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gammafunk posted:What undermined people saying boulder beetles should have stayed is that the monster was horribly designed. Its main gimmick functioned to make the monster disappear from LOS. The blink frog blinks.
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May 5, 2017 18:45
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Samog posted:The blink frog blinks. removed or maybe change it to controlled blink. they can flee when they get under half hp and come back once they are feeling better Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 18:58 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 18:52
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A whole pack of Prince Ribbit
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May 5, 2017 19:22
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Shame on you forgetting the lowly Imp that does approximately the same thing. Or a Phantom. 
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May 5, 2017 19:32
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Or a bat.
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May 5, 2017 19:41
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Or Unseen Horrors.
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May 5, 2017 19:51
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ITT several monsters are mentioned that ruin gammafunk's argument. Not ITT gammafunk realizing that the statement was silly and changing their mind.
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May 5, 2017 19:54
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Sometimes Trog pulls though. My second gift on my new MiBe, who I geared towards maces and shields. Level 12, just entered the third floor of lair.code:He found a +5 slaying ring on D5 too. Already have a buckler and shield I've been working with. Ganked a MR hat off of Gastranook too. I am seeing good things in his future.
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May 5, 2017 20:13
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Filthy Monkey posted:Sometimes Trog pulls though. My second gift on my new MiBe, who I geared towards maces and shields. Level 12, just entered the third floor of lair. My condolences.
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May 5, 2017 20:29
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What is better to put points into these days for a heavy armor mintotaur headsmasher? Str or dex?FulsomFrank posted:My condolences. Filthy Monkey fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 20:36
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Filthy Monkey posted:What is better to put points into these days for a heavy armor mintotaur headsmasher? Str or dex? Either will work fine, I think if you're using shields and not all-runing I'd just get str.
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May 5, 2017 20:43
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STR reduces the penalty from armour encumbrance and thus reducing the EV lost from it while DEX directly influences the EV bonus gained from Dodging with a soft cap at 24. Rule of thumb is getting STR at least to the same level as the encumbrance rating because around that point is where it has the greatest effect in reducing the penalty. however with the really heavy ones more STR is still useful. Both stats influence SH (DEX being the only influence for bucklers, both equally for shields and STR more strongly for large shields) and the chance for auxiliary attacks (equal increase). STR slightly increases weapon damage, DEX slightly increases weapon accuracy. DEX does influence stealth but as you're a mighty moo-head clomping around the dungeon I doubt you really care about that. Hope the information helps.
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May 5, 2017 21:06
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Just started playing again after dropping the game when I got my first win (HoMo of Beogh) and I managed to get my second win in 3 tries with a GnSk. Gnolls are immensely fun and really work well with the jack of all trades playstyle. I'm thinking of going for my first >3 rune win. What's a good class/race combo for going later in the game and what are some general tips that you don't really learn on 3 rune games?
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May 5, 2017 22:03
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Minotaur of the shining one
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May 5, 2017 22:32
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All of my 15 runes have been with a Naga blaster. You'll want to end up with firestorm, necromutation, infestation, controlled blink, a good single target damage spell, and a bunch of the better buffs. Deep in extended I'd also gun for glaciate. People poo poo on necromutation in this thread, but you'll need to be dead to deal with the constant torment spam and malmutation that comes with extended.
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May 5, 2017 22:37
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Just popping in to claim my first win. After quite some games (*cough..350*) , I got better informed through the wiki and some helpfully youtubers. My MiBe's started clearing Lair and Orc. And then I managed to run away with my first rune, and then the second. The most scary part was going down to Vauls 5 for the final rune. Quafed a resist and popped two immolation scrolls. This was followed by increasingly nervous spacing through the walls of [more...] tekst whilst watching that green bar slowly disappear. Thought it would end right there. The firestorm died down, as did the sentinels. nerve wrecking that was. Zot 1-4 was surprisingly easy. Dungeon loot had only yielded one pip of rF, so I was nervous about fire orbs. In the end there were only three. What almost got me was a teleport trap in the enrtry of the " other" lung. Whill pulling baddies from one side, the noise atrackted mobs from the other side, and they were being teleported randomly. I had not noticed this yet and was running back to the stairs on low hp, and encountered the last fire orb and a litch blocking the path to the upstairs. Only four tiles to cover, but no more blink scrolls or resist potions left in the bag. Quafed haste and prayed to Trog for some luck. I think I made it out with 24hp left. The orb run itself was uneventful, only one panlord, and 7 haste potions left everyone in the dust. Glorious victory! Finally!
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May 5, 2017 23:01
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tweet my meat posted:I'm thinking of going for my first >3 rune win. What's a good class/race combo for going later in the game and what are some general tips that you don't really learn on 3 rune games? The classic melee is a axe minotaur that starts with Oka or Trog and swaps to TSO before Crypt. TSO gives hp on kills, has boss summons that TSO will extend, has rn+++, the holy aura (great accuracy and no need for sinv), and once you get high invoke the two divine powers are very good. You have to watch out for tormentors and it would be good to have either a bow/xbow of penet or a pile of javs of pen with the appropriate skill to take care of problematically placed smiters and tormentors. The classic caster is a deep elf of vehumet that gets necromutation (and probably borgnors and/or ddoor) for extended. This is probably the easiest as you have plenty of reset buttons and firestorm solves a lot of problems. You have to watch out for holy creatures or anything that casts dispel undead as a lich and you have to remember you can't drink potions so you better have a strong answer to confuse. BTW, I finally got a oneandwon on a Troll - won my first try on this smashing TrIE: code:Okawaru is very strong for unarmed as 5 pts of unarmed is +5 base damage and also a significant reduction in delay. Oka is also good with species with low apts as Heroism is a straight +5 to skills - going from 10 fighting/dodging/armor to 15 is lifesaving with a Troll. Unarmed also lets you have high base damage and use a shield. Just have Felid left - that FeFE was good, but I just didn't find OOD or Repel missiles in time. I dunno how much EV you need without rmsl but 29 was not enough.
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May 5, 2017 23:55
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So I've got a white DrIE on Berotato 0.18 at the moment and I'm just at the point where tension is high & I usually make a series of dumb mistakes & die. Farthest I've gotten was a GrEE and a MiFi to Depths, lost the first trying to Shatter dragons and the second to hubris. (I think it was the Depths, the really hard part where you go down the stairs and there are enemies EVERYWHERE) Dunno if I need advice or encouragement, but I figure I'm more likely to find either here than the Tavern. Dump follows: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Cottonwoods/Cottonwoods.txt e: Forgot to mention I feel like I've had pretty bad luck with the Floorgod this game, but luckily casters don't seem to rely on gear as much as melee. I was training Air for Tornado before Vehumet gifted knowledge of Glaciate very recently, but the next goal is Orb of Destruction. Probably need to keep some notes in front of me to remember how to get out of bad situations. Biggest issue I seem to have is not knowing the proper emergency sequence based on my available options. I can skill & fight effectively through enough of the game that when the poo poo hits the fan I'm completely lost & that is the primary area in which my skills need to grow. myDad fucked around with this message at 00:16 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 00:11
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Are there any slightly more gimmicky builds that can hold their own in the lategame? My only wins are an Orc Jesus and a Gnoll Skald mostly because I don't like traditional gameplay where I'm basically just a standard blaster/fighter. I'm thinking of going with a necromancer melee hybrid or something like that.
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May 6, 2017 00:19
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tweet my meat posted:Are there any slightly more gimmicky builds that can hold their own in the lategame? My only wins are an Orc Jesus and a Gnoll Skald mostly because I don't like traditional gameplay where I'm basically just a standard blaster/fighter. I'm thinking of going with a necromancer melee hybrid or something like that. Sure, Necromancer melee works great. Take Kiku, pain brand a decent weapon, and use Death Channel (fun) or Simulacrum (great) to make your hordes as needed. It's hard to reach lategame and not be able to win, but if your normal attacks are weak (short blades, some one-handers) you may need to use might/berserk for tough foes and don't pick such fights if you don't have to.
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May 6, 2017 00:56
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Floodkiller posted:Has there been any discussion on potentially extending the length of development for this version, or even just skipping this release date and waiting another 6 months? We don't have some "changelog target" for our releases, but certainly this release easily meats the definition of "add more than you take away". Making a new release feel like a new game compared to the previous one is not achievable as a goal if you want any kind of regularity to releases in a project made by volunteers. A brand new species, ogres reworked, wand rework, mutation potions changes, along with various other significant changes is more than enough for a release. Just like most other players, I don't like every single change, but 0.20 definitely feels like a better game to me compared to 0.19. Also, LOL at "Hi I think I found a logical fallacy: blink is actually the same thing as boulder beetle rolling". gammafunk fucked around with this message at 01:23 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 01:21
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Scientists marvel as local poster discovers only thing crawl dev isn't willing to be overly reductive about
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May 6, 2017 02:56
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gammafunk posted:Its main gimmick functioned to make the monster disappear from LOS. But literally your exact words could describe melee-only blinking monsters such as crimson imps, phantoms, and blink frogs. Explain the difference. 
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May 6, 2017 03:11
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What do you do if you're in danger of starving? (bought all food from Orc & 2 rations left)
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May 6, 2017 03:36
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1: Eat monsters (Chop them up first) 2: Use fewer hunger abilities (or get more intelligence and spellcasting for spells) 3: Explore more, food spawns often enough to keep you fed
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May 6, 2017 03:47
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Joke option, scum abyss/pan.
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May 6, 2017 03:58
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Even if we send "blink is boulder beetle rolling" all of our meme energy, it won't save our beloved beetles from extinction. They're a lair monster whose defining gimmick is a worse version of blink! And so they were on all sorts of lists of "worst monster designs" people had made over the years, rip in peace. Maybe some day someone out there will make a patch with a version that's somehow both hilarious and functional, we'll just have to hope.
gammafunk fucked around with this message at 04:18 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 04:14
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i'm not even that invested in boulder beetles, i just want you to explain the difference, because i don't see a meaningful one
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May 6, 2017 04:17
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I decided to go through the 0.20 changelog (not all 1000 or so commits, so please point out anything I'm missing), cutting out anything most players won't notice or care about (like development guides) and bolding on what I personally feel are significant changes that would give 0.20 a different feel compared to 0.19 (regardless of opinions on said changes or feelings): -Added barachians -Added noise meter -Added Deep Dwarf innate heal ability -Added displayed monster potential damage/melee attacks -Added stash search duplicate hiding -Added scarves (cloak slot, 0 AC, 4 egos) - Added Maxwell's Thermic Engine -Added Ratskin cloak summons rats ability -Merge all mutation potions into a single potion of mutation -Draconian callers converted to stormcallers (added Upheaval) -Added acid dragons -Added Poisonous Vapors spell -Added Ignition spell -Slime vault walls breach instead of disappear -Tomb has hatches instead of stairs -Ogre aptitude changes -Mummy aptitude change -Loud noises no longer break mesmerize or fear -Exhaustion separation -TSO conduct changes -Species selection menu reorganized -Draining display update -Convert rod of clouds and rod of scattershot to wands -Convert lightning rod to evocable -Better evocations scaling for wands -No zapping wands during confusion -Disintegration no longer destroys walls -Digging destroys statues -Stat and name changes (4 stat changes, 3 name changes) -Food takes one turn to eat -GSC has lower delay -Two headed ogres buffed -Draining affects monster MR -Larger exp reward from uniques -Maurice and Ijyb always have wands -Draconian ghosts don't get negative energy breath -Spell schools updated on some spells -Spells moved around various spellbooks -Sandblast only works with stones, consumes stones from inventory -Confusing touch less effective -Removed Deep Dwarf recharge skill -Removed High elves -Removed Mottled draconians (player) -Removed Wand of hasting -Removed Wand of heal wounds -Removed Wand of teleportation -Removed Wand of slowing -Removed Rod of inaccuracy -Removed Rod of ignition -Removed Rod of shadows -Removed Disc of storms -Removed Hat of the High Council -Removed Scimitar of Flaming Death -Removed Dagger of Chilly Death -Removed Food type removals (pizza, beef jerky) -Removed Mottled dragons -Removed Mottled draconians (monster) -Removed Draconian zealots -Removed Hill giants -Removed Delayed Fireball spell -Removed Poisonous Cloud spell -Removed Repel Missiles spell This list is excluding Gnolls and Wu Jian unless they are confirmed for addition before feature freeze. Thus, .20 has about 72 changes, with a subjective opinion that 33 are significant for the version's defining image. As a comparison to the two most recent changelogs (again, not going through every single commit, and same rules about subjective opinion for significance): -0.19 has about 139 changes, with a subjective opinion that 98 were significant for that version's defining image. -0.18 has about 141 changes, with a subjective opinion that 102 were significant for that version's defining image. This is what I mean in the sense that 0.20 is very sparse. It's okay to be sparse if you just push something like a bugfix release (because I know there was a ton of work behind the scenes for backend and bug fixing), but it doesn't really look good on a full version. Although I'm sure the dev team doesn't care about this part, it also brings a removal of a mechanic that players like to the forefront when they don't really have much else to be excited about. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 04:28 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 04:25
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This "number of changes of this arbitrary type is below this arbitrary cutoff N" thing is just something you've made up. Adding a new species is hardly the same significance as removing a monster, and it's really silly to try to make releases based on weird statistics like these across versions. Also LOL that removing DD wand recharging is significant but their self-healing ability is not, and there's some interesting accounting going on when counting wand/rod changes as well. We base the release on how we feel overall about the stability/readiness of the version and also based on timing. We'll look at things like number of commits as an extremely rough guide for when enough changes have probably built up for a release, but it's only a guide. Generally there are dozens of significant new features and changes after 6 months of development, more than enough to give people something new to try.
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May 6, 2017 04:45
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add boulder beetles back but as a race with the high elf aptitudes also you can only move by rolling also they're crabs
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May 6, 2017 04:48
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gammafunk posted:We don't have some "changelog target" for our releases, but certainly this release easily meets the definition of "add more than you take gamma why can't you include your current .splatratio with your posts so I can tell whether or not I should respect your opinion as a developer? It only takes just a little extra effort. I wrote much a longer post that came down to this: a) The crawl devs are for the most part the sort of critical thinkers and heavy lifters that are invaluable on any team. b) Crawl was initially a "everything in the pot" product which is something that's fun to make version 0.1 of then a nightmare to maintain. c) A lot of goons would rather be mad at a) than recognize b). There was a metric fuckton of bugfix and quality of life work done the last two releases. IMO, Crawl does not need better devs, it needs a few more mad poets and maybe a couple bulldozers.
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May 6, 2017 05:03
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gammafunk posted:This "number of changes of this arbitrary type is below this arbitrary cutoff N" thing is just something you've made up. Adding a new species is hardly the same significance as removing a monster, and it's really silly to try to make releases based on weird statistics like these across versions. Also LOL that removing DD wand recharging is significant but their self-healing ability is not, and there's some interesting accounting going on when counting wand/rod changes as well. I'm not trying to point out that the number of changes was below an arbitrary cutoff. I was merely showing that there were significantly less changes provided in the changelog in this version compared to other versions. As you state and as I have also stated, this isn't necessarily indicative of how much effort has gone into a release: commits are a better indicator, but gently caress if I'm going to read through 1096 commits compared to a changelog that the devs provide to players to insist that these are the important things. DD self-healing ability wasn't a significant change in my opinion because they always had a wand of healing with wand recharging before, so the base mechanic of a self-heal at game start hasn't changed (even if the removal of wand of healing is a significant for other species), while losing the ability to recharge other wands is a significant change for them (especially since some powerful rods have been converted into wands). A species may represent a larger amount of effort to implement, but I can also point to 0.19 and 0.18 also having projects like god additions that compare to a species addition, and they had equal or more of them. Also, you can argue about accounting being fishy for splitting up wands/rods as I did, but it's also equally fishy with that argument that I counted scarves four times (once for each potential ego). If you and others on the dev team have decided that there's enough commits and work to push a new version, then it's not like myself or anyone really has a right or privilege to do so. I'm not expecting to be able to change your process by writing stuff out on a comedy forum, I'm just pointing out my observations and asking a question. Edit: VVV MOTD on the Discord server good enough? Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 05:23 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 05:11
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OP please change thread title to Crawl .20: I counted scarves four times
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May 6, 2017 05:18
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a ton of bugfix, ui overhaul, and general playability work has gone into the last few versions that has been incredible; i know i personally have complimented this multiple times, but you don't get a lot of mileage or discussion out of "this part of the thing you're doing is great, keep it up" and it comes alongside a ton of balance changes, modifications and removals that in my opinion have made the game much less enjoyable, which tend to be the kind of things that people will have stronger opinions about and will talk about longer.
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May 6, 2017 05:22
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Araganzar posted:There was a metric fuckton of bugfix and quality of life work done the last two releases. IMO, Crawl does not need better devs, it needs a few more mad poets and maybe a couple bulldozers. If I can step back from Official Dev Position for a moment, I actually do agree with this perspective. However ... Grunt has been retired for multiple versions now, though, and PleasingFungus seemingly has retired to work on his own projects and his own life. DracoOmega and regret-index have been burned out on the project for a long, long time now. There's been more but they've been long, long before my time. And I am not nearly insane enough (or skilled enough at coding) to want to wrestle with the codebase to push through all my ideas, which amount to over three hundred lines of crawl-todo.txt. I'm also, ideally, much more of a "centrist" re the add/remove philosophy than I've had to be in practice to try to balance out the other designers. Dream sheep were something I'd mulled over for a while, and they seem to have been an instant success -- this is the sort of approach I prefer in my design. The sort of developer who wants to add many things and drat the consequences tend to have short lifespans in general and the game's community has increasingly developed a culture of "perfectionism" (not the best word for it, but will have to do for now) which tends to drive off these idealistic people and into their own side projects and experiments. This is not something that I think we can really blame anyone in particular about, but rather a natural consequence of Crawl being almost 20 years old in a few months. The people who have stuck with it this long are going to be people who know the game inside out, the flaws and pitfalls, the strong points of the game. This leads into the issue that such an old game has an incredibly established ethos and standard that has to be met for most additions. Over time this standard becomes higher and higher and higher, which makes adding things increasingly difficult. For instance, I have a few new wizlabs that I've been picking at on and off (and I am considering just making Wizlab a guaranteed branch in the game). If this was the single digit version days then I could probably just push these as-is no problem. But now that we have years of quality, that means I have to make sure that they aren't poo poo garbage which takes much longer and much more work to make sure that they meet the established standard of quality.
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May 6, 2017 05:43
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Also, Floodkiller missed gammafunk's teleporter additions. That is the sort of mechanical improvement that takes a while to really see the impact thereof but is actually really valuable. The changes to Tomb (which Floodkiller did include) also open the door for further changes and improvements to Tomb, and even possibly to postgame in general. There is a lot of groundwork being laid for future changes, some of which are major IMO. I do recognize, though, that it's difficult for players to get excited about these insider-baseball shifts until they can start seeing tangible impacts.
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May 6, 2017 05:47
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Don't act like moving the stairs on Tomb is a meaningful, positive change. All its doing is making it more loving tedious because the enemies are still mummy mummy mummy mummy mummy. If anything should of been changed it should of been that but hey its easier to just nerf the popular Tomb strategy (stairdancing) rather than address why people did it so much (because unavoidable death curses and torment/smite spam).
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May 6, 2017 05:53
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seeing the work of someone who does have a strong vision and executes it in an interesting way get torn up for seemingly-arbitrary "doesn't adhere to our specific idea of balance" reasons (WJC) in a game where trog and okawaru exists is probably pretty off-putting to others who might want to get involved, also
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May 6, 2017 05:57
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Current state of new Tomb feels like a Tomb-themed Ziggurat floor. Stairdancing was often used in tandem with specific builds and made it a tricky but sometimes viable 3rd rune (or 4th/5th) which I think is one of the redeeming qualities of the branch. Right now it's being solidified into 15-rune territory and I don't think that's a good thing. Sure, it's *possible* you can take the idea of fixed destination hatches and make it fun/interesting, but right now I can't see where this is going and I'd (reluctantly) prefer old Tomb.
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May 6, 2017 06:12
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