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Fleta Mcgurn posted:You have a point. Either way, it's wish fulfillment for emotionally simple idiots. I was always really irritated because for all the awful of the last book there's the existential terror of being immortal in their "perfect piece of forever" (  ) and watching the child that she didn't think she could have grow to full adulthood in the space of seven years, which is like a nanosecond to Bella now. I'd think the fond, bittersweet nostalgia most parents have watching their kids grow up be cut in third and potentially barely remembered (Meyer-pires are essentially frozen in whatever mental state/personality they were in when turned) would be interesting to explore, but because Meyer is queen of totally wasted potential she's clueless about what she wrote versus what she *got.*
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May 7, 2017 04:33
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The first Twilight book is, at first, her detailing in excruciating detail her first days at school. Every class, what they did in the class, what her teachers were like, what books she took out of her backpack....gently caress, no wonder it was 500 pages or so long. And apparently the P.E. Coach had to devote two days to explain how badminton worked.
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May 7, 2017 13:33
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Which is the one that had a whole bunch of blank pages in the middle to show how sad the narrator was?
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May 7, 2017 15:26
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Wheat Loaf posted:Which is the one that had a whole bunch of blank pages in the middle to show how sad the narrator was? The second one, after Edward left Bella IIRC
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May 7, 2017 15:41
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Conservative kook Ben Shapiro wrote a novel. Ah yes, Ben "800 million Muslims are terrorists" Shapiro.
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May 7, 2017 18:56
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gradenko_2000 posted:The second one, after Edward left Bella IIRC To be honest, I'm not sure if that's somewhat clever or very stupid. My inclination is the latter but I feel like there are other authors who would have been praised for doing something like that. 
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May 7, 2017 19:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:To be honest, I'm not sure if that's somewhat clever or very stupid. My inclination is the latter but I feel like there are other authors who would have been praised for doing something like that. Other authors have greater skill than Meyer ever had or will have. Four blank chapters implies that she doesn't give a single poo poo about her father, her werewolf boyfriend, her other friends at school, the rest of Edward's family, or her future. Although that makes sense when you read it as Bella being wholly obsessed with immortality and Edward just being a means to an end: being pretty, popular, and perfect forever.
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May 7, 2017 22:35
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:Ah yes, Ben "800 million Muslims are terrorists" Shapiro. How does this rank on the racism scale? Going from 1, 'We shot a brown person', to 10, 'We nuked all of the Middle East, genocided the entire region, salted the earth with salt and pork fat, paved it all over and put in a plaque detailing how Brown People suck and America is awesome'? I know I heard of a book that ran with that latter plot, but hell if I could remember.
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May 7, 2017 23:37
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Wheat Loaf posted:To be honest, I'm not sure if that's somewhat clever or very stupid. My inclination is the latter but I feel like there are other authors who would have been praised for doing something like that. I get where you're coming from that it sounds clever on its face, but as SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL said, the problem is that it implies Bella has literally nothing else in her life outside of Edward.
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May 7, 2017 23:42
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The thing that always bugged me the most about Twilight is they are/were so goddamn popular while also being absolutely terrible in every sense: plotted, written, messaged, everything. I mean, I understand it's not a book directed to or marketed to me, and I understand junk food writing, just some basic wish fulfillment for the dopamine hit, but if that kind of reading is a chocolate bar, then Twilight is an off brand hunk of questionable material claiming to be chocolate in some form that fell between the cracks of a convenience store's racks and was discovered two months after its expiry date. Yeah, you could eat it, but WHY WOULD YOU? And yet so many gobbled it up like it was one of those fancy Swiss chocolates. It goes beyond accounting for taste: it's almost like there's some meme woven into the book that seizes onto certain minds and forcibly converts them to nigh-on worshipping.
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May 8, 2017 00:29
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Wheat Loaf posted:Which is the one that had a whole bunch of blank pages in the middle to show how sad the narrator was? Wait, for real? I only read the series as a downloaded PDF because there was no way in hell I was paying for them (but I was curious). I'm really glad I missed the whole fad; I can tell that those books would have been A Huge Thing with my friends in middle school, if we'd had them in middle school. There is really very little good to say about that series. Bella is just so lovely and lame.
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May 8, 2017 00:49
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Cornwind Evil posted:The thing that always bugged me the most about Twilight is they are/were so goddamn popular while also being absolutely terrible in every sense: I ask the same thing about Fifty Shades of Grey, The Help, and everything by Dan Brown (who apparently has a new book coming out soon, can't wait to find out which poorly-researched historical conspiracy his Gary Stu will be investigating this time.)
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May 8, 2017 01:36
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Yeah, if you think Twilight is exceptionally poorly-written, you really haven't read enough trash literature. It's bad, and has its share of moments of transcendent badness, but it's pretty par for the course for this sort of thing.
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May 8, 2017 01:41
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Twilight would never have taken off if it didn't have cool covers.
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May 8, 2017 01:52
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Seriously, Twilight can't hold a candle to Fifty Shades when it comes to terrible writing.
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May 8, 2017 02:08
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FrozenVent posted:Seriously, Twilight can't hold a candle to Fifty Shades when it comes to terrible writing. Fifty shades is twilight fanfic so yeah duh
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May 8, 2017 02:08
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Tunicate posted:Fifty shades is twilight fanfic so yeah duh I despise EL James so much because she is the worst summation of 20 years of BNF internet wank. Snowqueen Icedragon my rear end. And Meyer is too "nice" to sue her for plagiarism. Antivehicular posted:Yeah, if you think Twilight is exceptionally poorly-written, you really haven't read enough trash literature. It's bad, and has its share of moments of transcendent badness, but it's pretty par for the course for this sort of thing. My understanding is Meyer originally wrote the story as two books, Twilight and "Eternal Dawn" (I think). When the first was a success the publisher asked for a trilogy, so New Moon was written and the second book split into two parts because it sold so well. New Moon is slightly better in terms of writing, grammar, etc. because it was made later.
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May 8, 2017 03:12
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Twilight was huge because it tapped into something like the erotic appeal of Anne Rice vampires in a way that's both accessible to 14-year old Mormon girls in Utah, and wouldn't put off their parents.
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May 8, 2017 03:42
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DStecks posted:Twilight was huge because it tapped into something like the erotic appeal of Anne Rice vampires in a way that's both accessible to 14-year old Mormon girls in Utah, and wouldn't put off their parents. The funny thing is that Twilight has more actual sex, if I remember correctly. Like people literally loving the house down. But maybe it you have thirtysomething wives, that seems plausible? VanSandman posted:Twilight would never have taken off if it didn't have cool covers. Those covers are legit pretty cool. FrozenVent posted:Seriously, Twilight can't hold a candle to Fifty Shades when it comes to terrible writing. Fitty Shadez made me so loving angry. I can't imagine someone being able to buff the muffin while looking at such bad prose. Dastardly unsexy. Plus, IIRC most of the first book is a sex contract? Most of my writing students can barely put together a coherent English sentence, and I would prefer to read a full ream of their work, because at least they've come by their linguistic shortcomings honestly. This woman is a native English speaker. For gently caress's sake.
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May 8, 2017 04:29
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I loved Twilight when I first read it, because I was a 13 year old girl and Edward was dreamy as all hell. Most 13 year old girls aren't terribly interested in how well written a piece of literature is, and I was no exception. Twilight was written well enough to hold up to the light examination that most readers subjected it to, and it was masterful at developing and using the concept of... sexless erotica, for lack of a better term. It was hot, it was sexy, and it was safe for teenaged girls and 40 year old moms to enjoy in its almost unique semi-erotic context. And it did a really good job at it! Look at the team Edward and team Jacob poo poo, it was all the rage in my middle school and high school. So I actually applaud twilight - not for its literary qualities, of which it has few and far between. But because it was accessible , safe erotica that normalized desire among women and was extraordinarily successful in doing so. It by no means stands up to any sort of serious examination and is super problematic in lots of ways in retrospect, but honestly? Success is a quality all on its own, and Twilight was ridiculously, comically successful.
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May 9, 2017 11:43
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Cat Army 
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Yeah but a a 40 year old male goon, I feel I must say
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May 9, 2017 11:58
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An important thing to remember about the Twilight books is that Stephanie Meyer had a strong Mormon upbringing which is why there is so much titillation in the books ('sexless erotica' is a good term, The Iron Rose). That's why Bella is so much more interested in getting married to her *perfect* guy and his amazing family and start having babies than she is interested in going to college and being her own person. For many people (young girls and lonely housewives mainly) it comes across as wonderful and romantic but to mostly everyone else it's extremely off putting.
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May 9, 2017 16:22
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Stephenie Meyer. I love that it's five e's.
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May 9, 2017 16:37
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The whitest of all names.
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May 9, 2017 17:05
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Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:The whitest of all names. I dunno, "Renesmee Carlie Cullen" is really in a league of its own for whiteness.
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May 9, 2017 18:50
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Stephenie Meyer. Because her father was Stephen and they just feminised the name by adding an ie, despite there already being a female form of Stephen. Although I like to think she has two younger sisters called Stephener and Stephenest.
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May 9, 2017 18:51
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Grenrow posted:I dunno, "Renesmee Carlie Cullen" is really in a league of its own for whiteness. It's the grandmothers', then grandfathers' names smashed together, which iirc is a common naming convention in some Mormon families. I've also read critiques from ex-Mormons who comment on how Edward is described in the same fashion Jospeh Smith is in the church, which to them came off as very weird.
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May 9, 2017 19:08
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:It's the grandmothers', then grandfathers' names smashed together, which iirc is a common naming convention in some Mormon families. I've also read critiques from ex-Mormons who comment on how Edward is described in the same fashion Jospeh Smith is in the church, which to them came off as very weird. I know you don't mean "pale white and sparkling" but that's all I can think about now.
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May 9, 2017 23:44
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:It's the grandmothers', then grandfathers' names smashed together, which iirc is a common naming convention in some Mormon families. I've also read critiques from ex-Mormons who comment on how Edward is described in the same fashion Jospeh Smith is in the church, which to them came off as very weird. People outside of Western culture presumably feel the same about every other protagonist of a major action movie being Jesus Christ
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May 10, 2017 00:48
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:I've also read critiques from ex-Mormons who comment on how Edward is described in the same fashion Jospeh Smith is in the church, which to them came off as very weird. Ooooh do you have a link? I am obsessed with Mormonism, both mainstream and FLDS. Would love to see analysis on this turdtome from a Mormon perspective.
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May 10, 2017 01:16
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Fleta Mcgurn posted:Ooooh do you have a link? I am obsessed with Mormonism, both mainstream and FLDS. Would love to see analysis on this turdtome from a Mormon perspective. I remembered the almost decade old sparkledammerung which was my first exposure to how bad Twilight was outside of my younger sisters telling me it was bad. It's very dated in terms of silly LJ writing and memes, but if you can get through that the author refers to the parallels in their growing up Mormon to how the Cullens behave (family game night aka Vampire Baseball, putting whether Bella should be turned or not up to a family vote) and concepts like fore-ordination and how that became the "imprinting" crap.
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May 10, 2017 02:45
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:I remembered the almost decade old sparkledammerung which was my first exposure to how bad Twilight was outside of my younger sisters telling me it was bad. It's very dated in terms of silly LJ writing and memes, but if you can get through that the author refers to the parallels in their growing up Mormon to how the Cullens behave (family game night aka Vampire Baseball, putting whether Bella should be turned or not up to a family vote) and concepts like fore-ordination and how that became the "imprinting" crap. Love it. Thank you!
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May 10, 2017 03:41
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I mean, I probably would have considered Mormonism if Joseph Smith read minds, killed deer with his bare hands to drink their blood, and turned to marble in the sun.
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May 10, 2017 04:56
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Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:I mean, I probably would have considered Mormonism if Joseph Smith read minds, killed deer with his bare hands to drink their blood, and turned to marble in the sun. Hat-based divine translation not impressive enough? Speaking of bad books, The Book of Mormon contains the sentence "like a river of water."  I read it once and and can never forget that ourobouros of a metaphor.
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May 11, 2017 01:13
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I don't know if it was this thread or something I heard someone else bring up somewhere else, but they said something akin to Bella's character was sort of written intentionally a bit incomplete so female readers would imprint themselves and their thoughts into the character in place of that content. Having never read Twilight, I'm not sure how accurate that is or not.
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May 11, 2017 05:18
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Fleta Mcgurn posted:Hat-based divine translation not impressive enough? My first thought was I don't remember that line from the songs. JediTalentAgent posted:I don't know if it was this thread or something I heard someone else bring up somewhere else, but they said something akin to Bella's character was sort of written intentionally a bit incomplete so female readers would imprint themselves and their thoughts into the character in place of that content. Having never read Twilight, I'm not sure how accurate that is or not.  First version of this I could find with a quick google.
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May 11, 2017 05:31
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JediTalentAgent posted:I don't know if it was this thread or something I heard someone else bring up somewhere else, but they said something akin to Bella's character was sort of written intentionally a bit incomplete so female readers would imprint themselves and their thoughts into the character in place of that content. Having never read Twilight, I'm not sure how accurate that is or not. This is an extremely common trait of lower-end literature aimed at kids and teens, really. "The protagonist is only loosely described so you can insert themselves in their place and enjoy the book as wish-fulfillment adventure" is at least half of the YA market and even more of lowbrow markets like Japanese light novels. It's a literary sin, but it existed well before Twilight and will continue long after it's forgotten.
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May 11, 2017 05:36
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Light novels are another level of absolutely abominable wannabe literature.
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May 11, 2017 05:45
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JediTalentAgent posted:I don't know if it was this thread or something I heard someone else bring up somewhere else, but they said something akin to Bella's character was sort of written intentionally a bit incomplete so female readers would imprint themselves and their thoughts into the character in place of that content. Having never read Twilight, I'm not sure how accurate that is or not. It is completely and totally accurate. I wanted to summarize what made Bella Swan a really bad protagonist, but I'd just be repeating what a better author has already written. So instead I'll just quote an excerpt from that author, Das Mervin, who did a very thorough takedown of the entire Twilight series chapter by chapter. This is her final summation of Bella's character: Das Mervin posted:To put it bluntly, Bella Swan is a Mary Sue. But that wouldn’t be fair to just sum it up like that, so let’s get down to brass tacks and state it in a better way—Bella Swan is an empty, shallow, very poor character. I have no grasp of her personality. I have no idea what her goals are, no idea what her ambitions are, no idea what her likes and dislikes are (outside of the obvious). She means nothing to me, because I do not know her. I have no idea what her motivations are for three-quarters of the stuff she does, and because I don’t know why she’s doing stuff, I don’t care if she succeeds or not. Of course, complaining that Bella is empty and has little characterization is pointless—because that’s how Meyer wrote her. She admitted it in the FAQ—she wanted to make sure that readers could step into her shoes, so she made her empty so you could better project your personality into her.
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May 11, 2017 06:17
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JediTalentAgent posted:I don't know if it was this thread or something I heard someone else bring up somewhere else, but they said something akin to Bella's character was sort of written intentionally a bit incomplete so female readers would imprint themselves and their thoughts into the character in place of that content. Having never read Twilight, I'm not sure how accurate that is or not. True, but Chrono Trigger did a much better job.
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May 11, 2017 06:41
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