knows it's about the tragic and violent downfall if a family man who makes poor decisions. He doesn't see entertainment in that, and that's fair. What if you tell them the man doesn't regret it for a second at the end, because I don't think he did. It's the story about a man diagnosed with a terminal illness who found a way to have fun and live life. He turned from a wimpy chemistry teacher into a awesome badass and he provided for his family. Colonel Whitey posted:I think Jesse basically gave up on his revenge plans against Hank when Hank got shot by the twins. His reaction as he's leaving the hospital and sees Hank being carted in indicates this, though it's fairly subtle. Jesse gave up his revenge plans before that when he made to deal to be Walt's partner. They tell Hank that Jesse dropped the charges for some reason. Then he gets shot by the twins in the next scene. some bust on that guy fucked around with this message at 23:02 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 22:58
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Bert Roberge posted:There's a place in WV where people with Chuck's mental illness move to get away from electricity, WiFi, and phone signals …much to the chagrin of the natives.
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May 5, 2017 23:19
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some guy on the bus posted:What if you tell them the man doesn't regret it for a second at the end, because I don't think he did. It's the story about a man diagnosed with a terminal illness who found a way to have fun and live life. He turned from a wimpy chemistry teacher into a awesome badass and he provided for his family. The part where junior is holding a knife at him, defending his mom from her husband, and then said husband goes and (Even temporarily) kidnaps his own daughter, all while his brother in law lay dead and crudely buried in the New Mexico desert seems to contradict you here.
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May 5, 2017 23:20
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:The part where junior is holding a knife at him, defending his mom from her husband, and then said husband goes and (Even temporarily) kidnaps his own daughter, all while his brother in law lay dead and crudely buried in the New Mexico desert seems to contradict you here. But the show doesn't end there. He does die with a smile on his face after finding a way to get money to his family, saving Jesse, and admitting to Skyler that he did it all because he liked it, he was good at it, and he was alive.
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May 5, 2017 23:36
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I miss when this show was about Jimmy and he's moral turn rather than this boring cartel poo poo we had to endure on Breaking Bad too. All these people die and their characters remain inflexible. This show was much better without Gus and would probably of been better without Mike at all.
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May 6, 2017 00:02
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I actually really like the mike and gus stuff, but the show has definitely shifted plot priorities in a way that wasn't anticipated back in season one, which makes the overall narrative feel askew in a way I don't like. And I've always loved BCS's pacing in general, but this season is definitely even slower than season one, by quite a bit. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 02:01 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 01:09
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Boris Galerkin posted:I don't remember Mike's role being the right hand man at all. I thought he was more of a loyal and dependable hired good that Gus would trust with his life, but not right hand man material. Calling him a right hand man implies some sort of autonomous dynasty. I don't remember Mike being ever involved with the business other than "protection." Mike was definitely more than protection. He refers to the workers along Gus's procurement and distribution network as "his guys", and he gave unsolicited advice about how to approach and deal with problems as they popped up. It also seems likely he could have kept Gus's empire running without him, as he was able to get Walt & Jesse hooked into what remained of Gus's supply line. Gus's empire dying with him is more a factor of Gus dying a loud and violent death while under law enforcement suspicion, as well as Mike not really being the type to be the king. Maybe right-hand man is an overstatement, but he was definitely a highly-trusted confidante.
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May 6, 2017 01:25
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Man, I wonder what Lyle thought of Gus getting blown up and having his secret life made public.
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May 6, 2017 01:39
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Gorn Myson posted:You don't need to hear the exact specifics though because the writers spell it out for you; Walter has two old friends who still love him and are incredibly sympathetic to his diagnosis. They are willing to offer him a high paying job at his former company, along with the health insurance because they want to help him out and also because they actually do still want him around, regardless of their divisions in the past. Even Hank promises Walter that he'll do his best to make sure that Skylar and Walt Jr are okay in the event of his death. Yeah, I thought it was pretty bold for them to bring in the Grey Matter offer so early in the show. It really establishes Walt's motivation isn't just "provide for my family and keep myself alive," instead it includes "have fun, retain my pride and show up everyone who ever held me down." Remember that Walt gets that offer after almost being killed by drug dealers, killing one with poison gas and having to kill the other with his own hands while getting shivved in the leg, and cleaning up human soup. Even then he's like "No, I'm gonna ride this whole Meth thing out." It actually really served a good purpose because without him turning down that offer and seeing his pride out in the open, why Walt isn't scared off from keeping down the drug path when so much insanely traumatic poo poo happens to him right out of the gate would be a pretty major question, at least when you're going back and really thinking about things with the whole series to examine. It's also worth noting that Walt's on board for the Grey Matter job until he finds out it's built on mercifulness and kindheartedness, related to his diagnosis, and then he turns on it, so you also get the wrinkle that he's not completely insane and if someone had magic'd up a really lucrative job offer out of the blue from some strangers he would have taken it at that point in the series.
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May 6, 2017 02:09
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Holy poo poo, Chuck was Lenny on Laverne and Shirley I knew I'd seen him in Christopher Guest movies before but never made the connection to Lenny.
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May 6, 2017 03:09
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NowonSA posted:It's also worth noting that Walt's on board for the Grey Matter job until he finds out it's built on You know, depending on whose POV.
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May 6, 2017 03:40
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Are Don Eladio and the Don that Gus works for blood relations to the Salamancas? I assumed so but I don't think it's discussed. Tuco's abuelita would be Hector's mom and presumably Don Eladio would be... the same generation, roughly, as Tuco? So maybe Eladio is the son of an unmentioned elder brother of Hector's and thus the head honcho, and Tuco and the cousins are children of Hector's younger siblings? I dunno but I was trying to work this out today. Also, is Eladio being called "greek" just a joke about his name or is he supposed to actually be greek? As a texan, their spanish is funny. I'm not fluent enough to tell whether it's "bad" exactly but they sure seem to be doing cartoony villain voices. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 03:51 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 03:43
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Grey Matter aside, there was a point where Walt had enough money to pay for cancer treatment, plus college for both kids, plus a nice cash nest egg for retirement. That moment (regardless of what actions Walt had taken at that point) was when Walt broke bad IMHO.
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May 6, 2017 04:45
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