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Kai Tave posted:If your team loses a fight, let's say that three or four of your team dies, and then your Hanzo scores a quick couple of headshots, he's scoring kills but they aren't really helping you much in a lot of cases. There are maps where that calculus can wind up benefiting you, like if you're on the attack on the first part of a map like King's Row where you have spawn advantage, but there are ways a character can get plenty of kills and still not contribute much just like there are ways to get gold medals in damage all the time without that number translating into anything useful. C'mon m8, you can construct that scenario for any character/role in the game. a player not working well with his team or a team not reacting to the picks a player gets or any possible permutation of teams not working well together is the foundation of quickplay. I think the real issue is serious ptsd from people getting owned by widowmakers and having the expectation of their teammates playing widow to do the same in all situations. someone just called ana a good example of a sniper class.
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May 7, 2017 21:51
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The main problem with bad snipers is that while they kill enemies perfectly fine (in relation to bad whatever else), they don't provide a meatshield for the enemy to shoot instead of you. Like I'm a really bad Zarya, but even though I'll bubble the wrong person 100% of the time there's a decent chance the enemy team will turn and start targeting me anyway, saving you regardless of my incompetence.
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May 7, 2017 21:55
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Widow and hanzo are pick-based, though. They have the greatest value early in a team fight, and lose value as a fight progresses. The shorter the teamfight, the greater impact they have.
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May 7, 2017 22:01
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Up Circle posted:C'mon m8, you can construct that scenario for any character/role in the game. a player not working well with his team or a team not reacting to the picks a player gets or any possible permutation of teams not working well together is the foundation of quickplay. It's there to illustrate that it's entirely possible to get kills and not contribute to actually winning in a meaningful sense, just like it's dirt simple to farm gold medals for damage by spraying chip damage everywhere or shooting Rein's shield all day long. quote:someone just called ana a good example of a sniper class. Ana is unironically the best sniper in the game and also one of the best characters in the game so I'm not sure what the problem is.
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May 7, 2017 22:38
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Kai Tave posted:
In what world...
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May 7, 2017 22:43
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I love snipers, Junkrat is my favorite character
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May 7, 2017 22:48
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Constantine XI posted:In what world... The world where you want to win more than you lose.
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May 7, 2017 22:49
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Constantine XI posted:In what world... Do you not remember the triple/quad tank meta hell ana single handed created
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May 7, 2017 22:48
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Constantine XI posted:In what world... Ana is the best sniper in the game, but for reasons unrelated to her sniper capabilities.
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May 7, 2017 22:49
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Theta Zero posted:Ana is the best sniper in the game, but for reasons unrelated to her sniper capabilities. The fact that as a support she could take a brief moment from healing people and splashing them with one of the most powerful debuffs in the game to quickscope triple-tap aerial Pharahs (until her most recent damage debuff) meant that even though she wasn't getting sick MLG headshots she was still a pretty good sniper, who also happened to have one of the best anti-flanker abilities in the game in her kit along with a 6 second hard stun which made diving her much more of an iffy proposition than diving your average Widowmaker.
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May 7, 2017 22:55
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Big Mad Drongo posted:The main problem with bad snipers is that while they kill enemies perfectly fine (in relation to bad whatever else), they don't provide a meatshield for the enemy to shoot instead of you. bad snipers will at least feed less than bad tanks really anyone playing their hero poorly is going to be a detriment to your team, it's just easy to rage at snipers because they don't look like they're doing anything, but: bad tanks will feed and let people die anyway bad support will let your team die when they could have saved them bad non-sniper dps is going to feed the enemy supports a ton of ult charge by not finishing kills in general worry less about your team's hero picks and more about your own play phthalocyanine fucked around with this message at 23:03 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 22:57
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Kai Tave posted:It's there to illustrate that it's entirely possible to get kills and not contribute to actually winning in a meaningful sense, just like it's dirt simple to farm gold medals for damage by spraying chip damage everywhere or shooting Rein's shield all day long. whats your point? you already said that and you already know that the same is true for literally every single arbitrary counting stat that exists in the game and every character
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May 7, 2017 23:55
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Kai Tave posted:The fact that as a support she could take a brief moment from healing people and splashing them with one of the most powerful debuffs in the game to quickscope triple-tap aerial Pharahs (until her most recent damage debuff) meant that even though she wasn't getting sick MLG headshots she was still a pretty good sniper, who also happened to have one of the best anti-flanker abilities in the game in her kit along with a 6 second hard stun which made diving her much more of an iffy proposition than diving your average Widowmaker. you mean ana was the best character in the game? whats that have to do with her being the best sniper other than she also has a scope?
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May 7, 2017 23:59
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Up Circle posted:you mean ana was the best character in the game? Depends on your criteria for "best sniper." Is Ana the best at getting the headshoots across the map? Not in the slightest. But she has a hitscan sniper rifle with a scope which can burst heal her team across the map, which is a very significant contribution.
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May 8, 2017 00:14
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Theta Zero posted:Depends on your criteria for "best sniper." Is Ana the best at getting the headshoots across the map? Not in the slightest. But she has a hitscan sniper rifle with a scope which can burst heal her team across the map, which is a very significant contribution. no my criteria for best sniper does not include that
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May 8, 2017 00:20
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It's Hanzo.
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May 8, 2017 00:42
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Up Circle posted:no my criteria for best sniper does not include that When people say Ana's the best sniper, they're not talking about pure damage output or how easily the character can rack up kills at range, they're saying that when you look at the characters kits as a whole Ana is by far the best character out of those that can snipe. Obviously Widow and Hanzo are better at actually getting picks, but what people are saying is that she's the best character in the sniper category, not that she's the best at sniping.
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May 8, 2017 00:51
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Doomfist is going to be a sniper tank
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May 8, 2017 01:08
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Melee brawl sniper
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May 8, 2017 01:14
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EMC posted:Doomfist is going to be a sniper tank Doomfist is going to be a melee sniper.
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May 8, 2017 01:22
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he's gonna have the rocket fist from mgs5
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May 8, 2017 01:30
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Theta Zero posted:Doomfist is going to be a melee sniper. He has a scope on his fist, if you land a head shot it then you roll across the map in midair like Blanka from SF and punch them in the face
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May 8, 2017 01:34
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ImPureAwesome posted:Do you not remember the triple/quad tank meta hell ana single handed created That's splitting hairs. For best support or even best character you have me on board, but if you were to try and do Widow's and Hanzo's role with her I respectfully disagree.
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May 8, 2017 02:33
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Constantine XI posted:That's splitting hairs. For best support or even best character you have me on board, but if you were to try and do Widow's and Hanzo's role with her I respectfully disagree. If for nothing else, the allies getting in your goddamn way when you're trying to snipe someone
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May 8, 2017 02:50
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Wrist Watch posted:When people say Ana's the best sniper, they're not talking about pure damage output or how easily the character can rack up kills at range, they're saying that when you look at the characters kits as a whole Ana is by far the best character out of those that can snipe. I'm actually willing to bet that the average Ana pre damage nerf got more kills than the average Widowmaker.
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May 8, 2017 02:55
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Kai Tave posted:I'm actually willing to bet that the average Ana pre damage nerf got more kills than the average Widowmaker. Well yes of course, considering Ana is statistically probably more played than Widowmaker is.
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May 8, 2017 03:11
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Constantine XI posted:Well yes of course, considering Ana is statistically probably more played than Widowmaker is. I wasn't really talking in terms of the overall population of Ana players vs. the overall population of Widowmaker players (which yes, I don't think Widowmaker broke higher than like a 10-12% pickrate at any tier last competitive season, comparing things that way would be obviously lopsided), I mean that if you compare the average given Ana player to the average given Widowmaker player that you probably don't start seeing a sharp breakaway in killcount until you get to the skill ranks that are a minority of the overall playerbase.
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May 8, 2017 03:15
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Constantine XI posted:Well yes of course, considering Ana is statistically probably more played than Widowmaker is. I'm not sure that this would have an impact on their average kill numbers
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May 8, 2017 03:16
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Kai Tave posted:I wasn't really talking in terms of the overall population of Ana players vs. the overall population of Widowmaker players (which yes, I don't think Widowmaker broke higher than like a 10-12% pickrate at any tier last competitive season, comparing things that way would be obviously lopsided), I mean that if you compare the average given Ana player to the average given Widowmaker player that you probably don't start seeing a sharp breakaway in killcount until you get to the skill ranks that are a minority of the overall playerbase. Ah okay, point taken then.
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May 8, 2017 03:28
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Kai Tave posted:I'm actually willing to bet that the average Ana pre damage nerf got more kills than the average Widowmaker. In 1v1s and against characters trying to flank them Ana probably wins even post nerf just because of how op her grenade is, but in terms of actual sniping I'd be hard pressed to agree. I mean, Widow's only good at one thing but she's really loving good at it and gets to do it all match instead of healing teammates and stuff. Plus her ult makes picking off people as they come around corners and such super simple.
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May 8, 2017 04:00
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EMC posted:He has a scope on his fist, if you land a head shot it then you roll across the map in midair like Blanka from SF and punch them in the face I would never play any other hero.
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May 8, 2017 04:04
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junkrat is the best sniper because he can snipe around corners
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May 8, 2017 04:15
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Wrist Watch posted:In 1v1s and against characters trying to flank them Ana probably wins even post nerf just because of how op her grenade is, but in terms of actual sniping I'd be hard pressed to agree. I mean, Widow's only good at one thing but she's really loving good at it and gets to do it all match instead of healing teammates and stuff. Plus her ult makes picking off people as they come around corners and such super simple. Widowmaker the character has all the potential in the world to go on an unstoppable rampage but in the hands of an average player I doubt that she's as effective because the average player simply isn't going to be that great at reliably and repeatedly landing the critical headshots necessary to do so. Prior to her rifle's damage nerf I'm pretty sure that Ana and a Widow landing bodyshots had the same DPS more or less, with Ana having a slight advantage due to the fact that she can actually quickscope while Widowmaker has to wait for her rifle to charge first. Can you land headshots repeatedly? Great, Widowmaker becomes much better at killing people, but most people are more inconsistent than that.
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May 8, 2017 04:19
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Kerrrrrrr posted:junkrat is the best sniper because he can snipe around corners Sounds like someone needs to be blind scattershot a few dozen more times
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May 8, 2017 04:21
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Kai Tave posted:Widowmaker the character has all the potential in the world to go on an unstoppable rampage but in the hands of an average player I doubt that she's as effective because the average player simply isn't going to be that great at reliably and repeatedly landing the critical headshots necessary to do so. Prior to her rifle's damage nerf I'm pretty sure that Ana and a Widow landing bodyshots had the same DPS more or less, with Ana having a slight advantage due to the fact that she can actually quickscope while Widowmaker has to wait for her rifle to charge first. Can you land headshots repeatedly? Great, Widowmaker becomes much better at killing people, but most people are more inconsistent than that. Not only that, but they are less likely to participate in objectives. The perfect Widow would be a head-shooting monstrosity that babysits the cart. In reality they are playing a personal game of duck hunt that isn't fun for the receiving end and shouldn't be in a game that's about short to mid range brawling.
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May 8, 2017 05:39
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ImPureAwesome posted:Sounds like someone needs to be blind scattershot a few dozen more times i was trying to forget
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May 8, 2017 05:57
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To be honest not every character needs to have a huge amount of time on the objective. If a Tracer or Genji or even a Soldier has minimal objective time that isn't inherently a sign that they're not pulling their weight, while a character with high objective time isn't fundamentally being a "better player" because there are, believe it or not, times where huddling on the point or hugging the payload isn't doing you as much good as venturing elsewhere to take care of business. I'm not even really interested in the "snipers don't participate in the objective" argument because after a while spent on the game I actually don't think this is as huge a factor as it's made out to be, or at least it's far more contextual than it's treated. By far the bigger drawback of snipers imo is their inconsistency at various levels of play. If every Widowmaker could open up every teamfight with a quick couple of picks then they'd absolutely be worth their weight in gold, but below a certain skill threshold this doesn't happen reliably, and Widowmaker (like a lot of snipers) is very feast-or-famine. If you aren't landing those headshots then you aren't really bringing what makes you powerful to the table.
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May 8, 2017 05:58
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Kai Tave posted:To be honest not every character needs to have a huge amount of time on the objective. If a Tracer or Genji or even a Soldier has minimal objective time that isn't inherently a sign that they're not pulling their weight, while a character with high objective time isn't fundamentally being a "better player" because there are, believe it or not, times where huddling on the point or hugging the payload isn't doing you as much good as venturing elsewhere to take care of business. I'm not even really interested in the "snipers don't participate in the objective" argument because after a while spent on the game I actually don't think this is as huge a factor as it's made out to be, or at least it's far more contextual than it's treated. basically yes but that's mostly because everyone is bad. it's just high risk/reward, but I think the value of actually getting a pick to open up an attack when your team is on offense makes it worth it. even a bad player can land 1 headshot and if they make it happen at the right time they can turn any fight Up Circle fucked around with this message at 06:35 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 06:32
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Up Circle posted:even a bad player can land 1 headshot and if they make it happen at the right time they can turn any fight But to paraphrase your own argument from earlier you could say this about any character in the game (maybe not literally one headshot but one fortuitously timed kill with a wild Junkrat grenade or a solid helix rocket or a Roadhog hook combo) and it's just as true, and as you yourself point out snipers are inherently high risk/high reward. At the level most people play at, taking a gamble that you'll see more high reward than high risk could very well be argued to be a bad decision if you're interested in winning the game period versus "I want to practice my Widowmaker." I think if you really want to focus on getting a pick to open things up that more people would likely get more mileage out of Roadhog who has multiple avenues to getting picks on top of good self-sustain, who can also double as a shieldbuster in a pinch.
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May 8, 2017 06:42
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Kai Tave posted:Widowmaker the character has all the potential in the world to go on an unstoppable rampage but in the hands of an average player I doubt that she's as effective because the average player simply isn't going to be that great at reliably and repeatedly landing the critical headshots necessary to do so. Prior to her rifle's damage nerf I'm pretty sure that Ana and a Widow landing bodyshots had the same DPS more or less, with Ana having a slight advantage due to the fact that she can actually quickscope while Widowmaker has to wait for her rifle to charge first. Can you land headshots repeatedly? Great, Widowmaker becomes much better at killing people, but most people are more inconsistent than that. Uh, if they had the sameish DPS without headshots, doesn't the advantage go to the character that has the capability to headshot dudes who also has an ability that lets her easily get to high places, making headshots a little easier to land? And again, if we're talking about a player with the same skill level on both characters, is Ana just ignoring her team to spend the match sniping? How else is she competing in number kills with a character that doesn't have to worry about that in the first place? We're just making up hypotheticals at this point though, I'm not disagreeing with you that Widow's super specialized kit is the weaker of the two and Ana's damage already got nerfed so it kind of doesn't matter.
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May 8, 2017 07:30
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