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hail satan
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May 5, 2017 19:43
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goddamnit sagebrush and fishmech
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May 5, 2017 19:43
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its the sentiment that counts 
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May 5, 2017 19:47
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no, he's dissecting a precise claim made on the KS about what they're doing:quote:The 35x60x5mm battery lithium-metal able to heat 25ml of coffee from 15/20 degree up to 50/60 degree will happen in an estimated time between 5 and 8 seconds. fish you've got zero ground to be going at sage over this, the KS claimed to do this and he's speaking directly to it. there's no "oh if they ACTUALLY did espresso," as a wholly separate failure from defying the laws of physics their warmed-over brew does not conform to the strict italian definition of espresso. that you've managed to conflate the two, separate, failures does not reflect on sage now here's a retro kickstarter for y'all, some young traitorous upstarts left a good, honest company and tried to pitch some fancy new technology: https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-77.pdf look at some of this "BUT WE'LL MAKE IT UP IN VOLUME" garbage: quote:Finally, there is no technical reason why CMOS prices cannot approach present day TTL prices as sales vol- ume and manufacturing experience increase. So, an engi- neer about to start a new design should compare the system level cost of using CMOS or some other logic family. He may find that, even at today’s prices, CMOS is the most economi- cal choice.
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May 5, 2017 19:49
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BobHoward posted:this is a real weak and disappointing fishmeching you're not even technically correct
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May 5, 2017 20:02
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JawnV6 posted:no, he's dissecting a precise claim made on the KS about what they're doing: oh so he's mad about some throwaway line where they just made some numbers up, as opposed to the rest of the kickstarter where they just made some poo poo up. so he's an idiot, got it.
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May 5, 2017 20:04
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what if it uses its own battery plus the iphone battery
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May 5, 2017 20:11
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Juicero sport Hot edition
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May 5, 2017 20:11
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how the kickstarter people arrived at their numbers: guess how much space they have for a battery, guess how hot it'll be, guess how long heating a thing takes. assume nobody's really going to check that and if the product comes out and is different, just say "yeah we needed to change design"
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May 5, 2017 20:14
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fishmech posted:how the kickstarter people arrived at their numbers: guess how much space they have for a battery, guess how hot it'll be, guess how long heating a thing takes. assume nobody's really going to check that and if the product comes out and is different, just say "yeah we needed to change design" There are no particular risks in the realization of this idea because we have also developed a business plan that confirms its feasibility. Moreover, we are persuaded that to work hardly and to have good ideas is always a positive thing. If your support will go further our expectations, we are ready to do one's part; For this reason, we have already considered a prodution enlargement right to be ready for every chance of success. All this will be our future common plan ... it will be our own next challenge!
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May 5, 2017 20:15
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fishmech posted:oh so he's mad about some throwaway line where they just made some numbers up, as opposed to the rest of the kickstarter where they just made some poo poo up. so he's an idiot, got it.  it really looks like you read sage's mistake about the power coming from the iPhone, got confused with the addition of the italian espresso guidelines, and decided to poo poo up a few pages for no good reason
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May 5, 2017 20:17
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JawnV6 posted:at this point i'm not convinced you bothered to read the KS page before launching into this. did you even watch the video? this claim is repeated, it's central to the campaign: yeah they made up some numbers, why should we care? this actually started because sageidiot thought 3d printing your prototypes isnt allowed on kickstarter, since he's an idiot. literally noone who buys this will care when it turns out the random numbers they put up aren't what it actually takes, if they ever even deliver a thing. except sagebrush apparently, who thinks the Problem is that the random numbers they use don't work, instead of the problem being "put coffee in your phone case"
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May 5, 2017 20:37
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fishmech posted:yeah they made up some numbers, why should we care? this actually started because sageidiot thought 3d printing your prototypes isnt allowed on kickstarter, since he's an idiot.
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May 5, 2017 20:40
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this is a very entertaining argument over the physics of a phone case that dispenses coffee for some loving reason
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May 5, 2017 20:41
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fishmech posted:yeah they made up some numbers, why should we care? this actually started because sageidiot thought 3d printing your prototypes isnt allowed on kickstarter, since he's an idiot. no, it "actually" started when you aggressively misread a really impressive post where he laid out the physics on a specific claim of theirs, latched onto a throwaway comment at the end and needlessly conflated it with the capstone question meant to cover the bad physics, and are now backpedaling fast enough to brew coffee that's the joy of KS for me and others, seeing such blatantly impossible claims get through their minimal vetting AND the backer's attention when they take off. you're not helping the conversation, you're just being an rear end the loophole they're giving themselves is something about the special material in the resistor/heating element. so you could trickle-heat (lol) the element and have its mass at 45C (in your pocket, all day long) then when the "brew" moment comes, you don't need quite as much power from the battery in such a short time. so magic metal + supercap + magic battery... and I still can't make it all add up
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May 5, 2017 20:45
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HAIL eSATA-n posted:this is a very entertaining argument over the physics of a phone case that dispenses coffee for some loving reason good thread title
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May 5, 2017 20:53
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JawnV6 posted:no, it "actually" started when you aggressively misread a really impressive post where he laid out the physics on a specific claim of theirs, latched onto a throwaway comment at the end and needlessly conflated it with the capstone question meant to cover the bad physics, and are now backpedaling fast enough to brew coffee cool thing you made up, but it was actually sagebrush thinking 3d prints are illegal for prototypes and then attempting to backpedal to something to prove its violating kickstarter rules the loophole they're giving themselves is that noone buying the coffee smartphone case is going to carefully check the time it takes to make coffee or whatever, hence why they just made up some numbers. please continue melting down over how an entire stupid idea has subsidiary stupid ideas though
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May 5, 2017 20:56
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fishmech posted:cool thing you made up, but it was actually sagebrush thinking 3d prints are illegal for prototypes and then attempting to backpedal to something to prove its violating kickstarter rules shut up nerd
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May 5, 2017 21:06
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Even in the bizarro world where 25g of coffee heated to satisfaction is possible, thats still less than a 1 oz shot glass full of coffee. You'd pretty much have to start on wednesday in order to fill your big rear end I <3 MONDAYS cup for the start of the week
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May 5, 2017 21:16
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what is this a cup of coffee for ants - derek zoolander
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May 5, 2017 21:37
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Fart.Bleed.Repeat. posted:Even in the bizarro world where 25g of coffee heated to satisfaction is possible, thats still less than a 1 oz shot glass full of coffee. You'd pretty much have to start on wednesday in order to fill your big rear end I <3 MONDAYS cup for the start of the week 25g is a standard shot of espresso tho
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May 5, 2017 23:12
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Cocoa Crispies posted:shut up nerd this should automatically be posted after every post in yospos
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May 5, 2017 23:22
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HAIL eSATA-n posted:this should automatically be posted after every post in yospos
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May 5, 2017 23:25
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anthonypants posted:shut up nerd
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May 5, 2017 23:29
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working great so far
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May 5, 2017 23:31
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Sagebrush posted:the stuff they have would be fine for a conceptual product in a second-year design studio, where the point is to have the student work through a design process and build a representational model to evaluate form and fit and not really delve into engineering questions. i don't know what kickstarter expects i guess but they are nowhere near what even a layman would call a "working prototype" so i saw a lot of Model Solutions products, to the point where I could guess just based on the box. is that the kind of thing some rich student could order if their crafting wasn't up to snuff? or is the whole point to make it yourself and it'd be cheating to use them?
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May 6, 2017 00:20
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I'm on a kickstarter where the guy kept making excuses and delaying for like 2 years and now seems to finally have abandoned it for good and people keep raging out in comments and posting personal poo poo about where he lives and how he's an alcoholic and basically the first and last kickstarter I ever tried out is some awful Jerry Springer hellscape
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May 6, 2017 02:37
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shut up fishmech, you're wrong
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May 6, 2017 03:46
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fishmech posted:oh so he's mad about some throwaway line where they just made some numbers up, as opposed to the rest of the kickstarter where they just made some poo poo up. so he's an idiot, got it. https://twitter.com/dril/status/134787490526658561
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May 6, 2017 03:49
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JawnV6 posted:oh, meant to ask about this. the startup incubator i used to work with split things into 'works like' and 'looks like' models, like it's fine if you can't converge the two but you want something to put in front of humans and a separate engineering test vehicle. engineering-centric folks would balk at the ID one, but still get shocked when for example someone would pick up a brick and manage to use it "wrong" consistently splitting your prototypes into "looks like" and "works like" variants is totally normal and expected in the design process like say you're designing, i dunno, a new kind of exercise bike. at an early stage you want to figure out the general mechanical layout of the system and verify that it's ergonomically and mechanically viable. but it's still early phases and you can't waste the time and money making a bunch of cnc'd aluminum parts and welded pipe frames and such when you haven't even tested the basic concept. so you get some bicycle parts and 2x4s and make a chunky wooden model that has the key human-interface components (seat, pedals, bars) in the right places, that's strong enough to hold up when someone sits on it, but it only took you a week in the shop and 200 bucks instead of months and tens of thousands. meanwhile, you start using your killer sketching skills and conceptualize the look of the finished product. you design it to use all kinds of sweet organic forms and fancy billet aluminum pieces and custom bent tubing and stuff. but machining aluminum is expensive and bending tubes is hard. so you make a full-scale model that looks real, but it's still made of wood sanded and painted to look like glossy plastic, and heat-bent black ABS pipe standing in for metal tubing, and 3D printed things spray-painted silver to look like the fancy billet parts. it can't stand up to use -- indeed it's probably not functional at all -- but it looks the part and gets people excited and the other designers can critique the form and so on. when you bring people in for user testing, you say "ok, this is what it's going to look like, what do you think" and get their feedback, then "alright, now sit on this mechanical prototype and tell us how it feels." i'm simplifying that a bit, even -- sometimes you'll have pure mechanical prototypes that cannot be used without instruction (your brick example), and sometimes you'll have UX/ergonomics/affordance prototypes where you give it to the user and see what they do -- even the way they initially grasp some unfamiliar object when picking it up can give you tons of information -- and sometimes you'll have pure aesthetic models where you just ask people if it looks cool or swooshy or friendly or if they like the color or w/e. now ideally you've got confirmation that the design is mostly good and the mechanicals are mostly workable, and there isn't any huge problem that would require starting over. so you can start buttoning down specific features, making decisions about some materials, dimensions, manufacturing processes, etc. using the information from your first round of testing, you refine and iterate, and build another set of prototypes that are more accurate (to the intended production model) than the first ones. maybe you do get a few billet parts machined this time around so you can stress-test them. maybe you weld up a tube frame for the appearance model but the body panels are still painted wood. maybe you get the first run of a circuit board fabbed so you can start testing the electronics. the process continues in a loop like that, getting closer and closer to the "real thing", until you either decide that the design's perfect (only very rare and elite design studios have that privilege) or you run out of time or money and have to ship (everyone else). so yes, it's totally normal at an early stage to have a shiny plastic model that doesn't do anything but looks like what you want the thing to look like, and a real hacky looking thing with bolts and screws and wires sticking out everywhere that demonstrates how it works. these kicksharter guys have the first one, sort of -- they didn't even paint their 3d printed models, just left them the raw nylon -- but i didn't see any indication that they'd built a works-like model, that would at least show that they can heat up the coffee in the time they claim, that their cartridge-puncturing system works as described, etc. I assumed that was a site requirement, since to me a looks-like prototype of this sort of product, where the intended appearance is "a flat, unadorned plastic thing" and all the important functionality is internal, is like just barely above a rendering in terms of utility. i gotta cut this off cause i can do  forever cause again this is like my literal career and all but yea that's why you have all kinds of different prototypes for different purposes
Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 04:23 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 04:03
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JawnV6 posted:so i saw a lot of Model Solutions products, to the point where I could guess just based on the box. is that the kind of thing some rich student could order if their crafting wasn't up to snuff? or is the whole point to make it yourself and it'd be cheating to use them? oh lol and with all that sperging i didn't even address this yes, i have had students who just ordered their models from a model shop, and i went to school with a few people like that as well. whether it's cheating depends on the lesson goal. i'd certainly fail a student in a lab class if they hired a service to do the work for them, because the whole point of the lab is to experience the process yourself and understand the ramifications that process will have for the design of the part. like if you design a part to be 3-axis CNC machined and it's got overhangs and you have to set up the toolpaths yourself, it's immediately obvious how you screwed up and why you can't make parts like that if the process is CNC machining. if it's for a studio class...well...the idea in those classes is to have the model and use it for testing, to refine the design. how you made the model isn't as important. i would always prefer that a student do the work themselves, but sometimes it's reasonable to farm something out (e.g. if you need a huge water-jet-cut metal part, complex TIG welding that you don't have the skills to pull off, etc.). farming out the entire model is usually technically allowed, but not encouraged, and imo lame as hell. when i was in school one of the other students was the son of some wealthy car dealer and when it came time for his thesis project, he built a solidworks model of the whole thing, sent the plans to a fabricator to have the pieces cut, took those parts to a welder to have them professionally assembled, and dropped it off at the powder-coater and went skiing for a week, while the rest of us were in the shops 18 hours a day. i think he spent like $4000 on it while most people's models probably cost a tenth of that, and the fit and finish was amazing. (the design itself was still just mediocre, ofc). nobody liked him very much. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 04:19 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 04:14
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Sagebrush posted:when i was in school one of the other students was the son of some wealthy car dealer and when it came time for his thesis project, he built a solidworks model of the whole thing, sent the plans to a fabricator to have the pieces cut, took those parts to a welder to have them professionally assembled, and dropped it off at the powder-coater and went skiing for a week, while the rest of us were in the shops 18 hours a day. i think he spent like $4000 on it while most people's models probably cost a tenth of that, and the fit and finish was amazing. (the design itself was still just mediocre, ofc).
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May 6, 2017 04:22
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yeah, he did fine. but the critique of that guy's project was the only time that i can recall the professor, who was the nicest and most forgiving guy imaginable, having a tinge of sarcasm in his voice. "well, your model looks great" 
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May 6, 2017 04:27
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Sagebrush posted:splitting your prototypes into "looks like" and "works like" variants is totally normal and expected in the design process sorry, you're wrong. fishmech knows best.
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May 6, 2017 06:57
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1850927902/every-day-tray-edt finally, a tray to hold all your dumb kickstarter gadgets
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May 6, 2017 20:41
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fishmech posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1850927902/every-day-tray-edt https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=valet+tray
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May 6, 2017 20:44
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sorry i need a tray specific to my every day carry needs
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May 6, 2017 21:21
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumpsterfishmech posted:finally, a tray to hold all your dumb kickstarter gadgets
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May 6, 2017 23:38
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actually has there been a smart bin yet? because it's easy to imagine the pitch
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May 6, 2017 23:54
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:actually has there been a smart bin yet? because it's easy to imagine the pitch I can imagine
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May 6, 2017 23:57
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